Masculine?....Feminine? - YouLookFab Forum

crutcher

Veteran

No not really...Interesting concept...

10 years ago

LucyRose

(website)

Active Member

What a fascinating question!

At the moment in fashion people are really enjoying playing with the masculine, feminine dichotomy. We see menswear inspired pieces for women and hairstyles that are "boyish". What's funny is that we don't really see many guys playing around with womenswear!

I think that in American culture we are a lot more relaxed about this than we used to be. But you will still find that many people are really appalled at the idea of getting outside those boxes.

10 years ago

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

It's a very interesting question. Feminine and masculine is all about stereotyping, norming and culture. You can spend your life doing PHDs in the Psychology department about this very topic - it's that loaded.

I will say though, that the stereotypes and boundaries are weakening each year - and even more so in 2015. Sometimes I question what feminine and masculine means at all - and send myself off into a tizzy. I have since tried not to use these terms to describe a sartorial vibe - but it's SO engrained in our culture that it's hard to leave gender stereotypes out of fashion descriptions. But I keep on striving.

10 years ago

Isabel

Veteran

What an interesting question. Before I read the others' replies, I am going to throw out my thoughts on this. I was raised in a household where it was very clearly delineated what was and wasn't "female" clothing. ( I am European ). My father would not us wear pants. My mom, who sewed, finally got him to agree that she would make us pink jeans with no fly. LOL ! My mom herself didn't wear a pair of pants until her 40s. And we lived in the Northeast with harsh winters ! But by high school, when men's Levi's were the rage and so were men's work boots, my parents kept their mouths shut but I know they HATED it. : )

I tried to raise my kids ( boy and girl ) very gender neutral. My son, a teenager, has no attraction to pink or purple. Otherwise, everything is a go...and he doesn't like wearing anything "dressed up". I don't think that he considers it "feminine", it is just that all the boys wear sports clothes all the time here. ALL THE TIME. No one even wears jeans anymore.

My daughter ( an almost teen ) just knows that she doesn't like "frills". But I have never heard her say it is "too girly" or "feminine". They love flannel shirts and t shirts and so on. Some girls wear sweat pants and baseball hats all the time. It is much easier for the girls to dress in what was considered traditionally "clothing".

I do believe that so much of the clothing thing has been a result of a traditionally homophobic tradition. I think that is changing. There is no stigma in my son's group of friends to wear pink, for example. BUT I am not sure how it would go over if one of the boys showed up in puffy sleeves. hmmmm.....

But your question made me realize that I have NEVER heard either of my kids or their friends ( who are at our house A LOT ) refer to clothing as belonging more to one gender than the other. How interesting. With that said, it is also made me think of how many fathers around here have no problem walking around with painted finger nails that their little girls paint on them. That makes me very happy.

10 years ago

Cococat

Veteran

Personally I am usually drawn to typically feminine looks for me, but I love to see a woman dress in a more "androgynous' style too. I sometimes wear my fathers pinstripe vest from the 1940s with manstyle pants, and it feels comfortable.

Kurt Cobain wore a dress in one of his music videos. In that situation it wasn't so outrageous, but it would be in most other contexts. Women can wear pants, shirts, even ties, but men don't have the option to wear stereotypically female clothing (usually). Men certainly have more gender restrictions with their clothing choices.

Edited because I don't think I answered the original question. Do I let society/religion dictate what I see as masculine/feminine? Religion..no...society, most definitely...there is no avoiding it.

10 years ago

rachylou

Veteran

It's an interesting question for a number of reasons. And such a good one!

First, I say interesting because humans are a social animal. These rules - no matter how random and arbitrary - are really important for people to function. Plus they aren't as arbitrary as one might think. Like it's not that great cornering someone's husband alone to be friends with, without properly acknowledging the wife. Sure, you may have nothing to say to the wife really; and you may have no interest in the man in "that way"; but it's about resources and claims on resources. Like time. Works the other way, of course.

Secondly because what society thinks is in no little part a product of our own imaginations and what the few people around us think (e.g., who is the great "they" - as in "they say"?). For example, it's more than ironic that I saw - and my apologies for even mentioning these things - a billboard for marijuana when tobacco billboards are illegal. My first thought was who are these people? But then I realised, they're two different sets of people.

Third, pink like high heels was originally designated for men - not women.

Fourth, many cultures - if not most - cultures are far more severe about categorizing things as masculine or feminine. It's ingrained in the very language with the masculine or feminine designation of nouns. English doesn't have that.

Fifth, there are differences between men and women... but it's not as extensive or where people think they are.

Sixth, society is an interesting thing. It relies on self-regulation more than enforcement and the rules are somewhat an outgrowth of our general tendency to think like this: I'm a girl so I limit myself to girl things.

But to answer the question: I most certainly do let society and religion define the norms for me. For me, it's a matter of organisation (IMHO, people don't do that well without norms), and they have an 'instutional' memory that I don't personally have but which is useful. On the other hand, I don't stay in the box. I accept that I defy certain norms and it's on my own head. I try not to be too much, though, because to repeat myself - I really do find other people have a really hard time getting on with themselves when the rules get too broken.

I also don't think clothes are that important an arena to maintain the norms. If we were a subsistence society, maybe I would. But we live in relative luxury and can afford to play...

Whoops! Accidentally wrote a book...

10 years ago

deb

Veteran

What a great question! I do not ever remember thinking in terms of masculine nor feminine. I suppose they are just not part of my vocabulary. As I think back to my childhood, I spent the school year in the city and the summers isolated in the woods. When I was in the city, I was expected to act and dress like a 'lady' when around older people but in the hills I was supposed to act just like my brothers. I would hunt, fish, chop down trees, all the normal survival stuff. It is funny, because my mom never did any of this. She stayed inside the trailer and knitted or played solitaire.

10 years ago

Kirstjen

Veteran

From my American perspective, I think it is very hard to avoid what our culture tells us is masculine/feminine, but I do think it is easy to cross the lines, regardless, and getting easier all the time. I say this about life in the US, western Europe. I think it is harder in other parts of the world to challenge society's standards. I think this even applies somewhat to Mediterranean culture more than the northern European areas. Scandinavians, Germans, Dutch women dress a lot less overtly sexy than the Italians. I think it is interesting that those northern Euro cultures are a lot more progressive regarding women's roles in society. I've actually had conversations with my husband about this while we've been traveling in those countries.

10 years ago

Gaylene

Veteran

As Angie and Rachylou have pointed out, this is a layered question--with clothing probably being one of the topmost and easiest to shed. From a biological perspective, I can't think of a single human society that doesn't recognize gender,although the classifications, roles, norms, and concepts can vary from group to group. Going against what I perceive are MY society's norms doesn't mean I'm unaffected by them. I always remember one of my cultural anthropology profs who told us that those of us who saw ourselves as unencumbered by prejudices, stereotypes, and social norms were delusional at best--and dangerous at worst.

So I guess my answer would be that, yes, I do let society, and to some extent the religious beliefs which are part of the Western religious canon which gave rise to this society, affect my thinking about gender. But do I think that boys and girls ought to dress differently--not really. What is "normal" for one decade can be turned completely around in another. My grandfather's baby picture at the turn of the last century show him in a frilly dress with long curls cascading around his shoulder--amusing since he grew into an imposing man with a beard--but both were very in keeping with societal norms.

10 years ago

Anonymous

Interesting indeed. Even the simple use of the words "masculine" and "feminine" can conjure up negative images when used to describe a look in fashion -depending on who the audience is. I have never fit the typical feminine mode - long hair, pretty clothes, pretty colours - and have always been drawn to the stereotypically masculine side of things. I used to worry about not looking female "enough" when I was in my 20's, 30's, and even into my 40's with my short hair - fearing I looked like a man. How backward ? Can you believe that? Now, in my 50"s, I have adopted the "I don't give a ___ what you think" attitude. I think I've gone way off track of the question here

And religious dictum - do not even get me started on that topic. Most of the religious mandates on clothing and what is "acceptable" seem to be directed at woman, and dismissive of their power, demeaning and judgmental. I go out of my way to do just the opposite ( at least in my head I do) , being of the intellectual and secular world, rather than a historically influenced and religiously dogmatic world .

10 years ago

Echo

Veteran

"...

those of us who saw ourselves as unencumbered by prejudices, stereotypes, and social norms were delusional at best--and dangerous at worst."

Amen to this, Gaylene. Anyone who thinks they do not hold fairly deep-seated views on what is acceptable vs unacceptable from a gender perspective is kidding themself, IMO. Gender differences start forming before birth from a nature perspective, and at the moment of birth (perhaps even before) from a nurture perspective.

Many parents say they try to raise a child without any gender expectations, but I think that's impossible. Children learn what is associated with girls vs boys before their second birthday and possibly long before that. Studies indicate that people respond to an infant differently, depending on whether they think the infant is a boy or a girl. These differences run deep and are ingrained to such an extent that we can never eliminate them. Those who strive to treat boys and girls the same often are depending on stereotypes in the first place (offering girls trucks and boys dolls in an attempt to be "equal").

Even those who follow a child's lead are more dogmatic about it than the child often is. Many parents who see a boy want to wear pink and be a princess for Halloween continue to push that identity, even when it may have been an experiment for the child and the child wants to move on to experiment with other identities. Adults are quick to think that the way a child acts at one point in time defines the child's identity when in fact many children like to experiment with what society often sees as loaded gender stereotypes..

Clothing and stereotypical standards of gender behaviour help identify tribe, and ALL humans are tribal creatures. We use our societal norms to show who and what we are, whether we live in Manhattan or in Kinshasa. To that extent, I think our concepts of what is masculine and what is feminine, and to what extent we can push those boundaries are crucial in our identities. The woman firefighter is in a different tribe from the woman who never wears trousers or cuts her hair due to religious belief. Neither is right or wrong, but their respective beliefs about the role of women and men in society dictate what they find acceptable in terms of clothing and actions. It forms how each person sees themselves and how each person is viewed by others.

10 years ago

Anonymous

It can be hard for me to let go of my gender associations if the item was predominantly worn traditionally only by men, or women, for example, wingtips oxfords, dresses, etc.
Assessing the overall vibe seems more useful and more likely to inform me about someone, in so far as that's possible using only clothes!

10 years ago

Robin

Active Member

No time to give a deep, considered response here, but just wanted to say how much I love this thread.

A lot of my friends and acquaintances don't identify with the gender binary of woman/man, so I think about these distinctions a lot, not just in theory but in how we express them in behaviour, clothing, and more.

Wanted to echo what someone else said, that, at least in Canadian and U.S. societies, it's generally a lot more acceptable for a woman to dress in masculine-looking clothing than it is for a man to dress in feminine-looking clothing - so much so that if someone looks like a man but is dressed in feminine clothing, they're at incredibly high risk of verbal and physical violence.

As to my own considerations on this...I'm generally drawn to feminine clothing from a style point of view - lots of lovely fabrications, unique cuts and drapes, and so on. From an overall perspective, though, I don't let social ideas of femininity dictate my overall presentation; I'm not at all interested in make-up, in keeping my nails polished, and in satisfying other appearance expectations like that.

Sorry this is a little rambly. I keep looking at the clock realizing I need to go get dressed to go out.

Your reply

10 years ago

Echo

Veteran

I have to agree with PP, too, how interesting it is that things associated with men can be worn by/used by women and can even come to be associated more with women than with men. In terms of fashion, this might include heels, tall boots, pants, oxfords (or almost all shoe styles), hairstyles and more.

But almost more interesting is how men's names have been used for women and how some are now viewed exclusively as women's names. Names like this include Ashley, Beverly, Dana, Evelyn, Lynn, Shirley, Vivian, Whitney, Hilary, Allison, Gale, Kelley, Kim, Lauren, Lesley, Lindsay, Meredith, Morgan, Sandy, Reese, Carol, Michele, Shelly. And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There are many others that are more modern, like Dakota. However, I cannot think of an instance where a woman's name has come to be used primarily for men.

10 years ago

Gaylene

Veteran

Interesting point, Echo, especially since rejecting the "feminine" for a more androgynous/ambiguous form derived from what society considers the "masculine" seems to reveal a rather potent sterotyping in itself--namely that a masculine-based androgyne is powerful and independent while a feminine-based androgyne is much less desirable.

And we like to see ourselves as rebels/free-thinkers who defy our cultural norms when we pull on our ragged jeans, boots, and moto jackets. Maybe the true rebels are the ones who reach for the lace, ruffles, and towering heels when trying to create a genderless look.

10 years ago

Caro in Oz

Veteran

This is a really interesting topic & so complex I agree totally that we are first & foremost social creatures.

As a child of the '60s I saw how individuals & groups can & do push boundaries to effect great change & not just in clothing choices

10 years ago

Olivegreen

Active Member

I always find it funny that it is still believed that gender/sexual orientation is a choice. It is a result of biological processes. On and off switches. Chemicals. Change the chemicals and you can change many things that you may consider fundamental about you.
The cultural expression of gender and sexuality is quite variable and in some societies, rigidly policed.
Playful fashion is a joy, a freedom. I like wearing masculine clothes as much as feminine articles, and always have, as a child and now.
Women appropriate mens clothes (and names because men have power and control. Men who like power and control will hardly appropriate symbols of femininity.
Lastly, it is disturbing to many when people cross dress or present as sexually ambiguous, as one of the most salient things about a stranger is gender. This is because men are perceived as dangerous. Women are not. We need to know who to worry about.
Yes, used to study this stuff.

10 years ago

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

Great thread Ledonna! Absolutely agree both that gender and other stereotypes are deeply embedded AND that we can push back against them where they begin to chafe. Israeli culture is much more overtly sexist than American culture in some ways: all nouns are gendered, religious Israelis have very specific gender related dress codes, there is a lot of sexism entrenched in the army despite the stereotype of the female Israeli soldier (pretty much a myth, at least when comes to combat situations). On the other hand, Israeli women seem to have exactly the same career expectations as men - and the society seems to support woman working with many more good and socially acceptable early childhood care options, maternity/paternity leave is nationwide law, names are pretty much androgynous, and in areas such as army intelligence the best succeed regardless of gender. In short it is complicated.
And if you dress your boy toddler in red shoes, you will get a lot of loudly stated disapproval, as I learned.

10 years ago

rachylou

Veteran

This is totally OT, but I went to the most progressive schools. Had to take 'social living' like 4 times. Did y'all know there are people married to trees? What does a tree wear to get married? I ask.

10 years ago

Ledonna N.

Veteran

@ RACHYLOU by root a tree is a naturist by default it would wear nothing but a crown of leafs.

10 years ago

DonnaF

Veteran

I am cisgendered and straight so I may not be qualified to comment. When I dress in an androgynous style, it is always in clothing made for women. When some lesbian/non-binary/queer identified friends and acquaintances do so, it is more often in clothing cut for men/boys so it looks/hangs differently. IMHO, the difference in tailoring transmits a different signal.

It cracks me up that DD dresses in a far more traditionally feminine style than I ever did. I never put her in dresses when she was little, and she never went through that princess stage, but I gotta say she dresses more hoochy than I would like.

10 years ago

rachylou

Veteran

Another random thought: I'm prep-school. Preppies are renown for their androgynous dress. Everybody is 'Pat'... When other people do androgyny, I note it's more gender-bending...

10 years ago

Ledonna N.

Veteran

I enjoyed reading everyone thoughts and perspectives on these questions. From the lighthearted to the very in depth analysis. This can be a very decisive subject matter for some. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think women tend to borrow move heavily from the men than the other way around.

I was recently reading an article about Jaden Smith (Will Smith's son) He has be pictured wearing skirts and dress. On social media it is causing somewhat of an uproar. I think about the different cultures who traditionally wear some type of wrap around the waist. Some people were saying that you have to look masculine to wear this type of clothing.

Very interesting how some of society judges a person by what they choose to wear or how they choose to present themselves.

10 years ago

approprio

(website)

Veteran

I believe we all exist on a spectrum between the masculine and the feminine, with most of us functioning quite happily somewhere in between. Many women have a mannish streak and lots of men have a feminine side. That's fine, but it falls down when we're expected to "perform" to a gender stereotype which pushes us into a box marked male or female. I think this is just as hard for men as it is for women.

Still, the boundaries are becoming more and more fluid, and it's much easier for those of us living in liberal secular societies to explore sartorial identities beyond gender. I myself love having access to both menswear and womenswear in my style, and I like seeing men being able to do the same at last. But I don't think it's accidental that the emergence of more feminine styling in menswear is coincident with the return of the beard, which is more or less what Ledonna said - men can wear women's styles, but only if they look sufficiently butch.

In general, gender neutral dressing has up until now been about women taking on menswear, and clothes that are considered unisex are almost always based on that - menswear cut for women, so the standard has always been masculine rather than feminine. But we've also seen straight guys looking great in sparkle, frills, heels, skirts, leggings and all kinds of glam stuff (Prince, Hendrix, Bowie and Beckham to name a few). Maybe things can change.

So to answer the question, do I let society's norms dictate? Absolutely, because I'm a product of a very liberal society which allows me access to both sides. I try to steer clear of standards which I know will read in an overtly feminine or sexualised way that I am not comfortable with. Maybe that's my prejudice.

And I love Jaden. Will and Jada should be so proud.

10 years ago

Anonymous

I think the appropriation of masculine clothing by women creates less disruption than the reverse in part because male sexuality is considered a more significant force in society, so ambiguity is more unsettling.

10 years ago

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