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Kitchen renovations

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Ok, YLF hive mind, I want to get your feedback on something because I know many of you have been through big reno projects:

How did you approach your major kitchen renovation projects? Did you hire a designer or architect to help you plan and design the space? How much help did you have? Or did you use a design/build company? How thorough were your plans — did you have detailed plan and elevation drawings for your builders to work from?

My husband is convinced that we do not need the help of professionals other than our builders. I have studied architecture and interior design (I got halfway through an Associates degree when my mom died, and I never resumed studies), and worked as a design assistant but only helped space plan and select finishes and furnishings for living spaces, no kitchens or baths. The idea of taking the responsibility for redesigning our kitchen without a designer makes me VERY nervous. I feel like my husband has a little too much faith in my knowledge and he feels I have too little.

To be clear, this is not a minor project — we have a large kitchen space that is open to the dining and living spaces, so it is especially critical that we do this right. The house is contemporary with angled ceilings, skylights, and some quirks. We may be redesigning the kitchen to the degree where all the plumbing and appliances will move — all the more reason to have the help of someone who really knows their stuff.

I’m going to do a bunch of research, and we are going to talk with the builders who are working on our bathrooms before any decisions are made, but I guess I’m just looking for your personal experiences and any advice you may have.

Thanks in advance!

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43 replies

Latest reply was from Janet

Bennett

Veteran

If you are going with custom cabinetry like we did, there typically is a designer on staff to help you configure the kitchen according to your wants and needs as well as the "rules" of placement of appliances and flow. It was a back and forth process where we tossed in our ideas and thoughts and wants and they steered us away from any major mistakes. However you decide to go, take all the time you need in the planning. Yeah, if I felt the way you do, I would insist on some kind of professional designer. Peace of mind is worth it in my book!

rachylou

Veteran

We went with a design/build company. It has to be said we dictated most of the design functionality requirements and aesthetics, the designers were a bit useless that way. And the glass-fronted backsplash behind the stove was all me, right up to getting the right sort of glass and gluing on the picture we wanted behind it. But they had the access to the nicer cabinets, hardware... there are lots of companies that only sell to the trade. Also, they were up on the current regulations. We were seeking permits in a December, meaning new lighting regulations were going into effect in January... so there was a decision there we wouldn’t have known about, delay a month or not. They handled all that irritating stuff, going to city hall etc., and they had their crews all organised and oversaw them. It’s a full time job.

Classically Casual

Veteran

We worked with a very small design/build company and it went well. We really connected with the designer, and liked him a lot. This little company only did kitchens and bathrooms. Ours was a total gut job. It turns out there’s all kinds of specialized knowledge like clearance, and lots more I can’t recall, that certainly matter in the final outcome. My husband had a couple of great ideas along the way we were able to incorporate with no hassle. Other than being without a kitchen during the reno, it was a good experience.

Good luck!!!

carter

Veteran

I haven't done a major kitchen reno, but I did own a real estate company for 15 years and have seen many renovations gone terribly wrong! Houzz.com is a fabulous source for both inspiration and finding a designer. In Atlanta, we would typically expect to pay 15ish% of the reno cost for the design and project oversight. $7500 on a $50k renovation. Not cheap, but certainly more prudent than not getting it right.

Runcarla

Veteran

Veteran of several renos! No matter how much you know, a good design/build shop will often know more. They are up on all the new tricks. They will know the codes and get the permits. Relocating plumbing and electrical is tricky and expensive - but can be done. (We've had heating ducts moved!). When I laid out my problems and wish list, the designers had genius solutions. Look at their portfolio of work and find one who gets your aesthetic. Get a kitchen specialist for your kitchen.

I do have a few suggestions, though. (1) No matter what price you settle on (have an itemized contract) have extra money in reserve that you won't regret spending (2) allow extra time beyond what is quoted. During one reno there was a death in the family of our super builder guy and he asked for a week off. We weren't inconvenienced by the delay and he and his partner worked so hard and did such meticulous work that I didn't want anyone else. Last month, we finished a simple rec room reno, but a snow storm and product delays turned a one week job into a 3 week project! (3) sometimes conventional fixtures are best. We spent $$$ on a streamlined low flow toilet and when a piece broke 7 years after purchase, the toilet had to be replaced because the toilet and parts were no longer made or available! A deeper sink that was undermounted required new plumbing. (No regrets there, but extra cost than if we had gone with a same size replacement sink.)

FYI, after every renovation project, I was a happy customer and kicked myself that I didn't do it earlier. Also, the permitted and inspected work with documentation was an asset when we sold our homes. (I kept a binder with records of all work done.)

taylor

Veteran

I have renovated 3 kitchens /homes . I designed each kitchen but worked with contractors.
Runcarla has some VERY good info !
I will say this:
Save EVERYTHING verbally communicated through an e-mail or text .
CONFIRM everything the same way....and hang onto them.
One little e-mail communication that I saved 4 months prior saved me thousands....literally. We agreed verbally that the installation of the custom cabininets would be included in the price . I confirmed that via- e-mail . But he snuck it into the contract as an additional price . When he claimed installation absolutely was not included ...i had the e-mail.
ITEMIZED contracts are essential as well.

rachylou

Veteran

I have to add this: make sure the pipes specificied fit inside the wall. My cousin is an architect... this is something seen over and over!

Jane

Veteran

Hi Janet, I have given this some thought as to what I would do - I would encourage you to have professional advice. Your eye and understanding is outstanding, far and beyond what builders will normally experience. But I think that your energies should be devoted to making sure that what the finished affect will be just right, with a zero compromise approach - if you get involved in making sure that every detail is right, then you might miss something big, that you will find difficult to live with afterwards.

If it helps at all, this is what I think and try and do on a daily basis at work - zero compromise (I often think I wonder what Coco would have done - would she compromise or push harder for an outstanding solution - even when choosing things like paving slabs!!! - very important because we walk on them every day, in my view!!).

So, being an uncompromising client is a role in itself and absorbing and requires a reasonable amount of energy and focus, that your builders and advisers will thank you for afterwards - they only want to do outstanding work too I should think.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Great advice and you are all confirming my feelings. I'll write more on the topic later -- it's early yet and I have a lot of other stuff on my plate before we even get to the planning stages of this project. But hubs kinda threw this on me yesterday and just thinking about it stressed me out even worse than I already am. I need to take one thing at a time. Thank you for your thoughtful, thorough replies!

Gail

Veteran

I used a kitchen design company They did the design and all the rest. They even photographed my old kitchen and sold everything for me for a small fee ! Nice to recycle. I'm pretty good at stuff like this but I did not feel comfortable doing the kitchen . There are so many nooks and crannies that can be utilized so well by somebody who is the kitchen design field. Also the fear of making an incorrect measurement was heavy on my mind lol. My designer had so many options that I would never have thought of, he was great he hand drew all the plans up. My kitchen is open to the family room and really the rest of the house so I needed it to be right.
I bought many kitchen magazines, stalked blogs and new build /open houses so I could to see what I liked and what I did not. I also thought long and hard about how I used my kitchen.
I just renovated my bathroom and couldn't find a bathroom designer that would just do a design, they were all affiliated with build companies which was a problem as I had my own contractor. I ended up doing it myself which wasn't really bad as I decided not to change the basic footprint but if I'd had a designer with more ideas I may have . Possibly I saved myself $$ by not moving stuff around too much.and having lots other ideas! Good luck and happy planning:)

Stagiaire Fash

Veteran

Being able to do it yourself isn't necessarily a criteria for whether or not to hire someone. Most people can mow their own lawns, clean their own homes, detail their own cars, but many hire someone else to do it because they don't want to diy. Your design experience will make you a better consumer. Maybe they'll spend fewer billable hours because of you, or maybe you'll catch them trying to cut a corner and save money that way. But that doesn't mean you need to take on the whole job.

Barbara Diane

Veteran

Lots of wise words above, especially the confirmation emails or use signed change notices. I have way less knowledge than you but my husband thinks I should be able to manage something like this. No.

Barbara Diane

Veteran

But yes to staying on top of everything. My SIL got a call from an observant neighbor that the landscaper was burying broken equipment into the mound being created.
My MIL drove the builder crazy with her daily oversight when their track home was under construction. But they used one of her design change requests on all the following similar houses.
Good luck.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

I've lived through 2 kitchen renos. The first one, we did ourselves with the help of a builder friend, but apart from removing a wall, adding a bar sink, changing appliances, shifting a door placement, and changing our countertops, we weren't doing much. LOL. What I mean is that the general layout stayed the same. We did take down some cabinets and add some shelves, and on reflection I felt we could have done a lot better with the design of those. But we had limited funds.

Our next kitchen reno included all new cabinetry and an entirely new layout. We worked with our builder friend AND a kitchen design firm. This one was much more successful. We had a small space that we wanted to make the best possible use of, and the house had many hidden surprises (such as a buried chimney). We actually began with one design, but changed it mid-way (before cabinetry or anything had been built or installed). We changed it as a result of the chimney discovery -- ending up with our stove in a corner placement, which helped us in other ways. I liked the woman we worked with and the installers were also great. Our friend did the framing/ walls, etc. and demolition and they did the install.

The others have given great advice re record keeping and financial and time considerations. It ALWAYS takes longer than you think it will. ALWAYS.

I was washing our dishes in the bathtub and cooking on our BBQ or microwave in our garden room for months. Luckily we had great summer weather and could eat outdoors!

Anonymous

I haven't done any major renovations, but have been playing on a site called Roomstyler lately. Basically you can design rooms from top to bottom on it
It's no charge to use, but the furniture etc is products that actually exist (I assume that's how they fund it).
Then you take pics of what it would look like IRL- like this.
Be warned- its addictive

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Anonymous

Our kitchen reno was just over $50 grand. We went with a kitchen designer who made detailed computer drawings of what we wanted. We took measurements and they did as well. It was an entire gut job. We did not move any plumbing but did add electrical lighting, outlets and switches. They also took care of disposing everything (just getting a dumpster on your own can be very pricey).

We initially made a list of what we wanted in our new kitchen and the designer was able to incorporate it into the plans. After seeing the drawings we made changes (initially we wanted a peninsula and eat bar, but later decided against the eat bar because it cut down on the workspace area of the kitchen). The designer has a guy who does all the electrical wiring, plumbing, and cabinet install. We hired the flooring guys who ripped out the old floor and installed the new floor and installed the backsplash (last step)and the designer coordinated the install of the counter tops

We kept the basic layout, but took out the island and put in a peninsula. We were also able to remove the soffits and get taller cabinets (cabinets were custom made (solid wood) and so were the soft close drawers. Also reconfigured depth of the pantry so we could put in a counter depth refrigerator (stainless steel). At base of pantry we put in a kickplate for a heating/cooling vent). also put in all led recessed lights in the ceiling with a dimmer switch (best thing we did was to put these lights on a dimmer). All corner cabinets have a lazy susan, all drawers and cabinets are a soft close. Another important addition was undercabinet led lighting - this in itself is usually enough lighting for cooking. We also put in one recessed led light over the sink.

What I like about the peninsula is that we put in a very wide drawer for all my baking utensils. Bottom cabinets are all adjustable pull out drawers so I can easily fit my mixer and crock pots, etc. I also have a narrow lower cabinet for pans, pizza pans, cutting boards, cookie sheets, etc.

From start to finish it took 4 weeks and a couple of days. It has been almost 3 years since our renovation and I would not change one thing about our kitchen.

The things to really think about are outlets and lighting. You want to make sure the outlets are where they will be needed and you have enough light where you need it. Also, make sure that the areas around the kitchen are sealed off since there will be a great deal of dust. While they cleaned up at the end of the day, I went in with the vacuum cleaner and cleaned up more thoroughly.

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Anonymous

We hired a kitchen designer and it was well worth it. She knew all the possibilities and made sure everything would be up to code, like room for a wheelchair, etc. and other things I had not even thought of. I wanted to convert a walk in pantry into a laundry room with smaller sized machines
She said they would be greatly improved in a couple of years and it would be better to wait. The result was beautiful.

Anonymous

danusia - your kitchen is gorgeous!

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Thanks for all the wise advice and inspiration!

Here are some “before” photos to show you what we are dealing with: - a collection of 1980’s finishes, mediocre lighting, a table and seating area we never use, a stove with only two burners, and a fair amount of awkward storage space in that island. Oh, and ugly white tile with multiple dogs. We can’t wait to redo this! As you can see, it is totally open to the dining and living rooms and the loft. It’s going to be a challenge to live here during this renovation.

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JAileen

Veteran

Our old kitchen was nearly 40 years old when we decided to redo it. We ended up adding onto the house. The new space is half kitchen and half family room. Although it’s wonderful having a large island and new appliances, I love the improved lighting. I used to cast a shadow on my cutting board when I was cutting up things. Now our “new” kitchen is nearly 20 years old. If I were redoing it now, I might do things slightly different, but it’s so functional that it’s still a pleasure cooking there.

rachylou

Veteran

Now I’m thinking, ‘What would Joanna Gaines do?’ Lol. Have to say, that’s an awkward kitchen, Janet. I hate having to walk around an island, but I’d be tempted to put one long counter island in... But i like a good run of counter for rolling dough, which most people probably don’t need...

Janet

(website)

Veteran

LOL, I have never even watched Joanna Gaines. And I don't remember the last time I rolled dough.

I would like to have a longer island that extends out a bit into the area where the current table and chairs are, with perhaps a small bar top area and a couple of stools. And I have an idea of putting pantry cabinets along that red wall, somehow. It is awkward, and the big windows don't help the functionality of that side of the room, but I would hate to lose them (especially since we just had them replaced a couple of years ago). See, this is why we need a good kitchen designer.

rachylou

Veteran

The red wall does say, ‘Make me pantry cabinets.’ That was my second thought... My absolute dream kitchen has a counter-depth fridge, but one should really design a kitchen for standard appliances....

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Yes! I know what you mean. There are certain spaces in this kitchen that beg to keep their function. The actual "cooking triangle" works quite well so I don't really care to depart too much from the general placement of where things are, BUT I am open to ideas if they make more sense than what we have now. My husband is not always the most practical in his ideas. LOL He wants to tear out all those upper cabinets and put in a huge plate glass window. I think I have him talked down from that.

Stagiaire Fash

Veteran

I love those skylights; once your kitchen is done it will uplift so many other areas in your home! The headaches of trying to figure it all out are obvious. Is your husband afraid a designer wouldn't respect your wishes?

Janet

(website)

Veteran

FI, it's more that my husband doesn't think a designer will add value worth the cost. He gets it in his head that anyone worthwhile is going to be super-expensive, and I don't believe that is the case.

We've hashed things a bit more over the last few days, and also had a brief chat with our builder today (they are not a design/build operation and do recommend working with a kitchen designer who they've worked with lots before), and I think I have him seeing the light a bit more.

gryffin

Veteran

We did a huge remodel. Truly, it took the proverbial village. We fired the first kitchen designer (he was the only one who had the cabinets we wanted - don't ask) but he had introduced us to a delightful interior designer before we parted ways. We added an all season's room, extended the kitchen 2' with a compete remodel, full new basement room, put in a pool, new deck and pavers, all 3 bathrooms, windows, all interior door....and we lived in the house. It took 1.5 yr. Most importantly, do your homework - know as close as you can what you want but be open - the amazing suggestions come from everywhere. We had an architect, contractor, interior designer, kitchen company/designer all on board. The books that were most helpful were Sarah Susanka's "the not so small house", "a pattern language" by Nicholas Alexander and the Lauri Ward books on "use what you have decorating" 1. The most important thing I learned was to concentrate on function and how I wanted the space to work. I'm a person who needs a huge space to prepare feasts - I wanted a huge island with nothing on it, we build an upholstered banquette enclosed with 1/2 wall panties, bookcases and columns to create shelter around activity. We cathedraled the ceiling over the sink. Do you want to eat at your island? How many chairs do you require? Do you want a sink or cooking appliance? Do you want a separate fridge/freezer and yes they can open as books with the handles on each side. God is in those details!!! Like do you need a bread box (I know it doesn't keep it fresher but it needs to be off my counter? Where do you need plugs and how many because you decide what lives up there. Do you want appliance garages? 2. It was very important to me to integrate every room into one harmonious whole. Color scheme was based on my floors which a are hardwood - cream and stenciled in apricot with a faux marble foyer and intricate banding in the dining room and living room. I planned everything to play on the color and "faux" theme. So my entire first floor is theme and variation with a faux painted piece, or tile rug mimicing the foor stencil, back spash etc. Integrating but changing the formality - the sequence of spaces in a pattern language, makes it flow as a whole. 3. In decor, and sorry preaching to an artist, repeat motifs in different ways. The cream cabinets have some bead board with dark brown line, I picked craftsmans pendant lights on long dark stems and my bar stools again repeat the color and line. Similar all my hardware is brushed silver but I vary knobs and pulls, change pattern to create interest but picking what is appropriate to drawer, appliance size but it matches 4. never underestimate the power of a fabulous chandelier, unexpected art (thai kalaga) and fabric. 5. think multi functional. I bought a table for our circular banquette and had it faux painted with the top becoming a chess board (my husband plays very well) we have a lovely box of pieces ready for play. The faux painting repeats the theme but adding function is unexpected and interesting. 6. do you own space plan. Let everyone help you, let the professionals check it, but you your own work, slavishly. You can have everything you want, and no one knows what that is but you. Get your graph paper out and keep drawing. I'm sorry, this is a book and I'm not even warmed up yet. But I will tell you my husband and I still stare at everything with such love, it's as perfect as we could make it with almost no mistakes. Lastly and this is from DH, put absolutely everything on dimmers!!! The good ones!! Good luck and enjoy the process, plan, plan, plan but rely on the pros to help, suggest, but always with an eye on helping you achieve your vision!!

DonnaF

Veteran

I agree with checking out the Houzz site -- both kitchen and appliance forums.

Also, the National Kitchen and Bath Association (NKBA) site for guidelines, questionnaire, etc.

My kitchen is tiny, and we remodeled about 15 years ago. Changing the footprint wasn't an option. The very best thing I did was hire an INDEPENDENT kitchen designer for a consult -- maybe one or two hours. She had no skin in the game and was not trying to sell me any products. She had been a home ec teacher in an earlier life and came with ideas and suggestions, many of which were no-cost.

For example:
Hang shelves such that stuff on them has minimal head space, then order more shelves. They are cheaper than more cabinets.

Use turntables/lazy susans for bottles and stemmed glasses. You only need to grab the bottom of those items, and it enables you to put those things on higher shelves than you might consider otherwise. (Remember that I am 5'1" with short arms.) Same with books on a shelf and cooky sheets and cut boards stored on edge over the refrigerator.

Dishwasher should be close to where you store dishes; second choice is close to where you eat.

I really recommend drawers instead of bottom cabinets, and frameless ones at that because they hold so much more.

I can't believe my painted cabinets started chipping something like a month after the warranty expired!!!

I wanted my kitchen to harmonize with my 1928 house, so that steered many of my decisions. Same with my tolerance for imperfection and DH's carelessness. Soapstone counters are perfect for us: You can put stuff down without a trivet, they are supposed to be a bit scratched like lived in jeans, and they are period appropriate. Shiny granite is too formal for who we are, and marble would take more mindfulness than DH is capable of.

Really take stock of how or if you cook, bake and entertain and for how many and how you shop. Everyone is different. We don't use our picnic stuff much, but I decided I keep track of it better if it is in a cabinet above a doorway. Yes, I have to use a stool to get to it, but I know exactly where it is. Otherwise, the stuff would be in several places and I would forget. We have sort of a false cabinet above our hood fan but it has shelves interrupted by the duct. It is great for cramming in more than a dozen rolls of paper towels that won't damage anything if any fall as I pull a roll out.

Have fun!

Janet

(website)

Veteran

All great ideas and suggestions! I’m on my phone so hard to respond individually, but I do appreciate all the thoughtful replies.

Donna, we have the opposite “reach” issue. Hubs is 6’6” so we need to place things so that both a giant and an average-sized person can reach them LOL.

We definitely already have some ideas and preferences in finishes and fixtures and appliances. The space planning is really a big starting point though.

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