There is lively discussion on this thread!

My psychological hat is on for this one - as tothemoonAlice already points out - judgements both positive and negative (conscious and unconscious) are part of our psyche. It's an instinctive reaction for how to cope with a situation.

Talking about negative judgements is a slippery slope on this forum because the whole of fashion and style is based on judgement. If there was no judgement - we would not be able to separate stylish from unstylish. At the end of day, it's how we process the information that counts, thereby being non-judgmental when we need to be, and judgemental when we need to be. I am forever learning the correct balance between these two thought processes.

Ironkurtin: all I can say is OMG!

Let me just state for the record that I don't think all scantily clad women are swingers. It just so happened that this one was.

Angie: I think we all went off topic a little because the original article wasn't about judging someone based on fashion but only on their weight which I think is a whole different animal

I work in a people-intensive service industry where I interact with potentially hundreds of people every day (restaurant server). I have learned never to judge people based on their appearances! I have also learned this lesson, because I am old, in my 50s. (There have to be some benefits to aging, and I like to think wisdom is one of them.) However, once I start interacting with people, I start forming opinions. How you behave and treat other people is something everyone *can* control, whereas how you look, is harder to control for many people.

Helen: I really don't have a clue as to what specific situation you are referring to but I understand your point. I might have to defer to MaryK for search results LOL. Thank you for your reply. I love me a straight shooter:)

IK: The only thing I can tell you is that you have a future in comedy if the video game gig does not pan out.... OMG, I'm dying here.

I've been judged openly and I'm sure I still get judged on my weight, but I'll admit I'm just as guilty. Or have been in the past. The interesting thing for me personally is now that I've gone through 3 years of therapy I'm considerably less judgmental. If I catch myself falling into that old habit I immediately put a stop to it and point out to myself that I know nothing about the person I'm judging and I'm nowhere near perfect enough to judge anyone else and anyway, what's it doing for me besides detrimentally affecting my peace?

My conclusion is it was my own internal misery that was at the root of my judgmental attitude. I'm a lot happier not doing it.

I've met plenty of overly modest, frumpily dressed, self-described polymorphously perverse people (aka swingers).

Helen, it might be slightly OT, but over my time here, threads have regularly popped up about "OMG is she/they wearing that", which basically have a tut-tutting tone, and usually have questionable gender politics at their base (Victoria, I wasn't referring to your post; these threads have been focused specifically on the poster's shock/horror). So I do agree with you. Whether same anxieties and judgements feed into feelings of being judged, I cannot say on a case by case basis as I am not vetting people in that way, but yes, the logic of projection would tend to support that.

I can't help thinking of my MIL who is obsessed with the idea that people are talking about her when all she does is criticise others.

It's hard to be entirely nonjudmental. As others have said, it's hardwired into us. Before we hear a person even speak, we make certain assumptions based on what we see. I think the trick is to be open to re-evaluating your initial assumptions once you get to know a person.

I know what you mean about women being catty, though. Many are not, but some are. I learned that lesson early. I remember, at the end of junior high (grade 10) when they wrote my blurb for the yearbook, I discovered that my nickname was "The Snob". It was hurtful, because I'm not! But I was a little shy with people I didn't know well. I was warm and friendly with friends, and had a ready laugh, but was (and still am, a bit) uncomfortable with familiarity from strangers. And I was cute and little. (I didn't think I was cute, of course. Like many teenaged girls, I thought I was plain and somehow inadequate). So apparently a lot of the other girls had decided that I must be therefore be a bitch.

Mostly, though, if you're nice to other people, they will be nice back.

TeeandCee, what a wonderful thing that you've been able to move to a more secure, peaceful place when dealing with others. I think it's very common for us to suffer this way.

I had a friend who I admired and adored and was close to at one time. But the friendship really challenged me in that the buttons of my insecurity and envy kept getting pushed. This friend was someone I regarded as successful in many ways, and I loved feeling associated with that. However her way of communicating can be very blunt and didactic (she is a schoolteacher) and I would quite often be irritated and offended by how she dealt with me.

When I felt annoyed with her, all sorts of other feelings and thoughts would be stirred up in me as well. Thoughts about, why bother being so nice to her when not only is she not always nice to me, but also that her life must be so easy, being blonde, tall, leggy, Anglo, and conventionally pretty. She must have doors opening for her everywhere. Her husband is a very successful professional and they seem to be jetsetting around the world half the time. Her kid, same age as mine, has won awards...

I HATED the way I felt about her. This kind of quiet hostility, like I was giving her the evil eye, wishing her bad luck. Not consciously, it was a very primal reaction, the triggering and unleashing of all my insecurities. I would battle with myself to try to be reasonable, compassionate. But I would feel so rejected by her, even though my self esteem is normally quite good.

Mixed with this was feeling sorry for her, because at times certain people have regarded me the way I regard her (as being more conventionally attractive/slimmer/smarter/more successful, having everything, so why not take some of it away). I have felt their envy and hostility and let me tell you I don't wish that on anyone.

And under that was wanting this friend (who was very busy and who I now realise diverged from me in a few key areas, values/attitudes-wise) to respect me and love me and include me.

The best thing for me has been not pursuing the friendship, not even looking at their pics online, because it brings out the crazy in me.

For the record I didn't hate the swinger lady or wish her ill, or want to rush over with a bedsheet and hustle her out the door. I kinda wished her husband wasn't such a weaselly backstabbing little turdmonster, but that was utterly separate.

I did wonder what her students' parents thought, though.

Lol!

Dear Elizabeth, I had the same experiences especially as I was growing up. I was painfully shy and reserved with strangers which resulted with many girls in highschool deciding that I was a "stuck up bitch who thought I was better than anyone else" when in reality I was horribly insecure and shy. Sad, sad...

Sorry for derailing, but can I just clarify regarding my post a few above I'm not actually a swinger myself - not that it matters... I've just spent a lot of time in liberal arts departments at uni! ^_^

There's the crux of the problem. IK's hilarious story quite highlights this, along with more poignant confessions --- you can't tell...until you're told!

You can't really know until *after* the fact, so while I can completely see it is impossible (biologically) to *not* judge at all, it's possibly more important not to voice or act on that judgement too quickly.

As it is, you've already made yourself extra sensitive to certain cues by making that 'first impression' judgement (the one KikiG's talking about I think) --- if you think someone's rich, you might see her suggestion to go to the pricey and hip new lunchroom in town as snobbish, when maybe she's just a foodie and 'new' is what attracted her over swanky; if you think someone's fat because they are lazy, their reluctance to bend over and pick up a box because their shorter top might give you an eyeful becomes confirmation of their sloth.

Is that seemingly cold woman stuck-up or socially awkward (here's me too!). Is that fat person having issues in her life that are more important than exercise and 5-a-day? Is the, um, habitual bombshell a swinger on the trawl or a person who'd like to dress more trendy but is clueless and really *reaching* (in which case she might appreciate your help!)? How do you KNOW... until you, well, know?

I think fashion is important because we do take our initial cues from what we see and self decoration has been a form of communication for thousands of years (tattooing, hairstyles, ect). When we dress in a flattering and stylish manner we indicate that we care about ourselves and about the task at hand and are open to people. It can help counteract shyness, assumptions people might make about us based on our weight, ethnicity or other judgements that might otherwise be made about how invested we are in what we do or respect for the situation.

I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments.

Fruitful, thank you for sharing your story with your successful friend. So true. I think we all had a friend like this, or can relate. Which is to say, judgement is so relative.
"(...) this friend (who was very busy and who I now realise diverged from me in a few key areas, values/attitudes-wise)": what do you mean?

Fruitful, I admire your decision to detach from even reading about this person since it dredges up so much for you. If we'd all invest that kind of discipline into keeping our own peace the world would be a much better place. I'm speaking to myself as well.

I totally agree with others who've stated judging is hard-wired into us and that we're sight oriented. It's a safety mechanism, although I know that's not the subject of this thread. Making a judgment is unavoidable. Acting on it is.

The fact that we judge others for being judgmental is amusing since that makes us as guilty as they (I do this!). We really don't know what that person is going through or how we're subconsciously presenting ourselves or what they're projecting onto us. MOST of the time I believe it's not about us at all but the person doing the judging/projecting. But maybe that's just my therapy talking.

Fruitful, I am one of those people that has made comments about women wearing tights as pants. I even saw a woman once wearing opaque panty hose with the reinforced "girdle" area and I mentioned it here. It was a young woman with children and I wanted to say something to her out of concern.

But I think the difference between that and what Victoria brought up is in making a character judgement about someone. Somehow it has become ok for women to make themselves feel better by assuming themselves to have better character because they may wear pants instead of tights. That can be a slippery slope. I think that marketing has had something to do with it. Reality TV has something to do with it too. Women are being brainwashed into thinking that other women are just competition.

20 years ago, I went into a Coach store at an "upscale" mall. I was asked to take a survey about Coach and I agreed. ( Mind you, I had one briefcase from Coach and I was there checking it out because I was considering buying their stock. ) The survey asked things like, "what kind of woman do you think buys Coach products ? " The possible answers were multiple choice : intelligent, has good taste, is trustworthy....blah, blah.....all CHARACTER issues that have nothing to do with a bag.

The great thing about this site is that I don't feel people judge character. I don't think that anyone has ever looked at one of my pictures and thought , " What a moron. She couldn't pass 1st grade math. " Instead what I got was "try black shoes with that outfit" or "try easy-peasy make up". Things that will help me improve my overall look. I know that if I insisted on wearing a potato sack, no one would judge me as stupid...they would gently say I should wear a belt or a scarf with color. LOL

Most people make poor choices that have nothing to do with character - they are just mistakes.

ASSESSING someone may be hardwired ( we see it in the animal kingdom ), CHARACTER judgement based on appearance is not. That is taught. Con men have learned this. If they look clean cut and respectable, people deem them "trustworthy"....

I read this article too while having my hair colored recently!

I do think that work is currently being done in progressive workplaces on diversity: diversity of weight, appearance, race, cultural norms and to learn to be non judgemental. It is as those YLF'ers in the psychology fields have pointed out an innate reaction to 'react' and 'judge'. The thing we have to learn is overcoming biases.

Two recent hires at my company were both clearly hired because of their qualifications and not looks specifically weight. I was delighted to see this happen. There were a lot of applicants for the job with similar qulaifications but cleary discrimination atleast in the hiring process did not take place.

As a physician I will make the comment that many persons that are overweight look ill or move slowly because of physical ailments not laziness. As Michelle Obama has rightfully targeted obesity is an epidemic in the US.

It is a sad commentary on our collective psyche that many persons with weight issues are judged as such.