OT-Question for dog people about a maybe new puppy - YouLookFab Forum

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OT-Question for dog people about a maybe new puppy

Patty

Veteran

My husband has an eye on a new puppy. It will be a surprise for the kids.
Can anyone here tell me about this mix---Sheltie/Lab/wire hair Shitsu. I know Labs shed and both Sheltie and Lab have fur, is Shitsu fur or hair? What I don't want is a barking, snivelling, shedding, table shark, that won't heel. But really I'm concerned for shedding (for son's allergy to dog fur but not dog hair) and medical concerns.
We had a Bishon for 14 yrs who had the whole Bishon thing--cataracts, skin problems and diabetic needing injected insulin and we miss Finny like crazy!!
I'd like to know if any of you dog people have a handle on any of these dog traits! I'm sure my blind cat (likes dogs tho) would appreciate it too!

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24 replies

Latest reply was from Patty

Isis

Veteran

I would love to know if hybrids are predictable. In other words, couldn't you end up with worst qualities of all the breeds? But maybe you can at least tell already whether it will shed or not?

We have a mutt and his ancestoral breeds are a topic of endless conversation!

ADORABLE puppy!!!!!!!!

Patty

Veteran

Yeah--I know hybrids are not predictable--I'd have to say that If we didn't know where the dog was coming from I'd call this one a mutt too --love Heinz 57s but I am so on the fence because of the allergy thing, never had to deal with that before--Bichons are hypo allergenic. I have asked for more info on the parents.

catgirl

Veteran

CUTEST PUPPY EVAR! I am all for mixed breed dogs - they are often much healthier and mentally balanced.

I know Shelties are smart but can be high-strung neurotic barkers. the lab side should balance that out some, although purebred labs can be obsessive about fetching. I am pretty sure Shih-tzus (?!) are relatively allergy-free, so hair? But it's the dander that affects people is my understanding.

Steph

Veteran

I don't know much about dog breeds, but I'll advise you as I do people with allergies looking to adopt cats from my rescue: take your son to meet the puppy and have him bury his face in the puppy's fur. Also ask the people who have the puppy if they will give you something the puppy has been laying in (a towel, a blanket) and see how your son reacts to those things. Hopefully that will give you a good idea of how he will handle the dog's fur.

Also, and I know this might not be super popular to say, but if you haven't, please make sure that the breeders are responsible. I'm all about rescue, so I would never go to a breeder at all, but I know others do (and if you want to consider it, there are many hypo-allergenic purebreds in rescues and shelters--I would be happy to tell you how to find them). If breeders are for you, please just make sure they are reputable and treat their animals properly. Puppy mills and backyard breeders are horrible and when you buy from them, you just support them in the negative things they do. For all I know, you're all over this, but I know a lot of people have no idea about puppy mills when they purchase, so I wanted to spread the word. If you need more advice on the questions to ask to make sure the breeder is reputable, I am sure others here will have some ideas. I believe RandomThoughts might do some breeding-related stuff, so maybe she could help. (Sorry, RT, if I got that wrong!)

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

OMG. THAT PUPPY. IS AMAZINGLY. CUTE.

All I know about is that Shelties are very smart. Like really annoyingly smart. My ex boyfriend used to have one that would move stools from various areas in the house to the kitchen so that it can jump on the stools to access food on kitchen counters. Smart. But annoyingly so.

Good luck!

Michelle

(website)

Veteran

Fantastic advice from Steph re. the allergy question. It always pains me to hear of people who get a pet, only to give it away or transplant it because of pre-existing allergies that they simply didn't test or account for.
I really hope your son reacts well and you can give the lil guy a home!

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

SO CUTE!!!

Shelties and labs shed a lot. But they are gorgeous breeds with beautiful temperaments. Greg is allergic to cats and long haired dogs. Yorkies are hypoallergenic and do not shed.

Great advice from Steph and Michelle.

lynn

Veteran

I have a bichon/yorkie mix and a Maltese. Neither one sheds and I love that. The sheltie part could be a big problem with allergies and also require a lot of vacuuming. As cute as that puppy is (major adorable), I would hesitate.

Aziraphale

Veteran

First of all, super cute puppy!

However, it's not a mix I've ever heard of. It is very hard to predict the looks and temperament of mixed breed dogs when they're little. You can google all three of those breeds separately and get all sorts of information about them, but that doesn't mean the puppy will turn out like any or all of them.

For what it's worth, the Shih Tzu breed is known for its sweet nature. They have been bred as companion dogs. Labs can be very loving and are receptive to training, but shed all over the place. I think Shelties shed a lot too, and can be very nice dogs but do tend toward being sensitive and anxious.

Whether or not a dog winds up being a tugging, non-heeling table shark really depends on how much effort you put into training it, especially when it's young. Some breeds are certainly more trainable than others, but with a mix, it's hard to predict. In my experience, the only behavioural trait that is VERY hard to train out of certain dogs is the barking; some breeds are just made to yap! And you can't train them to stop barking entirely; you can only really train them to stop barking on command, If you're not home, they will yap away freely at whatever passes the window.

So my verdict is this: that puppy may turn out to be the best, sweetest, most awesome dog ever, or it could be a nightmare. The nightmare scenario is unlikely if you put a lot into training it, however.

If allergies and shedding are an issue, and you really like the idea of a mixed breed dog (and there is certainly some truth to the "hybrid vigor" theory), you might be better off going with one of the many poodle crosses. People love to cross poodles with other breeds because it usually results in non-shedding puppies, and there are many types to choose from. Because this has been done so often, the temperament of the crossbred puppies is much easier to predict, too.

Sorry that was so long. I've had a lot of experience with dogs.

Anonymous

I don't think Shih Tzus shed but mixed with lab/sheltie sounds risky.

Now days every breed is being mixed with a poodle becease of the shedding thing. Non-shedding is supposed to be a dominate trait but we get pleanty of poodle mixes at the kennel that shed.

Wheaton terriers are also non-allergenic.
I do like Stephs idea of testing your son with the puppy first.
I don't know though if you are ready for a dog. Dogs come with issues- a lot of suff like begging, barking and such is training but, like kids problems will arise and it is a commitment.

RandomThoughts (Andrea)

Veteran

Hi Patty - let me first apologize for the novel you are about to read.

A bit about me: I'm a total dog person - professional trainer for a few years now and I've been involved in showing/breeding/rescue for about 18 years. Yes, Steph, you are right! I do breed dogs on very rare occasion.

There is really no way to predict what a mix will be like. They could completely favor any of the breeds in there, have all the best traits, all the worst traits or anything in between. Labs SHED like mad, Shelties are big barkers typically and Shih Tzus can be pretty tough nuts. All are relatively easy to train with the Shih Tzu being the most independent in there.

FYI there is no such breed as a "wire haired Shih Tzu". Shih Tzus are a long coated breed - they grow hair and don't shed. Wire coated dogs typically have very hard coats of short to medium length and typically shed quite a bit.

The things you are concerned about "barking, snivelling, shedding, table shark, that won't heel" are, with the exception of shedding, pretty much all based on training. Any dog will heel if trained to do so and any dog will eventually counter surf given the opportunity.

Una, I will respectfully disagree with you on mixes vs purebreds. A -well- bred purebred is very likely to live a long healthy life and have a great temperament. A badly bred purebred is a HUGE risk. Mixes are just a toss of the dice - anything goes. After all, mixed breed dogs are mixes of purebreds! Their genes didn't mutate in transition. They are all dogs!

The main benefit (well bred) purebred dogs offer is predictability of type. That is, if I am getting a -puppy- and I know I want a dog of a certain size, coat type or general temperament or to do a specific job I am more likely to get that than I would from a random mix breed. This does not mean that they are "better" than mixes. Just easier to predict - that is the whole point of purebred dogs.

Patty, if you are set on a puppy and your son's allergies are a big concern, I would recommend you to get a purebred. What a great sadness it would be if the dog is hard on your son's allergies and you had to rehome him. Adopting an adult dog would be a fabulous option - You'll know what you're getting right away! If you are willing to do what it takes to handle things if the dog does cause an allergic reaction, go for the puppy.

I wold also -very strongly- urge you, if you are going to pay money for a puppy to do your research. CERF, OFA, thyroid testing, etc should all get performed on ALL breeding stock as well as conformation or performance testing even if you yourself are not interested in that at all. It shows the breeder cares about producing healthy dogs that are able to perform their breed function. Good breeders work their dogs.

I'm passionate about this topic! If you would like to contact me privately I would be happy to talk to you about it and help you identify good breeders. There is a fantastic database for known health problems in dog breeds I would be happy to point you toward.

Patty

Veteran

This pup is on offer as a gift from a family who's dog whoops! had puppies so not a puppy mill.
Steph-that's a great idea to check for reaction with the dog's towel!!!! I never thought of that--I know of letting the pup get used to us by sleeping on one of our shirts but never thought of the other way around! As it is tho the dog is 4 hrs away so the plot thickens!!!
Our Bishon became known as Finnegan Begin Again --he may have been hypoallergenic and non shedding but he himself was allergic to cut grass, jumper out of second story windows ate thru a wall and masonite door while we were at work, shredded the sleeve of an Aryn sweater he somehow pulled across the room and into his crate while we were at work, Jumped out of a moving car, had a sudden auto-immunity reaction and near died-twice, had pancreatitis, cataracts, diabetes---and bounced back from everything until Addison' and a tumor did him in--like I said we miss him like CRAZY! I still feel like I see him around out of the corner of my eye--can't leave a white t-shirt on the ground---- ten yrs later. He went everywhere with us and even was the studio dog-----a new dog will be sooooooo different, but of course we are different to,

RandomThoughts (Andrea)

Veteran

I also have lots to say about "poo dogs" and Doodles - if anyone is interested feel free to poke me. I work with a lot of them particularly Golden and LabraDoodles. I do -not- recommend them in general, not to mention that they typically cost upwards of $2K and do not come from health tested breeding stock. The creator of the Labradoodle has since given the project up as a failure because the dogs were not turning out as he'd intended, if that tells you anything.

Aziraphale

Veteran

RandomThought, I'm going to offer anecdotal backup to what you just said about Labradoodles. My uncle and aunt got one and it was an unmitigated disaster. They are competent dog owners, and had owned at least seven or eight dogs over the course of their marriage before they got their Labradoodle. Despite consistent and gentle training, the dog was excitable and difficult to control, and eventually became inexplicably aggressive. They had to part with her when she attacked the care worker who comes to look after my grandmother (who lives next door to them).

You sound like you know what you're talking about when it comes to dog breeds. I haven't had personal experience with all the breeds, but I've worked around dogs and known enough dogs (both mine and those of friends/family/acquaintances) to agree with everything you've said. I made a specific plug for poodle crosses in my earlier post because they solve the shedding problem (and also I'm biased because my current dog is a very sweet cockapoo!); however I wholeheartedly agree that the best way to go when purchasing a puppy is to do your homework and buy a purebred from a reputable breeder. And of course there are a number of purebred species that are non- or low-shedding. I guess all of the "good" poodle crosses I've known have been smaller ones, like terripoos and cockapoos.

RandomThoughts (Andrea)

Veteran

I know -lots- of great "Poo dogs" too. The small poo-crosses that I've known have mostly been crossed with other non-shedding breeds so shedding is sort of 'not gonna happen' there. Frankly, I think pretty much all dogs are great or have the potential to be great but some are easier to "bloom" than others. For instance, I would not generally recommend my own breed for most people either. I LOVE them, but they are not an easy breed of dog. (Basenji)

I actually had a client who had to rehome a Labradoodle due to HUGE shedding - Labs are known for that trait! They already had a Lab whom they adored and really wanted a 2nd dog but their daughter was allergic. They'd hoped to basically get a Lab without the shedding. They so didn't. The Doodle was worse than the Lab! Shows you how things don't always turn out the way you expect whenever you breed but especially in crosses.

This isn't to say they can't be fab dogs - they can be! I just finished working with one I adore. But they are a huge challenge 99% of the time and I would only recommend them to folks who LOVE to train and work with their dog. The Doodle breeders have quite the marketing machine going and I really feel like they fool a lot of people which upsets me. That hurts people and dogs.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Amen!

biscuitsmom

Veteran

Ive had dogs my whole life..close to 50 yrs owning them, several breeds, and the most 'troublesome' one was our Sheltie...beautiful dog, but a near-constant barker...the phone rings-she barked. You enter/exit the room-she barked. You stand up/sit down-she barked, see someone in the street, etc...we got her from my mom's friend (a top breeder-she showed shelties in several states) and she said SO many people had problems with their barking it was quite common to have them undergo surgery to have their voice box removed! We did not do that...nothing we tried (and we tried!) was able to cut down/stop the barking...they are also notorious herders! They will try and 'herd' anyone or especially other animals-which our cats did NOT appreciate! Oh, she shedded a fair amount, but a near daily brushing helped control that...I LOVE dogs, but would never again get a sheltie or sheltie mix.....

catgirl

Veteran

RT, I agree with you that purebreds from responsible kennels and breeders are healthy and long-lived. However, I don't think I (and this is me personally, no judgment on others) will ever pay for an animal when we have a shelter here overflowing with abandoned or stray dogs who need a home. We have gotten all of our pets from the shelter - our last dog was actually a purebred husky that the owner gave up along with the puppies after she (the dog, not the owner, hee hee) mated with a stray (does this ruin the lineage or something?).

I completely understand that responsible breeders charge as much as they do because they're not just churning out puppies heedlessly, and I do not in any way judge people for paying for a breed they want. I just wanted to throw in a good word for the mutts who may not have monetary value but can still be a fabulous pet.

BTW, a friend of mine paid a huge amount for a labradoodle that is epileptic and difficult in disposition, just to add to your Doodle stories.

catgirl

Veteran

On a humorous note, I keep telling myself that next time I need a dog that matches my wardrobe, or vice versa - both for shedding and accessorizing reasons. All we ever have are huskies or husky mixes, along with cats... a shedding mess!

Steph

Veteran

AG, I just had to respond to your last post. A few years ago a cat was turned into rescue because it was orange and white and the owner was changing her decor from "country casual" to "sleek and modern" and the cat no longer matched her home. She actually asked if she could exchange the cat for one that was all white or all black.

(Oh, and as someone who spends a TON of time rescuing animals and sees all of the wonderful pets stuck in shelters, I always applaud anyone who spreads the word that there are great pets in shelters and with rescues!)

catgirl

Veteran

Steph, that cat story makes me want to cry my eyes out. Right now our dog is tracking mud in every other minute and driving me nuts. But you know what? Carpets can be cleaned.

Louise

Veteran

Oh Steph what an awful story. People like that don't deserve the pleasure having a pet brings. There is nothing nicer than waking in the middle of the night to find a warm furry body snuggled up next to you, and they're much less hassle than a bloke!!!!! x

Claudia

Veteran

Una, I agree with everything, every word you've posted on this thread. I volunteer at our local shelter, have rescued and fostered dogs, and am especially passionate about dogs, and the welfare of all animals in general. Shelters and rescue organizations are filled with some of the best family pets on earth. Adopting a mature dog, not a very young puppy, is a good way to really see a dog's "true" personality, energy level and temperament. A puppy, not as much.

I agree with RandomThoughts in the specific response to the original poster needing information on a dog less likely to cause an allergic response -- or for those needing a dog to bring the herd down from the north forty, guard the flock, pull in the fishing nets, or go bird hunting.

The fact is, the vast majority of pedigree dog breeds have only been around for the last 150 years or so. They came from the selective breeding of MUTTS. For tens of thousands of years before, it's mutts that have helped and loved mankind. There wasn't this focus on strict breed standards in appearance; just useful behaviors, submissiveness to training and even, stable temperaments as the selective pressures in breeding.

Unfortunately, the modern development of dog breeds and the AKC strict adherence to breed standards in recent times has been a terrible thing to do to man's best friend from a health and behavioral point of view. Appearance and behavior are genetically linked. Because of this, the over selection of a specific physical trait(s) always comes with neurologic problems over time. This has been demonstrated over and over with the selective breeding of livestock and with dogs. The fact that there is even a website(s) with the health issues associated with each breed is a sad testiment to this serious issue.

Each new generation of even the most responsibly bred and screened pedigree dogs comes with more and more genetic bottlenecking. The health issues and the neurologically caused behavioral problems being seen will only be increasing. When a specific breed of dog becomes more and more popular, that's when you see these problems really explode in the breed as they are overbred to meet the demand. It happened with Shelties, German Shepards, Spaniels, Dalmations, etc.

Hybrid vigor is real, although there are never any guarantees, BUT the selective pressure that true mutts have endured over time means that a heinz57-type mutt (not a first generation "designer dog") is a very smart bet for a wonderful family dog when all one is looking for is an all around great, healthy and mentally stable addition to the family. Of course, just like raising polite and well behaved children, proper dog-parenting is important, too.

Responsible breeders of pedigree dogs have their place, but ask most veteranarians and they'll usually tell you about the tragedy of what we've created for our dogs. They deal with it on a daily basis.

Patty

Veteran

Thank you to everyone for their replies and stories--we've been busy over the last couple days and haven't really talked ourselves about the pup so no new news really.