On cultural/ethnic appropriation - YouLookFab Forum

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On cultural/ethnic appropriation

Diana

Veteran

I wanted to continue this discussion that we started in today's blog post, but I thought the forums would be a better place to do so.

I admit that I have mixed feelings on this issue... on the one hand, I feel that many cultural and ethnic patterns are truly beautiful and artistic, and I want to wear beautiful and artistic things. On the other hand, I do feel a sense of unease when I wear something that is clearly not from my own culture, especially if it is a large or statement piece. I know that I am not wearing these things to be disrespectful or mocking, but I can't help but be concerned that other people think I am.

I am ethnically Chinese, but culturally American/Western. I have complicated feelings about the perception of Asian culture in general in the west, particularly historically, and the whole concept of the "Orient" as being exotic and weirdly sexualized, and I admit that it does bother me when I see non-Asian people wearing what I perceive to be traditional Asian styles of clothing. There's obviously an issue of moderation here too.... If it's just a print on a skirt or a piece of jewelry or something, that's perfectly fine. It's when it's done to such a costumey, exaggerated level (think full-on geisha mode, with lots of makeup, etc) that it really bothers me, partly because it projects a certain stereotyped perception of Asian culture in general and Asian women in particular.

On the other hand, I do think that there are a lot of very beautiful and artistic patterns, styles, and clothing in Asian culture and I would love to share that beauty and have others appreciate it...

General

33 replies

Latest reply was from Marley

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Super thread and I am very interested in respectful discussion on this topic. Your last paragraph here really resonated with me.

Diana, I did chime back in on your question on this morning's blog post - just in case you missed it. Nancylee also made a great comparison to tartan.

cciele

Veteran

Interesting topic! I am also ethnically Chinese but culturally Western. I don't have a problem with people wearing garb from other ethnicities, although I think part of it has to do with context. For example, if a Western woman was wearing a qi pao to the grocery store or to work I would think that was odd, but if she wore it to a party I think it would be cool.

Do you feel similarly when one "tribe" (e.g., skaters, punks, hip hop, goth) wears the "costume" of a different tribe? Like when a white person wears stereotypical clothing of the black hip hop culture?

I do have more have an issue of people appropriating religious icons (crosses, Native American fetishes, etc) and treating them in a disrepectful manner. Not sure where I draw the line -- it's more of a "Know it when I see it" kind of thing

modgrl

(website)

Veteran

Cciele, I had to look up what a qi pao was. I am enamored with the art of Asia, I have had several of these dresses. If I found one that fit me well now, I would wear it in a heartbeat. I agree that this isn't every day attire, it is the ultimate in formal wear for me. I hope I don't offend anyone when I wear one - and I do plan to wear one again someday!

Nakidra

Veteran

I am like Angie and just don’t feel drawn to large, ethnic patterns. I’m a floral girl at heart! It’s not that I would feel weird wearing them, it’s just that it isn’t my style. If I did like that style, I wouldn’t feel weird wearing it them. It’s just clothing after all and it’s not meant to be super serious, disrespectful or mocking, in my opinion. If done tastefully, I wouldn’t assume that you are being disrespectful.

cjh

(website)

Veteran

I put a long comment on the blog post, possibly should've put it here. But if you want to read my comment, look there.

Heather

Veteran

Perhaps I am very daft in my thinking on this subject, but I see wearing a pattern, jewel or garb of another culture as a complete compliment. I wear or use things that I admire. And when I see culturally or ethnically diverse items on others, considering race or background as a justification for adornment is an afterthought or not at all.

Granted, as in any circumstance, there are extremes and everything is relative.

HelenInCanada

Veteran

Great thread. I think it's amazing that we are opening ourselves up to the beauty, art and fashion of different cultures. I live in an extremely multicultural neighbourhood - and let's face it, with the world being hyperconnected through travel, television, immigration, and the web, we are exposed to every culture immediately, as the term "global village" so succicntly describes - and was married to a Chinese/Jamaican, and have received the traditional jade necklaces (which I love) and the gorgeous chengsam dress for my daughter from relatives, which she wore because it looked just stunning. I also view this as a compliment to the originating culture. From what I know of people who have moved here from mainland China, for example, or who have visited in recent months, the fashion there is quite "westernized", meaning, they wear jeans, button-down shirts, denim, stretch, etc., as we are used to seeing. Millions are travelling to Europe to buy Armani, Valentino, GIvenchy, etc., that they love. Should the West feel offended? I don't mean to sound facetious, but the fact is how can we stop the blending of borders in this rapidly changing globalization of people? We can certainly acknowledge its origins, and not take something sacred (ahem, rosaries as necklaces, for example) and pervert it...but that said, fashion is fun, not really political unless you want to get into exploitation practices of garment manufacturers, etc, but that is a whole different topic! What about things like tattoos (I believe originating in Celtic and some Aboriginal cultures which are deeply symbolic), or henna (an Indian art, again, with important cultural ties)? Just some thoughts!

Diana

Veteran

Angie & Nancylee: The comparison to tartan is very interesting... while I (as someone who is clearly not of Scottish descent) don't think I would feel uncomfortable wearing something in a tartan *pattern*, I would definitely think twice about wearing a traditional Scottish outfit made out of said tartan.

Cciele & Modgrl: I do not think that wearing a qi pao (in the right context) is disrespectful in the least! I think this is an example of taking something beautiful from another culture and appreciating it. I do think that women who wear the dress and then pair it with stereotypical "Asian" makeup (i.e. making your eyes look slanted, lips small and pursed, etc) makes me do a double take. It's the whole "exotic oriental" stereotype that really bugs me. I should also add that there are Asian women who play up this aspect too, and this also disturbs me a little bit although obviously it's not quite cultural appropriation then. It's more like buying into / being complicit with the Western myth of Asian women.

I do also think that in general there is a difference between someone who really loves another culture and its fashions, etc, and takes the time to really learn about it versus someone who only knows the stereotypes. Another example is the recent trend towards getting Chinese character tattoos when you don't really know what the character even means.

I do think that with the Native American tribal patterns, there is an additional layer of complexity with the religious iconography being involved. Part of the issue is, I think, that most consumers don't know that this is even an issue.

I find it fascinating also that certain types of appropriation trigger these responses in us, whereas other things do not at all. If you think about it, everything comes from somewhere. For example, I wear cowboy boots and blue jeans, both of which are "appropriated" from particular groups, although it is not ethnic, and I don't think twice about it. Is it just because something like cowboy boots are considered so mainstream now? Or because there is no history of cultural oppression or colonialism?

Fruitful

Veteran

Diana et al, Chrizzle defined the problem perfectly: scroll down to the 39th comment.

http://youlookfab.com/2011/10/...../#comments

"there are issues of privilege, disrespect and cultural appropriation that just aren’t present with a tartan print skirt. Here’s the difference, as explained by Susan Scadafi, a professor at Fordham Law:

“It’s an issue when you have indigenous peoples…who have been subject to actual genocide, and then you come back around with what some people characterize as cultural genocide. The pillaging of land, the pillaging of personal property, followed by the pillaging of what could be considered intellectual property. It’s something that occurs against a background of a lot of other offensive actions.”

Not to mention that the Navajo Nation specifically trademarked their name and license their traditional designs to prevent just what Urban Outfitters did. Quite apart from the cultural appropriation issue, they crossed a legal line. I think there are good and not-so-good ways to use or market items inspired by the cultures of indigenous peoples around the world."

ironkurtin

Veteran

I think the issue arises when one means to offend, embarrass, or exploit. Otherwise, it's simply enjoyment of a pattern or look, and should be taken in that spirit. Obviously some symbols and designs are more loaded than others (religious symbols, nazi signs, etc.), and it's important to be sensitive to what you are saying with your clothes here, just as it is whenever you dress.

Elly

Veteran

This is a very difficult topic for me.

I am ethnically European and Native American. I have two mixed grandparents and two completely European grandparents. One of my grandfathers was born and lived on the reservation as a young child. Both Native sides of my family chose to move away from reservation communities and marry other European or mixed-race people because of discrimination and extreme poverty and chose to try to pass or have their children pass as European in the hope of having better opportunities.

Although I was always aware of my ancestry, we were raised culturally American. I am eligible for tribal enrollment, but my parents chose not to enroll us as children and I have not chosen to enroll since becoming an adult. However, I did grow up in a different reservation community and participated in the social and ceremonial life of that community and became interested/involved in Native issues because of various experiences and dealing with discrimination faced by close friends. I now work in a field that is about 3/4 European scientist-types and a smaller percentage Native people. I don't tend to fit into either group-- I tend to fall into Native group ideologically, but am not legally or culturally involved with my tribe and don't "look Native". Like the LBGTQ community there are various people that have very strong beliefs about who is or isn't a member/welcome. For some people I am "close enough" to be a community member, others care only about legality, some blood percentages, others about outward appearance, others about cultural and community involvement. Either way, there is always a significant portion of the community that is left out.

Generally scientist-types accept me until they get to know my beliefs, and Native people don't understand or trust me until they get to know me.

Still, first impressions matter.
Many people appreciate the beauty and art of other cultures, no one likes to look inappropriate or like they are appropriating other cultures/poser/UO-hipster-ish.

Personally I think the best way to do this is one of two things---

a) tasteful inspired items--- like the printed skirt example, truly inspired but not cartoonish, stereotypical, a copy/infringement of what should be intellectual property (also includes pendelton gear)

b) actual artisan work-- there are plenty of modern and traditional artists that incorporate traditional materials and motifs into jewelery and clothing--- this also means that the people who created the motifs you admire are receiving the money from its sale instead of big business. It can be very affordable when compared to other equal products (of course, not when compared to plastic and polyester).

I also think that is is very important to learn about the history /meaning/and issues in communities that you admire and appreciate. In this global society, everyone has been impacted by colonization and it is something that we all need to be aware of. Some communities just have fresher wounds than others.

MsMary

Veteran

Ironkurtin, I completely agree with the second half of your post but think it's not necessariloy consistent with the first hafl.

What if, for example, somebody took your most cherished religious or cultural pattern -- say, the American flag, or a crucifix, or whatever image or pattern you (general "you") hold most sacred -- and made it into a mini-skirt or tube top? Even if they did so not knowing what it meant, and not intending to offend you, but just because they thought the pattern or look was cool, I think you would likely still take offense, and rightfully so! (Remember, we're talking about the images or patterns or symbols that you hold dearest.) And what if they didn't get it exactly right -- maybe they put a Barbie doll or a cross or made the flag red, white and green with hearts instead of stars. That would make you cringe, despite the fact it was done in innocent ignorance.

I think we should be sensitve to other cultures and go a bit further than "this is a cool design."

ETA: Or, you know, exactly what Elly said!!

goldenpig

(website)

Veteran

Great points, cjh. I love patterns so I certainly wear lots of different styles including plaid, damask, Asian-inspired, etc. etc. I’m not so much into the Navajo print but I might try something subtle. I agree that patterns are beautiful and are something to share across cultures.

But I do think you can take it too far. I agree that Urban Outfitters seems to be culturally insensitive. I think Navajo hip flasks and panties cross the line. And the Ambercrombie & Fitch line of Asian caricature t-shirts was similarly insensitive:
http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/tshirts.asp

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Really great thread, Diana, and I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughtful responses.

I've always wondered a bit about this and feel the need to tread carefully. My daughter (adopted) is Asian. I own several pieces of Asian style clothing. One is a traditional silk jacket, which I bring out for special occasions like Chinese New Year. The other is a qi pao that one of my closest friends (who is Scottish born Chinese-Canadian) donated to me. I haven't worn it yet, partly because I haven't had occasion to, but I confess that I did worry I might offend people. Probably I will save it for my daughter and hope that she can wear it someday. Ironically, she may feel odder in it than I would; she is a thorough tomboy with no interest in fashion or clothing at all.

Just as an aside, Rita, I think you would look amazing in a qi pao!

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Great thoughts here. I think you ALL make a meaningful point.

Both ends of the argument make sense to me - from Mary's extreme to Heather's extreme. I truly believe that this debate can be successfully argued both ways. And tartan was the most brilliant example for this discussion.

Jonesy

Veteran

Elly's comments really resonate with me. I personally find this challenging. On the one hand, many different patterns, designs, etc. originate from somewhere--there is this constant exchange, melding, morphing of images. It seems like it's very hard to say "I will not consume or wear any sort of design or pattern that didn't come directly from someone like me." On the other hand, I don't think you can talk about the appropriation of these patterns, etc. without also talking about power, stratification based on culture/ethnicity/race, and privilege. It means something different when members of a powerful group appropriate (steal) from a less-powerful group (e.g., white rockers appropriating African American blues, large powerful universities using Native American symbols as sports mascots), compared to when things are shared or exchanged between groups with similar power (e.g., white Irish Americans wearing a Scottish plaid). The former can be perceived as yet another outrageous, unethical act, in a long line of such acts, the latter as cultural exchange.

On a personal level, I love patterns that would be described as "ethnic" or "tribal." For myself, I enjoy incorporating bits and pieces, but I am always thinking about this issue of appropriation/stealing/exploitation--not sure I have the answers, but I am always thinking about it :)! Patterns that are hybrids (a mix of a few things) or a pattern that is reminiscent of a traditional pattern but not it exactly, seem less problematic to me somehow. I think this is Elly's point about "inspired" items, vs. a very literal copy of something that doesn't belong to you. I also really appreciate the points made about not dressing in a full-on costume, or wearing garb that somehow fetishizes a particular cultural group, and the point about buying from actual artisans and supporting their livelihood.

Elly

Veteran

Jonesy makes and excellent point about cultural exchange--- it plays a huge role even in things that may now be considered "traditional."

In the Americans alone there was huge cultural exchange, especially when it came to invention, skills, and manners of adornment. That is why archeologists find shell jewelry from the coasts in the desert southwest and visa versa.

Also, this brings up an excellent example. Navajo weaving is iconic--- yet the Navajo were influenced by their neighbors in prehistoric times (Pueblos) and later by the Spanish. Half of Native America traded for Navajo blankets prior to American, Russian, French, and British contact in what would become the American west brought Pendelton and Hudson Bay Blankets to the people. The designs that we see today and even 100 years ago on Navajo blankets were influenced by American collectors and traders who wanted something that would appeal to Victorian sensibilities.

Laurinda

Veteran

Thank you for starting this thread.

In recent news Urban outfitters has just taken the 'Navajo' description off their clothing. It should be mentioned that 'Navajo' is a registered trademark of the Indian nation, so it could be argued that this may have more to do with commerce regulations than cultural sensitivity.

"After [Minneapolis] woman's protest, Urban Outfitters takes 'Navajo' name off product line"

http://www.startribune.com/local/132176588.html

ironkurtin

Veteran

MK, I think I wasn't quite clear. What I meant was, most people don't know enough about things to know they are being offensive. They just think it's a cool pattern for whatever reason. In which case, they are not being sensitive to the context, which we should all (of course) strive to be, but they're not deliberately being jerks.

Then, of course, you have people who just want to be a rebel (or look like one) and they pick these things deliberately to provoke. That is different from ignorance, so it merits a different response.

HelenInCanada

Veteran

Wherever there is true exploitation, harassment, and discrimination, which affects people's livelihoods or well-being and is just plain against the law in North America, anger is justified. A course of action may be justified to fix the abuse, and sadly such problems do occur today. This is clearly a very sensitive topic, but I do believe with respectful discussion, it can be addressed. I think, though, directing anger toward something like culture-inspired prints or jewellry can be quite misguided, taking away from the REAL issues that need to be addressed. I do think that case at Abercrombie & Fitch was mean-spirited and ignorant, and I'm glad the t-shirts were pulled. They DID strike me as mocking and not respectful of such a rich and complex culture. In the case of the Navajo trademark, again, the problem was rectified with protest. I think it would be a shame, though, for personal style to be policed to the point of shame or extreme political correctness instead of seeing it as shared beauty. Again, anger needs to be directed at the roots of the abuse.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

I'm asian; and I find when Caucasians wear asian clothing/patterns (like chong sam); I just laugh. It looks really ridiculous. Especially if they think they look "asian" with the chopsticks in the hair.

ironkurtin

Veteran

You know, how about this take? I worked for years in the comic book industry, which can definitely be seen as its own culture. And over the years I have seen literally thousands of people dressed either in superhero logo clothes, or superhero costumes. Some of them looked great, some of them looked ridiculous. All of them were wearing things which were legally trademarked, or were illegal derivations of those trademarks.

But you know, if they were doing it out of love for the characters and their tradition, which so many of them were (even the guy as Aquaman who really, really should have spared us all the sight of his body in iridescent green briefs with tube socks rammed in front), we all just kinda just smiled. The people who were real a-holes about it and used these symbols and garb to make fun of the comics culture were basically shunned.

Okay, so, it's not the *same* as cultural and tribal symbols. But it's an interesting comparison I think, and not so loaded.

rachylou

Veteran

Qi pao... well here is one for you... when I was little I didn't believe Mandarin-speaking people were Chinese. Haha. Telling about the world. I actually think it's kind of weird to see anyone in a cheongsam, even in China. Western Dress is ubiquitous and pervasive.

As a hybrid, racially and culturally, I think it too exhausting to care. As an American, I also do rather think - sorry to say - the Melting Pot makes a good ideal. I know this is not popular, esp. not academically popular. I've heard the objections. I just don't think we can be one nation of people if we aren't willing to share a common culture, accept contributions from everybody and make them ourselves.

My friend and neighbor, on the other hand, is Romany 'gypsy' and cultural appropriation angers her. 'Gypsy sweeps' are going on present day, and people make & sell recordings of gypsy musicians as if they weren't artists deserving of copyright protection. They're quaint, slightly less than human, folk that you can put in a petri dish and study 'cuz it's cool. Which is pretty uncool.

Sylvie

Veteran

I'm really glad to see this thread because to be honest, when I saw the blog post, I felt uncomfortable with the concept of a "tribal" or "native citizen" trend. I thought the clothes themselves were inoffensive, but I didn't like someone else's cultural heritage being repackaged as a trend.

Chrizzle's statement that "But there are issues of privilege, disrespect and cultural appropriation that just aren’t present with a tartan print skirt" basically sums up how I feel.

In theory, I like the concept of pulling sartorial inspiration from multiple cultures. I do wear and own fusion clothing, some of which I've designed myself and gotten custom made.

In practice, I wish the fashion designers didn't decide to pull from x country and market it as "ethnic, oriental, eastern, tribal", etc, fashion, with caucasian models lying around languidly in "exotic" locations, where their attire would probably not be considered appropriate.

I wish more of them would present their work as "our new fusion line is inspired by the beautiful fabrics and designs of x country" and of course, stop putting religious insignia on clothing and bags.

rachylou

Veteran

I think that was well said, sylvie, about the packaging and marketing of someone else's heritage. The idea of *going native* too.

Re. tartan: I'm reminded of this time I was in the grocery, and the lady behind the counter asked me what right I had to wear a Brid's cross. Was I Irish? I told her, well, one of my grandmothers was Scottish. She said, *OK, I guess we can count that.* I actually am reluctant to wear tartan because, well, I'm not Scottish enough. But I certainly would like to. I like kilts.

Katja

(website)

I am a Caucasian woman, the child of German and American parents, and I grew up in West Africa. There are certain artifacts and textiles (cowrie shells, trade beads, wax prints, george, aso oke) that make me swoon with memory, like Proust's madeleine.

But if I wear them, I look like I'm playing dress up, because I'm the only one who associates them with my childhood.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Don't things become tricky when politics and religion become part of the fashion message

Ironkurtin, I like how you gave ignorant people the benefit of the doubt. As with everything - people just don't know what they don't know.

Diana

Veteran

Wow, so many great and thoughtful responses here! I love that we are all able to talk about this in a respectful and thoughtful way.

Elly, Rachylou, and others: I think you make a great point about fresh vs. historical wounds. In the case of Native Americans and the Romany people (and many others, I am sure) there is still a lot of active discrimination/oppression going on, which makes this a much more visceral issue for members of these groups. In my case, I think the wounds are mostly historical - it does not really make me actively angry to see people misappropriating Asian culture or caricaturizing it, more just intellectually uncomfortable if that makes sense. On the other hand, in my life at least, I do not feel oppressed, exoticized, or disenfranchised either.

IK: I love your analogy to the superhero costumes. I think it makes a perfect example of the difference between truly loving, respecting, and understanding another culture and using superficial stereotypes in a mocking or disrespectful way.

Sylvie: That is a great point about how these styles are marketed. I totally agree that it would be so much better if the same fashions were promoted as being inspired by rather than appropriated from. It's sad, though, that apparently the cultural appropriation sells, since designers keep on marketing it that way.

cyan45

What a fantastic, thought provoking topic!

Although I am half white/half vietnamese, I most identify w/ american culture. For a wedding, I wore an ankle length qui pao and felt fine b/c I wore something similar to my vietnamese cousins' wedding years ago. All the aunties cooed about it back then too, lol.

The most recent wedding was very western, w/ few other asian guests, so I did get some positive attention. The bride requested more formalwear, I had skin issue that needed concealing, so the qui pao was a win win!

However, I agree that context is everything. I did not do the hair chopsticks or other caricatures

Once, an indian family gave me a little sticker sheet of bindi's w/ matching earrings from their trip to india. I felt so happy wearing them, and thought of the sweet family...of course, I think my decision to wear it during a chrismas eve service in a baptist church as a musician in the program might have raised some eyebrows. I focused on the festive vibe, and forgot there might be a potential conflict everything went fine though.

I think it boils down to intent. If you are secure and confident (and not coming off as a halloween costume) I say go for it! Like others have said though, religious symbols are different, a little more precarious imho.

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