Thanks ladies. I appreciate the advice, both from those that suggested letting the relationship go and from those that had ideas on communication.

Honestly, my general stance is that I respect anyone I am in a relationship with and treat them like the mature adults that they want to be treated like. I try very hard to be considerate and understanding and I enjoy doing nice and unexpected things for them (baking, showing up with a small gift, offering to cook) and am willing to help out (help shopping for something, planning things, moving, doing small house chores when I'm over). I don't yell or like to have to constantly get after people about things. Instead, I make my expectations clear from early on and communicate that I am upset or feel hurt when they aren't met, especially since most of my expectations generally fall under the umbrella of common courtesy. I'm very open and let anyone know that I am willing to discuss anything (including things they may be concerned about involving me) so long as they come to me in a respectful manner.

It is very possible that by trying to be understanding and generally having a laid-back personality has given him the impression that I will cater to him. I'm pretty sure he is quite aware that on some level what he did/is doing is disrespectful, but seems to have justified it through a combination of "having an important job/being busy", "not meaning to be hurtful", and feeling as though I will allow it or that he seems to be getting away with it. It is possible he is immature when it comes to relationships despite being older than I am and having a job and friendships where he absolutely has to be a mature professional and responsible/respectful. I will speak up again.

I really do appreciate the good advice. I value your opinions. I do have a bit of a hard time with this sort of thing as I am constantly being sent messages from family and friends that this is what I should expect from men. All of the women in my family married young and don't have any experience dating as "adults" and seem to expect the immature behavior (having begun relationships with their spouses in their teens or very early 20s) at least into marriage if not beyond. I personally have never seen a man treat a woman with the type of respect or care that you all speak about in any of the relationships that I have been close to (friends, family friends, family members) nor have I personally been "courted" or treated with the type of courtesy you ladies talk about, not by any man I've dated, nor by my own father, brother or grandfathers. I've had a few caring older male mentors as a student, but unfortunately we have definitely had to keep professional distance from each other so as not to confuse others about intentions in today's world. It is wonderful to hear that there are fabulous men out there, but personally very difficult to internalize having met many good men but never one who is willing to make such an effort.

Elly, I imagine it must be difficult without a good role-model. I think as an adult you just have to make sure you are benefiting from the relationship on some level, and that what you are giving is worth what you are getting. Don't be fooled by thinking that because you are playing the right role that somehow your happiness will naturally follow - or that there is something wrong with you for NOT being happy even though you are "doing all the right things". Good luck. It sounds like even if this doesn't work out you are certainly learning a lot about yourself in the process, and that can only have a good outcome, right?

Elly, you've alreadty gotten so much great advice here, and I know how thoughtful you are in your decisions - I'm confident you'll do what you need to do.

I just want to add this one comment. People saying "This is what you should expect from men" not only forces you to lower your standards, but is demeaning to you and to worthwhile guys. Imagine a guy saying to another guy about a nagging girlfriend, "This is what you should expect from women." Any guy worth his salt will aspire to be a better person for you, just as you would for him.

Elly, as someone who's never met the man in question, I am just going by how you feel and what you've described. It's hard when you grow attached to someone, despite their imperfect behaviour. True, there are many idealists here (and I'm one of them) who believe that the right man - one that is right for you and ready for a committed relationship - should treat you with decent respectful concern and care. When you observe how he treats others, it should be similar, in fact - a good indicator of what type of character he is. It can drive someone insane to deal with a very difficult and selfish personality. The stats about this are cautionary, marital-wise. Many will advise you to hold a very high standard, especially in this dating stage, while you're getting acquainted and sorting out if there is love to hang onto or not. I agree. I'm willing to bet many of us have been through a toxic, stressful relationship/marriage or two and learned the hard way. Unfortunately, as you've mentioned when describing your family and other influential people in your life, many people's realities are not wonderful and they accept it. That is why perhaps you were initially willing to "settle" for some questionable behaviour so early on in your relationship - BUT now doubting whether or not you should continue investing your time and enery and feelings into this person is a great sign! You are not willing to be miserable! Only you know what you can and can't live with - but I think the most important qualities when you're seeking a serious relationship are love, mutual respect, and trust. Life will become very hard if you let someone into your life where these are missing.

This young man sounds very young indeed. A lot like my 18 year old son, as a matter of fact. Not just young, but immature. He is taking while you are giving. He thinks it's no big deal because you're not nagging. The nights you've been over at his place for hours on end just hanging out tells me that that's the way he likes things, and the way they will be again when you've forgiven and forgotten and things get back to what he considers *normal*. RUN. No, really. I'm sure he's nice and quite charming in his own way but this would get old, fast for me. He needs to grow up some more, otherwise you're just going to end up being his mother in this relationship.

I haven't read any other replies I will when I have more time, but just want to say that some people are takers and some people are givers and he sounds like a big "taker" . I think people can change and deserve a break but at the same time you have to protect yourself by realizing that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If you continue to feel this way you need to move on from him. A relationship should enhance your life not detract from it or cause you stress, it ill only get worse.

Elly, I'm happy that you are going to speak up about this again - but I'd like to add: don't just speak up - put that foot down. If you *don't* come over unless you've had adequate notice, and if you, say, go home after you've waited a reasonable amount of time... I think it will be easy to see if he shapes up or checks out.

What you said about having never seen a good relationship really, really hit home for me. I knew nothing but fighting growing up, and I sort of cobbled together a vague idea of what I wanted from teachers and television... the encouragement that I can give, if this relationship doesn't work out for you, is that it can come down to a numbers game of sorts - meeting people, filtering through the obvious nays, and testing out the possible yays. I did this online, which sped the process up considerably, but there are lots of resources for people nowadays. You're too awesome to settle for anything that is close/convenient but doesn't make you totally happy.

As Dan Savage would say, if he's not good, game, and giving - then DTMFA. Life is too short to waste it on someone who doesn't appreciate you.

Elly, you seem like a sweet and thoughtful young woman, and the fact that you haven't had a truly good spousal partnership modeled at home set off more alarm bells for me, so I'm going to chime in again. I hope you take this as a kindly meant suggestion, and not bossy interference.

If a girl grows up watching her parents (and other family members) enjoy a loving, reciprocally respectful relationship, she has an easier time recognizing good boyfriend behaviour when she sees it. If not, she has to work a little harder to get there. A man who wants you to be "the one" for him will knock himself out trying to show you that he's the right guy, and will do everything in his power to keep you. I don't think I'm exaggerating. I've had a few boyfriends in my time, LOL. If this man seems insensitive to your feelings, he's probably not the one for you. If you find yourself rationalizing his behaviour, try to step back and imagine: what if the tables were turned? If you were to treat him the way he's treating you (which you probably wouldn't, because you seem more mature than that! But humour me), iiiiiis it likely that you're in love with him?

When you're in a relationship with a guy, it should be very clear that he's dead keen on you.

Best of luck. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.

Hi Elly. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with your boya.

I will start out by saying that, like you, many of these ladies describe relationships the likes of which I have never personally witnessed or experienced. My own husband, whom I adore, can be quite immature, self-centered and I do often feel that I am taken for granted. I also tell him this very openly! I don't feel that he has ever fallen all over himself to do things for me or make me happy. That's just not the way he is.

OTOH, he is one of the few people with whom I have ever felt 100% comfortable being absolutely open. I can tell him anything. I love just hanging out with him and I miss him when we are apart. I can act badly and he forgives me (though I try not to, try to own my mistakes and try always to apologize when I am wrong). He is the best dog-daddy I know. He trusts me absolutely. And he actually has begun treating me _better_ than he used to in that he does thoughtful things and even surprises me with little gifts which he never did as a young man. He gets on my nerves sometimes but over all, my life is better for having him in it.

If this gentleman, as Jenava so astutely put it, doesn't improve your life somehow, if you aren't getting something for all your trouble, let him go. Relationships, be they romantic or platonic, should ADD to your life, not detract. If, however, you feel your life is made greater by his presence, then I would give him the benefit of the doubt and discuss your concerns. Set your boundaries clearly (less driving!) and talk to him about them. If he's worth it, that is.

FWIW, I look back on some of my past relationships and realize I got nothing from them except 'being in a relationship' which at the time I apparently felt was enough. Bleh. Good riddance!

I haven't read all the comments so the only things I have to add are that prior behaivour under stress is usually a fairly good indicator of future behaivour. He sounds like a fair weather friend and you would be better to wish him a fond farewell and focus on your health and finding someone who pampers and cares for you not the other way round.

Elly, I'm coming to this late, but I'm sorry you're going through this! You've gotten lots of excellent responses, and I find myself particularly nodding along with the last three comments from kiwichik, Andrea and Elisabeth.

What you're describing sounds to me mostly like your boyfriend's immaturity. This, in a nutshell, is most of why I was single until my 30s. However, unlike you, I did not possess the ability to stand up for what I deserved by vocalizing it when I felt hurt or disrespected. Because of the way I grew up, I learned to avoid confrontation at all costs, and only learned to even recognize (much less express) my own feelings of anger and resentment until I was in my 40s!

So a big bravo to you for recognizing that there is something wrong here and wanting more for yourself. I can say with full confidence that you do not have to expect that kind of behavior from all men -- only the inconsiderate, immature ones. Can he change and grow up? Sure! But do you want to wait around for that? You seem much too awesome to "settle."

Big hugs to you!

Im really sad to hear (but not suprised) that you've never seen anyone in the type of relationship you *deserve* to have! I dated several guys, some ok, some I thought were good for me-until looking back on how it really was- some really selfish and self-centered..but thats how I thought things were, with everyone. I was 40 and certain I'd never get married (because I finally realized I was far better off alone than to be mistreated) when I met my husband and he proved to me there ARE really great guys out there, just hard to find. Really hard. Is he perfect? Hell no! But neither am I. We get in arguements occasionally, he drives me nuts at times, sometimes I get really disgusted-Im sure he does too, but he ALWAYS treats me with respect,goes out of his way to do little things for me and tells me he loves me (and shows me-not just words) every day and we've been together for almost 11 years. I know I can count on him when things get rough (since we were married 5 yrs ago we've been thru both mine and his mother's death, very difficult and drawn-out sale of her house where we lost a lot of money, bankruptcy, my being unable to work after losing my ability to stand/walk normally and wasnt sure if I'd ever be able to (I do ok now, with a cane or walker), 5 months with our income cut 50% before I got on SSD, is still down due to his reduced hours at work,,death of his best friend after optional surgery, my very needy sister's physical and mental health issues and needing to loan her money every month that we dont have extra , Biscuit's cancer, having non-paying 'houseguests' for 9 months, who ruined several things on our house and were gross in several ways, both of us having serious physical problems....) but I know he'll be there for me, as I will for him, and you should PLEASE never settle for anything less than a man who will give 110% for you... and if he doesnt come along, you wont have wasted your life being someone's servant and time filler...

Biscuitsmom makes some really good points here -- relationships are put to the test the most during times of stress. How couples respond to each other during times of upheaval is something to which i would pay close attention.

Years ago, my best friend was seriously dating a guy -- they'd been together for years, had discussed marriage, etc. She is a very strong, independent woman, and since I've known her (35 years now), I've only seen her cry enough times that I can count them on one hand. When her father passed away, her boyfriend seemed to be at a loss. He called me to ask whether he should come see her (she and I lived together at the time), and I couldn't help but think, "Duh! Of course! Get your ass up here!" That started me wondering. Sure enough, in the months to come, he became more elusive and distant. He had all kinds of excuses -- overworked and overstressed being the most common one. Here my friend was, hurting in a time of crisis, and her boyfriend was emotionally retreating. Eventually he broke up with her and married someone else a year later.

So I pay attention to how boyfriends/girlfriends act when times get tough. Life is full of difficult times, and we all need a partner who can not only provide us with the kind of support we need, but also be able to receive support when we need it as well. This is only possible with honest communication, and being able to truly understand and respect what each other's needs are.

Hi Elly! "I do have a bit of a hard time with this sort of thing as I am constantly being sent messages from family and friends that this is what I should expect from men. "

This does make your situation harder to deal with, but not impossible. What it boils down to is: if you want something different from what you see your family and friends doing, then you're going to have to behave differently yourself. You'll have to ignore the voices in your head and in your surroundings, you'll have to stand up for yourself despite nasty comments, you'll have to get busy doing what is important to YOU. If this guy is worth it, he'll shape up and get with the program. If not, oh well.

It's scary and risky, but if you go along with what you're history is - only you can decide if you want to go there or not. If you don't want to, you'll have to stand your ground.

As others have pointed out - what's in this for YOU? steph

Thanks again ladies. I've really taken to heart the advice about deserving to be happy and I will stand up for myself.

You know sometimes I think about how the media portrays men in a negative and one-dimensional way and sends the message that one can't expect too much, but that's also such a load of nonsense. There are so many wonderful men in the world, and you are very smart, Elly, to be catching onto this and sticking up for your own worth despite your surroundings telling you otherwise.