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Kill the Office Dress Code?

Gretchen

Veteran

The Atlantic says it's time...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ma.....de/609070/

What do you think?

40 replies

Latest reply was from rachylou

Echo

Veteran

Of course, the article makes valid points about hair, makeup and possibly hosiery. While the article didn't mention it, it should go without saying that things that can damage your health, like heels, should never be required. Things about a person's natural self (hair, natural face) shouldn't require changing (with the exception of minimal hygiene - not smelling, occasionally washing, etc.).

But to do away with a dress code? Absolutely not. I don't know when the last time you were out was, but there are scores of people with absolutely no common sense. Cover what needs to be covered? Half the reason there are dress codes is because people DON'T cover what needs to be covered. I do not want to go to a professional and see them wearing yoga pants and flip-flops. I don't want professionals in any capacity wearing baggy sweat pants or tube tops. And while dress codes may not specify things like this and it may be unpopular to say, I will definitely discriminate against someone like, say, an attorney, with multi-colored hair, gauged piercings, visible tattoos, etc.

I know that for people here, it wouldn't be a problem to eliminate dress codes. MOST people do know how to dress appropriately. However, in the event that someone does NOT know how to dress properly, the dress code allows places of business recourse. There must be minimum standards of dress and grooming. I'm not trying to split hairs about whether dress pants can contain spandex. I'm just putting it out there that many people will not dress appropriately without a dress code. And, yes, studies do indicate that people perform better when they are dressed well.

https://www.scientificamerican.....rformance/

Kathie

Veteran

Since I work in academia, I don't have a dress code. Or, if there is one, it's absolutely never been discussed, not even when I was onboarded with HR. For me, freedom from a dress code also means the right to set my own brand, and live with the consequences of that. I don't wear "leggings as pants" to work, not because I can't, but because it's not part of my personal brand, and not something I'd wear, if I want to advance my career within my institution. Anyway, I'm all for dropping dress codes. I'll still wear my sheath dresses whenever I want:).

rachylou

Veteran

I really don’t know. I’ve worked in tech, now a bakery, my whole life manufacturing. The thing in both industries, ALL have been adamant about, is NO SUITS. I like suits. On the other hand, ties are an extremely bad idea around machinery.

Also: I *do* miss when all flight attendants were stewardesses, blonde and 19. On the other hand, I acknowledge how gross that is, what is required to achieve that uniform Barbie appearance.

hereforthecake

I'm torn.....I work in a fairly casual workplace but I know there are lots of younger staff (20's) who would wear inappropriate clothing if there weren't some guidelines. I would like to think otherwise, but I know I'd regret it.

JAileen

Veteran

I posted this picture here six years ago, when I was a CASA. I saw it at the courthouse. I was flabbergasted they needed to specify things that weren’t acceptable for court. But just the other day, a judge said he wanted people to dress appropriately for a court hearing even if it was on Zoom.

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rachylou

Veteran

Heh. You know, my dad was from a third world country. When I was little, in the olden days, people only had one pair of shoes that they put on on Sundays, when they got to church. I don’t know if that’s respect or an example of the ridiculousness of colonialism...

nemosmom

Veteran

I think people would have to back to working in offices first.... I wonder how many companies will shift to remote working when (if) this is all over:

https://www.vox.com/recode/202.....gn-archite

Helena

Veteran

Hmm, I'm going to have to use my trademark both/and for this one ... on the one hand, I think it's unavoidable that our clothing makes an impression and conveys an image, and it's valid for an employer to expect its employees to convey that too (not to mention the personal benefits) ... on the other hand, I think it's really important to update dress codes to suit the times and their purpose, especially insofar as they support racist/sexist/classist etc. norms that have nothing to do with professionalism at all (natural hair texture comes to mind, for which many people of colour have been judged and penalized atrociously).

I think it's worth highlighting the bit about Mark Zuckerberg and his hoodies - this works IF you are Mark Zuckerberg (love him or hate him, he's a genius) ... if I'm Jo Average (which I most definitely am), I am not impressing anyone at work in a gray hoodie That's just reality, and I serve myself by dressing accordingly.

To Nemos point, I think it will be extremely interesting to see how many employees decide their kitchen is a better office than their office, and resist going back!

Anonymous

Supporting Echo all the way and in every detail, could not possibly say it better.

Gaylene

Veteran

As a newly minted, 21-year-old teacher, rather terrified of facing a class of rambunctious 13-14 year-olds, I begged an older teacher to tell me what rules I needed to establish to keep some semblance of control in my classroom. Fortunately, I had chosen a wise advisor who told me to nix a specific list and opt for a simple “I expect you to behave appropriately towards me and your classmates”.

That single “rule” stood me in good stead for over 30 years of teaching in the school system and at university. The problem with defined “rules” is that people generally don’t like being told how to behave and immediately start focusing on ways to bend the rules or look for ways to make enforcement look arbitrary or ridiculous. It becomes a game with the person in charge looking like a bully or an idiot.

I think of dress codes in the same way. Dressing appropriately in the workplace isn’t about wearing—or not wearing—certain items; it’s about showing respect for the position you hold in the eyes of your clients and colleagues. What you wear can help someone who meets you for the first time trust you enough to have a productive interaction—especially if a power or social inequality exists between the participants.

A simple request for “appropriate” dress puts the onus on the employee to define his or her own dress code based on the requirements of the position. You don’t “kill the dress code”, you kill the idea of trying to enforce suitable dress by outlawing random, specific items which rarely make sense to anyone. “Inappropriate” behavior, or dress, is best handled on an individual basis with both parties listening to each other.

Echo

Veteran

I also think dress codes are often there to protect the employer, not the employee. In other words, in a litigious society, it is difficult to justify writing someone up for violating an unwritten dress code. It protects a company if it is right there in black and white. Yes, students will look for ways to bend a dress code, but adults generally don't. But it protects the company and gives them recourse if an employee consistently shows up to work breaking dress code. To attempt to discipline someone based on what's "appropriate" is next to impossible.

I would love what Gaylene said to be true. With what I would consider reasonable adults, it wouldn't be an issue. But I've seen some crazy things from people who were old enough to know better. And I can say from experience that a dress code protects the company.

Jenni NZ

Veteran

Again, some of this depends where you are in the world. In NZ and in what I have seen in Australia- forum members, articles, Australian fashion magazines and on my trips there- there are definitely climate related acceptable dress ideas like that sleeveless is totally fine for professional women. I also think our cultures are a bit more casual overall.
I do not have a dress code in the practice and have never had to ask a staff member to dress more appropriately. They just seem to do it naturally.
Rules like the ones J’Aileen posted at the court will unfortunately continue to be needed I would say. But to Rachylou’s point about her father’s one pair of shoes, such a rule does assume the person has something other than flip-flops to wear, which with poverty, might not always be the case. Which is why a charity like Dress for Success continues to be needed.
I hope personally that it continues to relax gradually. And that the trend for flat or more comfortable shoes for women stays.

Kathie

Veteran

To Gaylene's point, I guess GM (according to the article) has already moved in this direction, with simply "Dress appropriately." GM is certainly not Facebook, and I'm sure they had plenty of lawyers look at this. Probably decided it would save them on law suits over discrimination. The Atlantic article also reminded me of one from Vox, about the power suit losing it's power. It also speaks to some issues around class, and signaling status, through not wearing a suit.

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/.....ar-decline

Gaylene

Veteran

Oddly, I have always had more success requesting "appropriate" attire (or behaviour) from a defiant student than from attempting to discipline them into adherence to a fixed set of arbitrary rules.

As for dress codes protecting a company from litigation, unless a bona fide occupational qualification is involved, is such a thing even feasible these days? Demonstrating that a prohibited item isn't violating gender neutrality, religious accommodation, cultural awareness, attention to disability issues, consistent enforcement, and consideration of cost to the employee is a tall order.

Nope, after dealing with too many crazy things worn by people who should have known better (Bikini bottoms for pants? Strategically ripped T-shirts? A tent (seriously!)?), I've found that listening, and then requesting, got me further than trying to discipline anyone over the age of 3.

People like to wear what they like to wear. And even the tent wearer had a reason for his attire; he was deathly afraid of germs.

Echo

Veteran

I'll grant that my experience is from a while back when I worked in retail, but we definitely had to discipline employees based on dress code violations. When the answer for why they wore something virtually transparent without appropriate undergarments was, "Because my boyfriend was supposed to stop by," there's just no reasoning with that. Then again, employees in this case were high school aged or early college, and them suing us wasn't really an option. I would guess you are right that today any number of people would sue over cultural, religious, disability or other grounds.

rachylou

Veteran

Echo... That reminds me of this one girl who came thru the bakery. Her job was to catch bread when it came out of the shaper. She’s standing there talking on her phone to her boyfriend and all the bread is piling on top of each other into a big ball of dough. Then she pauses her yakking for a moment to say... the bread machine is broken... ahahaha!

I’m just sayin’... some people really just shouldn’t be allowed out at all...

smittie

Veteran

I don’t know why every author wants to pin everything on millennials. I can see why “ok, boomer” is taking off

Anyway, I don’t feel one way or the other about dress codes.

I do like my high tech environment, where people really don’t judge you at all based on what you’re wearing.

Cee

Veteran

If you have to explain to someone why wearing a bandaid as a skirt or a shirt that looks like a bikini top is not appropriate for the office or workplace in general, then they should probably look elsewhere for a living.

Staysfit

Veteran

I am reading many valid points and do not think they conflict with one another. I do not see this as an either/or situation. I see a continuum. Some places may still require dress codes and some may not and some may be able to relax some of their their previous policies. There are both written and implied (unwritten) dress codes. There are people capable of discerning proper dress etiquette from the company culture and those who cannot. There are too many variables such as weather, culture, setting and type of work for us to be able to make a global statement about dress codes. Among other factors, safety, decorum, distraction and discrimination plays a role in dress codes and they differ from one place to the next. A school building is different than a bakery; Both of these are different than a medical office or a court.

abby

What Gaylene said! Where I grew up, we were taught that we were professionals. As such, we should dress like we respect our customers. They expect us to serve them competently. That included dressing the part.

I now am a college professor. I dress well. Students have commented on that. I tell them that they are paying for the education. My opinion is that their professor should look like he takes their investment seriously. For many, that response combined with a consistent example is a big step in growing up and realizing the value of what I am serving them.

kkards

Veteran

As a manager I both love and hate the idea of no dress code. Yay, I get to wear what I what when I want. But as a manager, I see all kinds of land minds. Is it appropriate to wear a tee or hat with a political slogan? What if I think it isn’t, but another manager thinks it is? Are shorts appropriate? Well, why wouldn’t they be, and then if it’s appropriate to wear shorts, is it appropriate to wear short shorts? if I say sure whatever as long as your getting the job done, but my peer in the next department deems that shorts are ok, as long as the come to the knee....yes, often dress codes are odious, but Good ones help provide guard rails for managers and provide some level setting with in organizations

Zaeobi

(website)

Veteran

As a third culture Millennial, I'd like to offer a slightly different perspective:

I see a few people here commenting that people should simply 'know' what is & isn't appropriate to wear in certain situations. But exactly how do you gain this 'common sense' in the first place? In @rachylou's example, her father's notion to wear his 'Sunday best' had to come from somewhere - likely authority figures, like his pastor, parents or teachers.

The thing is, with the world becoming more multicultural & accepting of nontraditional backgrounds, we cannot assume these things anymore. For example, I repeatedly see American wedding advice that only the bride should wear white. But in the UK, it's not uncommon to see bridesmaids intentionally decked out in white! Most Americans I mention this to are already well aware of the origin of this tradition, so how could they end up with a completely opposite interpretation of the resulting dress code?

Which brings me back to Millennials - it seems we cannot trust these previously reputable sources of common sense to be up-to-date. So where should we Millennials (being blamed for the death of the dress code) go for advice? The Internet has its caveats (not YLF, ofc ).

I agree that banning individual items usually isn't as effective as general guidelines, but you can still give a range of examples that embody the spirit, right? Communication is critical - @Gaylene's experiences are not examples of insubordination but of people feeling like they're not being listened to. If they feel like they can't come to you with questions or suggestions about any of your rules, that's when you start to get dissenters.

TL;DR I see 'killing the dress code' as a response to dress codes that are unable (or unwilling) to change with the intersectionality of these times, rather than a jab at having rules at all.

slim cat

Veteran

One piece of dress code I want to die - is "dressy" shoes concept.
There is no comfortable dressy shoes with mid or high heel for me ( and many other ladies ).
Flats are bad fit for me too.
Everyone is wearing sporty shoes now but it's not allowed in many places - like high end stores with strict dress code which is my last work place. You can't wear anything with white sole and laces even if it looks great, fun and balanced with black jacket and pants. You can wear some white sole shoes without the laces even if it's chunky, super casual and looks weird with skinny pants. The whole look is outdated for me but shoes are the biggest disappointment. Plus many styles of casual, comfortable, stylish shoes aren't in B&M stores but on-line only.
I'm venting now because that has been my biggest problem with shoe shopping for years. Hit and miss, order and return, try and be left with pain and blisters and such..

Anonymous

Agreeing with Zaeobi about the possible failure rate of the "people should know" concept and while I had thought of this from a social exposure point of view I hadn't thought of the cultural differences she expressed in such a lovely way.

Also liked the positivity of this;

"I agree that banning individual items usually isn't as effective as general guidelines, but you can still give a range of examples that embody the spirit, right?"

Jenni NZ

Veteran

I agree that Zaeobi has an excellent take on it. And I don’t think millennials were being “blamed”. I am a late Boomer and I agree with the millennials if they want to somewhat relax the code. ( not sure the article was clear about that).
One thing I noticed in Vietnam and Singapore last year, was how many of the female flight attendants seemed to all wear black hosiery and little black pumps. I dislike wearing hosiery myself as I find it tight around my middle, plus it looked really hot ( temperature wise) and the pumps didn’t look comfortable. I hope for their sake things may change.

Zaeobi

(website)

Veteran

Thanks @phoebe - I actually took a lot out of my rant/ comment because it was getting fairly long lol, but my original point was that things often can't change unless we people know we're dissatisfied to begin with. I grew up as the daughter of immigrant parents, surrounded by a way of life completely at odds with my parents' guidelines on dress code etc. I remember I had to fight for my right to continue wearing PE trousers & long sleeved shirts in the summer, because our school enforced the very traditionally British 'shirt sleeve order' annual memo from the headmaster, that went from mandating blazers to dictating when summer uniform had to be worn. I'm sure if I had never said anything, the path wouldn't have been paved for future amendments to be made (like school-issued hijabs).

Oh @Jenni NZ I was just playing along with smittie's 'Ok Boomer' assertion Hopefully now more Millennials are entering higher positions in the workforce, there can be true dialogue about how forcing things like traditional gender values can affect cabin crew uniforms - I have a British Airways friend who is no longer required to wear makeup inflight but can if she wishes. An example of choice VS forced options.

Zaeobi

(website)

Veteran

@slim cat I get what you're saying about dressy shoes but one way around that is to wear trainers that are all one colour (including the sole) with the laces tucked in

I agree the 'white sole' rule is fairly arbitrary, though I wonder whether they decided to zone in on something like that so the bouncers (or whoever is enforcing the dress code) don't have to have an eye for fashion (or even taste) when screening people for entry

Gaylene

Veteran

As a Boomer who taught Millennials, I actually thought most of them had a great deal of "common sense". What I really liked was their willingness to question what so many of us in the older group just took for granted. Being forced to defend the irrational is a good wake-up call.

Jane

Veteran

Where I work is very formal; tights in the summer, heels being pretty much required. All of which is fine - I was sent the dress code when I signed the contract. I keep my heels for the office, and I love my working wardrobe which goes with my heels.

But now I think the office dress code will change after this period.

My 'dream job' has a dress down dress code and I would be able to have a capsule of jeans, trainers and blazers. Just saying for the record. But strangely, I haven't worn jeans for this WFH period.

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