"Maybe I don’t look as conventionally beautiful in these outfits, but I can see very clearly who I am."

I think perhaps that is the meaning of YSL's "silent clothes." If I'm understanding it correctly, Skylurker? Or...perhaps not quite. Because Liz's version is about how the wearer sees herself. YSL's remains about how the world views the wearer. The wearer is objectified, still.

I prefer Liz's formulation. I would love for fashion to be (primarily) about how I feel in my clothes -- although naturally, of course, without question, how I feel is always and forever shaped by my environment and enculturation -- which in my case included some fairly aggressive lessons in "how to be a girl in consumer society." I can't escape those messages completely, not at my age. And not in my income bracket. (The two are not irrelevant. If I were younger -- like my daughter -- I could probably find a place for myself a little easier as an outlier. And if I could afford bespoke perhaps I could afford to speak louder than my clothes which would, nevertheless, inevitably speak volumes). But as things are, at least I can interrogate myself, continually question what is really right for me -- and meanwhile keep an open mind and an unpoisoned eye about others and how they choose to present themselves.

Skipping ahead to your photos.. a big YES! I love your aesthetic.

I've always admired your style, it's coherence, modernity while celebrating retro elements, thoughtfulness and advanced understanding of design and fashion history and agree with everything lisap wrote.

Like any other art form I think fashion is highly context driven, and meaning comes out of process, but also the intended audience being communicated with. I think we all have different intended audiences (a traditional potter and a conceptual sculptor might both make things out of clay, but the markets for their work are very different.)

I also agree that all clothing communicates something, even if it's 'I'm blending in with my suburban surroundings, nothing to see here, move along' - there are still messages about age and economic status, and even very mainstream looks communicate information which may or may not accurately reflect the personality and interests of the person wearing the clothes. It's as much about disguise as statement of intent sometimes I think.

I've been thinking about over-sized clothes because they have been so omnipresent on the runway, and in street style looks that are heavily influenced by the runway, and yet no matter how many articles are written about the death of skinny jeans, it looks to me like more bodycon and tailored looks are still at peak saturation at retail and seem to be the dominant silhouette outside of the edgy creative districts of cities (at least in the US).

I think like a lot of others have mentioned, some has to do with materials, and stretchy fabrics being easier to fit over myriad body types, and some has to do with the visual skills and experience required to bring all elements into balance with over-sized looks (I'm thinking that haircuts play a big part of it too). Caro, Deborah from Oz and you (to name a few) seem have an innate understanding of how to work with volume and the edges of where volume meets the body and how it's draped. The overall look is highly compelling and sculptural -- and fits with both body and personality.

I enjoy your posts and your style. I try to have an open mind about all fashion. All. It is easy for me to like edgy, out of the mainstream looks. I find the oversized look creative and it intrigues me. I agree that the face of the models in the COS post was highlighted because of the drape of the clothes. You do a much better job. Your style shows who you are. The oversized look does need to be done in quality fabrics and with attention to detail.
I am interested in fashion and gender roles. Why do women have to look a certain way? Why is there an ideal look? I think about this a lot. It is a part of my work. I worked with adolescents who had eating disorders for many years.
I feel about fashion the way I feel about many things. People can dress how they want and in a way that expresses themselves and makes them happy. Or in a functional way. It is up to them. And I will support them.

I have enjoyed this thread very much, and I loved your photos Approprio. I have limited knowledge of the art or science or history of fashion design, and I cannot offer much here.

What I do know is that I love to see people comfortable, confident and authentic in their clothes, and their identity, and their appearance, whatever their age or shape or location. It is especially wonderful when that translates to being interesting and unique as with your style Liz.

I you have an innate way of putting things together. Your style is truly artistic. You look confident and put together. If I saw you on the street I would look twice because of the confidence you exude.
Please continue to show us your looks.
If everyone dressed the same it would be a boring world.

The idea of silent clothing is one that could occupy me for years. The comparison between the silence of good health and good clothing intriguing. I think the quote means things are good when they are not bothering you. A good outfit may be forgotten by the wearer once it's on.

Also, I have noticed today I don't do oversized that much. When I do, it's with outer layers. I probably do clunky looking things more specifically than oversized. AND I think I spend so little time in oversized mainly because of my work. My clothing needs to be close to the body so I don't get caught in any machines and such. I will wear a skirt in the height of summer on the production floor of the bakery, but it will be a straight one...

I love the Japanese look which is about texture and style. The Japanese do it so well. We've just had a Japanese student staying and I loved her outfits which were very different from what you normally see in suburban NZ. The other two who I think do it well are the two on advanced style? Valarie and Jean? I think they are influenced by Japanese design too. I really liked your style from what I saw in these pics.
I've seen a few posts here discussing about women dressing conventionally attractive etc. I have been thinking a lot lately about this whole thing about women getting older etc and invisible and how they are expected to dress. I will admit that i swayed by what is conventionally attractive when dressing myself because it's been beaten into me. I remember at 16 cutting my hair really short and my father saying "that looks awful. You don't look feminine" and my sister wearing a jumpsuit and another family member commenting that "it really did nothing for her figure. " I'm fighting my own upbringing and society..probably why I've gone back running to at least get a strong body instead of worrying about how it looks in clothes all the time. Hope that makes sense.

I am trying to sort out this thread in my head.
If I understood your original post correctly, you are not arguing that anyone else should start wearing oversized silhouettes (indeed you suggest it would be quite difficult given the lack of good foundation pieces readily available) but rather feeling that your choice to do so is less acceptable somehow. It is the case that the most conventionally flattering outfits will garner the most praise on the forum and probably in most lives, but I for one appreciate your outfits tremendously - as I have tried to make clear. And I do think there are lots of women here that admire your style, not just me.
As for Foucault vs. YSL, I think they just represent different stages of the same thing. Your identity and your body is the locus of competing claims ala Foucault (more or less) but the ultimate power grab is to dress where our clothes integrate seamlessly (;)) with our identity and thus become invisible as things in themselves empowering the designer/blogger/retailer/business interest that would like to control them and instead become part of we the wearer.
Regardless, Skylurker, my friend, you are not invisible.
Wonderful thread, thanks!

@Rachylou : exactly, thanks for the translation - I see you read French fluently.

Clothes can bother you physically, because they're not well made or not adapted to your body. With brands advertising a lot these days, not only about the ideal female shape, also about lifestyles, concepts, political ideas...I find clothes can bother me psychologically, too.

Of course, Shevia is right, we can reclaim them, appropriate them, that's what personal style is about.

Sorry, Liz, I went on a tangent and hijacked the thread.
I'll shut up now

I read your post with great interest, and I am surprised you sounded almost apologetic for your style choice.
You style is totally different compared to mine, yet I love to check your posts and outfits because they are beautiful and clever, IMO.
I think there is no general "right" when talking about style. There is right for the person, right now, and you seem to have what is right for you at this moment very clear.
I hope to see more of your outfits, and your creations too!

@skylurker - Ah, if only! I think your point about psychological comfort is well made. I was thinking more about the 'introvert ideal' and the idea of silent clothes. It's not that we want to be invisible; it's that we don't want to be exposed to discomfort. It is discomfort that makes for the most ruckus.

Shevia - this is brilliant and I'm saving it for posterity: the ultimate power grab is to dress where our clothes integrate seamlessly (;)) with our identity and thus become invisible as things in themselves empowering the designer/blogger/retailer/business interest that would like to control them and instead become part of we the wearer.

Brilliant because to be comfortable in all ways isn't always simple. I require my clothes to entertain me - it's one of the ways I keep myself awake. But, for example, my rarely done Femme Fatale mode I can only do when I've got patience. It's entertaining for me, but it garners solicitousness (sp?) from others which requires it in return. Most of the time I'm too American for that, lol.

Lastly, I have had a thought about being an 'older woman' and invisibility. I feel that as I've gotten older I'm less visible for my cuteness and more visible for my command. And in some ways, this is simply less of a thrill...but I really don't want to be bothered by the attentions of others to my cuteness.

Oh my. This is why YLF is streets ahead of any other fashion site out there. Ladies, you can't see Manrepeller for dust right now. Angie, thanks once again for hosting this amazing space.

The "poison eye to a minimum" is the best rule ever. When we overcome that we can find a richer appreciation for other people's style (I was swooning yesterday over goldenpig's matchy matchy) and a deeper understanding of our own. I've been doing it all my life and it's all about training the eye.

Una: go rock those sack dresses in Vegas! The bodycon ladies are all eyeing your hair with envy Thanks for championing the oversized here on YLF.

Jules: crossing those cultural norms is a difficult one. I appreciate the freedom I have to do so, but at the same time I see the importance of dressing for one's environment. One of my big frustrations with the fashion industry is that I don't think they always take this into account, as was made clear in the recent BR thread.

Firecracker: I think you and I have quite a similar approach and I always like your sense of adventure. Go team harem pants! You're right though, part of this is knowing what suits you, from the inside out. My shoes would probably be even weirder if I thought I could pull it off...

lisap: I'd encourage anyone to look beyond what's in the shops! One of the problems I have with this trend is that it's difficult to wear and it's being sold pretty hard, which I think can devalue it. That's a pity, because done right it can be very effective.

Which brings me to Caro and Deborah, who totally rock it! There's a lot of unnecessary baggage about this being an "old/large lady" look. It also creates a feeling of retreat or concealment, which is in conflict with Western humanist ideas about the body. There's an element of disguise to it. Does that make people suspicious of it, I wonder?

And is that the same as skylurker's silent clothing? Maybe that's why I like Uniqlo so much. There's a lot of that in normcore too, but it's impossible to get dressed without saying anything. I sometimes fret about my clothes drawing attention, and I suppose that's one reason why I feel the need to apologise for them. It's complicated.

shevia: well, there's definitely been some debate about the merits of covering up! I've been called out here before for not displaying my womanly figure or wearing chunky shoes or whatever. There's no doubt that this kind of concealment draws criticism and it's worth exploring why we do that. But your power-grab... I'm bookmarking that!

rachylou: you make an interesting point about gender roles regarding youth and age. Female fertility plays a part in this. I don't dress to with the intention of looking sexy but I still get enough attention (at my age!) to make me want to look explicitly un-sexy sometimes. That's definitely part of the appeal: I can look strong, cool, fun and smart without necessarily making myself available.

Suz: "how to be a girl enculturation" nails it for me. That is very hard to get past, for any of us, regardless of our background. There's so much pressure and the goalposts keep moving. We can never win.

Thanks so much to everyone for such a rich debate. I'm sorry I haven't replied to all these comments, it's hard to do with so much to think about! I'll probably come back when I've thought about it some more...

Back with some more ruminations, and picking up a few things I missed on the first pass...

Vix: ah yes, the Male Gaze. So glad you mentioned it. It’s problematic, isn’t it? Female beauty is most definitely worth celebrating, but you’ve got to ask yourself why you’re being looked at in the first place.

Speaking of Japanese fashion, I’ve been lapping up a load of cultural theory on the subject lately, and one thing that came up is that Japanese men are far more attuned to the idea of being looked at, specifically by women (they have some great men’s fashion to prove it.) That puts a Female Gaze into the equation. Even though their dress is in general quite gender normative, there’s a blurring of the boundaries that brings a lot more androgynous styles into play, particularly among younger people. I’ve long thought menswear should be more like womenswear and vice versa, and hey, that’s exactly what they seem to be doing in Japan. No wonder I’m so in love with it.

lisap: “the ideal garment doesn't define the wearer ; rather she defines it” …that seems like the perfect definition of “silent clothes”! But I’d question the extent to which this is possible, because ultimately we’re all open to the interpretation of whichever of those pesky Gazes we’re subject to, in the context of our environment and its norms, requirements and expectations. I can think of a few pieces that fit the bill, like a perfect blazer or a plain white tee, but don’t we need a little more than that? Maybe we need a whole new thread on the subject.

But… back to the topic in hand.

I think the sculptural quality is all important here. I love what rabbit says about the spaces between the body and the garment. Materials rendered without the structure of tailoring are more subject to gravity and motion; draping is key. These boxy forms don’t hang well without close attention to how fabric behaves in action.

Diana, I think that’s one of many reasons why it’s not translating well to the mass market. I totally agree with you about that, by the way. And I like the sound of your friend’s tiny high quality wardrobe. That's another Platonic ideal I have no hope of achieving....

You should never apologize for your style. It's what makes you you. Each of us has to figure out what works best for us based on our lifestyles, careers, body type and personality. In the end, you need to feel great in what you wear. It really is an emotional thing.

Love shevia's idea of reclaiming, making a power grab. One of the things I've thought about thrifting and buying second hand, is that it leaves out the original producer and retailer and makes items available on a quite different timetable, to women of a much broader economic background. The revenue also goes to support very different kinds of organizations or local (often women owned) businesses. Also with restyling and reconstructing and having so many different eras at your fingertips at once, there is much more emphasis on the role of the purchaser as the stylist, and more leeway for very individualized personal styles.

It's also really interesting how the same outfit can have contradictory internal meanings to the wearer. It can feel both like concealment and like standing out. Is over-sized clothing designed to take up more space than the outlines of the human figure about disguise, or about having a larger physical presence, or both at once?

I was pondering heels, because I've been wearing more high heeled boots. On the one hand there is an element of artificiality/traditional feminine sexual ideals/slightly hindered movement (harder to sprint across a parking lot and avoid a rain shower), on the other, I'm suddenly taller and since I'm fairly tall to begin with find myself seeing over the heads of other women in a crowd and looking straight into (or down into) the eyes of men when I talk to them, and there is a strange power in having that viewpoint.

Heh, It's like when you run into a cougar walking along a backwoods trail, you try to make yourself look larger and taller to scare it off, a kind of primitive 'I'm not prey' statement.

I will tell you that I am very much a fashion follower and do not like to stand out! That's the only reason I don't wear ultra-oversized things.

Otherwise, I totally would! I think the Japanese streetstyle is completely, completely fabulous. I think the way they wear their oversized clothing is awesome. I think it's fresh and really, so much fun!

I wish I lived in a more fashion-forward city where I wouldn't stand out so much for wearing something a little different.

My own, small, tiny, insigificant thing I'm doing to set myself apart, fashion wise, is I'm wearing bodycon tops this year. Bodycon anything is quite out of style, I'd say, so I do look a little different from everybody else in their flowy, oversized tops.

I am late to this, and don't have time to really respond as fully and thoughtfully as I would like to, but I do want to quickly say a few things. Liz, I LOVE your style and only wish I had the body shape and self-confidence to go more outside my box of psychological comfort as well as you do. But who's to say that such looks would work on me even if I magically attained the IT-ish body and attitude to match such a style? I have an entirely different location, life, body, history, and personality.

This is why I love YLF and also think that styles that are a bit more of "outliers" here are so necessary and valuable. It helps all of us challenge our norms and define our own styles. I bet there have been many instances where we start by seeing someone like you wearing something outside of our norm that appeals to us somehow, but we don't know how to emulate some part of it. But by continual exposure to ideas and looks that challenge our norms, we grow and evolve. And I believe that happens even if we don't personally change our own styles -- at the very least, our eyes and minds are open to more ideas and possibilities. That is one of the things about art, design and fashion that appeals to me so much.

Keep on rocking on, Liz. You inspire me! And clearly, I'm not the only one.

I don't have much to add, but I'm highly enjoying this thread. I'm not introspective by nature, so I'm finding others thoughts on this subject very interesting. I think the quality of the fabric and tailoring is very apparent in the pieces you're wearing in your photos. That, in addition to, your confidence and personality makes your outfits look fabulous.

I'll add one more personal perspective on the "oversize" thing. I do think that I have gained some appreciation for this look that has filtered into my own style. Witness the 3.1 Phillip Lim oversized vest that I love and wear. Maybe because it is a vest and I can choose otherwise structured and/or fitted items to "rein in" the look on me, it manages to push my personal boundaries but still makes me feel fab and very much "like me."

I don't think anyone else has posted this link so here goes:

http://thatsnotmyage.com/style.....-magazine/

It is beautifully relevant to our very interesting discussion here on this post.

Ha, Sheila, relevant indeed, and it was posted today, what a fun coincidence ! Thanks for sharing.

Oups, I forgot I promised to shut up

Very relevant Sheila, I guess clothes do not need to shout when the message is clear.

After thinking this over some more I believe the High Street will always struggle to deliver an avant grade look because by its nature it is not relevant to the masses.

Also, for a High Street store to translate a look from a petite Japanese frame to a taller and broader Western European/ Nordic frame whilst keeping the price to a minimum and offering widespread distribution is headache inducing.

I think you navigate this territory very well Liz because you have the knowledge and skill to succeed.

I love this conversation. I understand this idea of good clothing being silent in the way good health is -- the owner can take them for granted - but clothes speak anyway, I think, just as health does. Or youth, for that matter.

I want to frame what Shevia said!!

The definition of a stylish outfit is one that you loved the look of in the mirror, and that you forgot about for the rest of the day. To Shevia's point where the outfit becomes invisible or "silent" because it's authentically you.

Thanks, Approprio, for a fascinating thread. I've been debating whether or not to jump in, though, because I'm not sure there is much I could add to the discussion about the need for authenticity, personal boundries, and appreciation for alternative aesthetics.

But (and you knew there would be a "but", didn't you. ) I think there is one area that hasn't really been explored which was germane to my original post--the equality and liberation which volume and androgyny could offer women. Take a look at this video:
https://vimeo.com/channels/kaliyana/75610559

What struck me when I first saw this advertisement for Kaliyana was the revolutionary idea of wearing clothing which didn't depend on a female silhouette to give the garments shape or interest. If outlining was eliminated, a woman could be any shape or size--pear, rectangle, size 20 or a size 2, broad-shouldered or broad-hipped, busty or boyish--under her clothes. Coverage and volume would be a product of design, not for concealment or modesty, but there to let me twirl and swirl instead of trying to hide the wobbly bits. And the practical aspect: ordering online would be a snap since the number would depend on how much volume or drape a person wanted--I could order a size 4 and my skinny friend could opt for a size 14. No returns. Weight loss, or gain, would be unimportant because everything could be easily adjusted. And there wouldn't be much point in comparing my thighs and waistline to others, so no discussions about thunder thighs, middle-age spread, and wobbly upper arms accompanied by too much wine.

Is it this kind of equality the Japanese designers, the Langenlook cohort, COS, and other avant-garde designers dangle in front of us? Why the resistance--the " well, it's great for you, but I couldn't" reaction. Is it that radical or subversive to downplay and, gasp, even hide, our female attributes from the gaze of others? Might it make it hard for someone to figure out how to interact with me if my age, shape, and gender wasn't easily discernible? Would strangers have to learn more before they could figure how to stereotype me?

As I said, just musing....

I don't know much about fashion (esp all the names being discussed, it is just going way over my head) so not sure I can contribute much to this discussion, but I just wanted to say I've always loved your style! Quirky and interesting and love the shapes and textures you use! I do love Japanese style and the mix of minimalism and maximalism, avant garde and cute kitsch. But I would say ultra oversized is hard to do unless you have that self-confidence to carry it off and just the right aesthetic. Otherwise you run the risk of people thinking you're fat, or worse, pregnant! When I wore my loose fitting Vince shirtdress, one of my patients asked me if I was pregnant! I thought I looked pretty good in that one, but bleh, that's not fun when people ask you when you're due! The oversized look has to look impeccable and intentional and you have to have that confident attitude. That's why it works so well on you! (And thanks for saying you like my matchy matchy outfits, by the way!) Glad that you're here. Life would be too boring if everyone dressed the same!

I've been buried in the books recently, studying for a challenging board exam, and completely missed Gaylene's thread (love her posts), and have only now had time to read through this one.

I'll need to mull over the fashion philosophy for awhile, and don't have time to answer them fully today, in any case. However, I wanted to pop on and encourage to continue bringing your style and musings to the forum. Sometimes, when someone responds unfavorably to something I've worn, I remind myself that they may be just learning how to engage honestly in an active thread, and may not always get the balance right -- and I also know that someone will tell me they don't like something only when they think they've come to "know" me a bit. A "nay" vote may be a sign that I'm actually more a "part" of the group than I was befre.

Your style is wonderfully bold, and doesn't sit on the center of the bell curve (I'm studying statistics at the moment, can you tell?). But isn't that marvelous -- to represent and share a style that isn't in every Banana Republic ad that appears in my inbox? Being in the 99.7% (That's three deviations above the mean, or pure fabulousness in statistics, btw) makes it even more imperative that you share what you're exploring with the rest of us! And it makes the forum so much more fun!

My own style may be far more conventional than yours, but you remind me to explore the pure deliciousness of fabrication in my clothing, and the power of structure in construction, particularly when paired with draping. Please keep it coming!

I love this thread.

Gaylene, thanks for bringing your wisdom and erudition to the converstaion! Beyond delighted that you joined us

I agree with you that the idea of eliminating the feminine silhouette feels quite radical, even though it's by no means new. In Western terms, it goes all the way back to the early feminists of the Dress Reform Movement. As Alyson points out over at TNMA (thanks for the link Sheila!) it's rarely been particularly trendy, so it's never been "out" either. However, current incarnations are quite explicit in their rejection of gender binaries, like this stuff over at Sixty Nine. I won't deny this radicalism appeals to me.

The Shirin Guild stuff is gorgeous. I was intrigued by Alyson's description of this look as "cross-cultural". What's she implying here? I'm not quite sure, because it doesn't read that way to me. These forms have been a feature of avant-garde sportswear for years, from Yamamoto to Calvin Klein to Martin Margiela to Rick Owens.

This makes me think there may be a semiotic component to the lack of uptake in the US. There's no doubt that whatever the aesthetic merits, it carries with it certain messages. What reads as modern urban sophistication in Europe may read elsewhere as covering up the fat bits, or an immoral rejection of masculine/feminine archetypes, or the appropriation of another culture by privileged white people, or just too unconventional and unfamiliar. Take your pick.

(goldenpig, I'm reminded of a colleague once asking me if I was pregnant. I wasn't of course, I just liked the shape. And I wasn't offended in the least - she was pregnant herself and wanted some fashion tips. )

I'm in reasonable shape for my age and I can imagine many people here wondering why on earth I'd want to disguise long legs and a cute butt in baggy dropped crotch trousers. The answer is that like many others here on this forum I'd rather claim my space in society with brains and character than with physical attributes and this is how I choose to do it. We've talked about that before. I identify with rabbit's comment about using voluminous shapes to make myself look bigger. I've used high heels that way too.

At the end of the day though, it's absolutely true that I dress this way because I can. I often feel awkward and ungainly in what many would consider conventionally flattering, but I've lost count of the times I've reached for that "hard to wear" piece in the shop, and heard approvingly from the sales assistant "Not many people can pull that off!" It all comes down to good old fashioned figure flattery. In that respect, Janet, I guess I'm a little envious of you too.

And skylurker, no need to shut up. You know how I enjoy our little chats