Jeans 101

Nicole

OK I'm just brimming with jean questions....

First of all...can someone please tell me the premise behind "Not Your Daughter' s Jean" brand? I can't get past the name. Someone must have got a big fat F in marketing! All I can think of is that SNL skit with the "mommy jeans" and big ole butts.

Second of all...I'm embarrassed to admit that I know very little about high end denim. I was floored when this forum opened up and people talked about buying $200 jeans like nothing. I forced myself to spend $50 on a pair of Tahari Trouser jeans at Marshalls, which I loved, but are now too big. I don't see $200 jeans in any of the stores in my town. I don't think anyone would buy them--The Gap is high end in my neck of the woods. So, where does one go to try on a multitude of high end jeans?

Thirdly...(is that even a word?)....What are the differences between brands like J Brand, 7 for All Mankind (and is that the same as Seven jeans?), Diesel, Rich and Skinny (and I have an issue with that name too--they really are excluding A LOT of women by calling themselves that).

And how long can I expect a pair of $200 jeans to last? And what is up with the back pockets?? Do some jeans have identifying stitching (like CK) on the back pocket? Or does the stitching vary from style to style with in the same brand? And do all these high end brands have European sizing--even if they are not European jeans? And how do I know what size I would be? Does it go by waist size?

I'm really ignorant when it comes to this...so any basic information you can pass along will be much appreciated.

16 years ago

General

33 replies

Latest reply was from abc

Nicole

Veteran

ooops sorry I had a bit too much coffee this afternoon....

16 years ago

Becky

Veteran

Lots of good questions, Nicole. I'm looking forward to hearing the answers myself. I think Shiny talked about some retailer that dealt in nothing but jeans...can't remember the name. Large department stores like Nordstrom also have a big denim section with lots of different brands of jeans. I think the sizing goes by waist size (although this should be considered a rough estimate, as most jeans fall below the waist).

16 years ago

Tanya

Veteran

A someone who owns 17 ( Angie, I got rid of four pairs!) pairs of jeans, I feel somewhat qualified to partly answer this question

First, while I have no personal experience with "Not Your Daughter's Jeans", I believe that they have some kind of special panel construction in the front acting like a shaper and flattening the tummy.

Now on to premium jeans. In the Boston area, you can find them at Nordstrom, Saks, Neiman Marcus and other higher end department stores; then in plenty of boutiques, especially the ones on Newberry Street (e.g. Intermix) and then there are a couple of special jeans boutiques - Shiny mention National Jean Company and I've heard of Injeanios. You can also find them at discount places such as Filene's Basement, Marshall's (sometimes) and T J Maxx stores that have so-called 'Runway" section. I tend to buy mine at such places or online sales. I have not paid full price for any of my 17 pairs ( I'm in grad school!).

Now onto brands. Seven for All Mankind (SFAMK) is what people call "granddaddy" of premium denim, they were the first on the market and created a bum. They are different from a junior's brand called Seven, although people get lazy and call SFAMK just Seven, which sometimes creates confusion. After some time some of their designers left and started a new brand called " Citizens of Humanity" and than later all the other brands came. There is always a particularly popular brand, few years ago it was True Religion, then Roch&Republic, then J Brand ( when skinnies first became popular), now Rich & Skinny and so on. Btw, on the name of Rich & Skinny, the designer says that they are supposed to make you feel R&S, not that you need to be R&S to wear them.

The pockets: most of designers like to be recognizable, hence specific pocket stitching. The exception is J Brand, which always has super plain pockets (on purpose) without any details and logos.

The sizing: they go by waist size, 26,27,28 and so on ( it's your lower waist, not your natural waist). The sizing is very inconsistent from brand to brand, than within different models of the same brand, and even between different washes of the same model of the same brand! So you always have to try them on.

Are they worth it? In my opinion ( and it is only my opinion) yes. The denim is nicer, they fit better, and at least for me, once I've tried them I could never go back. I am currently working on substituting my remaining non-premium pairs (trouser & skinny) with premium.

I have probably forgotten something but please feel free to ask, I just need a break from typing right now!

16 years ago

Ana

(website)

Veteran

Wow, thanks for asking these great questions, Nicole! I've wondered a lot of them myself (especially the Sevens/Seven for All Mankind/Citizens of Humanity question).

Tanya, thanks for the fantastic response!

Nicole, whenever I buy something that is very expensive, I like to think about how often I would wear the item. Then I take the price, divide it by the number of wears, and get a price per wear. I usually buy the item based on the price per wear, rather than the sticker price. Say you find a pair of jeans that you LOVE and they are your go to jeans. The only thing is, they cost $200. But you buy them because they are amazing and you love them, and you wear those jeans twice a week for a year. $200/(52*2) = approx. $1.92 per wear. In my opinion, that's not bad for something that makes you feel wonderful. Say you take super good care of the jeans and wash them on cold with Woolite Dark and air dry them and everything, so they last 18 months (I think that's reasonable). That's 78 weeks. $200/(78*2) = $1.28 a wear. There is also probably an "optimal" number of times that you wear the jeans, where you are getting the best "price per wear" vs. the condition of the jeans (which we'd have to quantify somehow), but I won't go into that (to avoid sounding like a crazy math person).

But anyway, does that make sense? I would think about how often you wear jeans, and think about buying one really fab pair that you love and makes you feel great, than 2 or 3 cheaper pairs that are just sort of okay. Of course what's best is if you find a pair that is awesome and they are on sale.

16 years ago

Taffy

Active Member

Being new to the premium denim scene, I thought of this analogy. Do you know the feel of 200 thread count bed sheets? And they feel fine? Then you decide to try the 600 count, and they feel fantastic? Like your sleeping in a cloud? Then you try to go back to the 200 count and they are so scratchy!
Thats how I feel right now.

16 years ago

julijuli

Active Member

This IS helpful. I have one pair of 'premium' jeans - Paige bootcut jeans and I didn't know that you should wash them on cold with woolite dark and air dry them in order to take better care of them. I do agree with Tanya and Ana that if you find a pair that is fab and you love, it's worth the extra bucks because you'll wear them a lot thus decreasing the cost per wear.

16 years ago

Tanya

Veteran

Great analogy Taffy ! That's exactly how I felt with my first premium pair too. I found it really hard to wear my other older ones at that time, hence the gradual replacement which I am almost done with.

Nicole, the typical price of these jeans at those discount places I've mentioned is ~ $100, which is still a lot, but easier to deal with than $200.

16 years ago

Dani

Veteran

Nicole, I'm new to the designer jean world as well. I used to buy all my jeans at TJ Maxx (none of which were ever PPL but I was blissfully ignorant at the time). I have owned one pair of designer (and they were only around $100) but I really loved that pair. They were actually PPL and fit very nicely.

I find that GAP jeans cover most of my basic needs and actually, the TJ Maxx jeans would have worked great if I were a little shorter. I've decided to buy designer where I feel it's most worth my buck (like the straight leg jeans, but by golly, if the GAP ones had worked, I probably would have been just as happy with them). I will probably find a designer jean boutique in my area and then scout the web for better prices (I do that with a lot of things )

I see Ana's point about cost per wear, but then I think, "yeah, but the cost per wear would have been half that if the jeans cost half the original price." But I still understand Ana's point and $1.28 a wear is reasonable. For me, personally, I will probably only buy designer jeans once in a while, and probably only on sale.

Don't know if I added anything, just my perspective I guess.

16 years ago

Ana

(website)

Veteran

It's true that the cost per wear (CPW) would be lower the lower the jean price, which is why it's great if you can find them on sale somewhere, or if a less expensive brand of jeans works for you. I'm sort of a believer in trying everything. If a less expensive brand works for you and makes you feel fab, then that's wonderful, CPW is lower. If it's a pair that costs a bit more, CPW is higher, but if you feel fab in a more expensive pair, that has to count for something too. I'm not sure if I'm making sense, hee hee.

16 years ago

Anonymous

I fully agree with what Tanya and Ana have said. I am a designer jean convert, and now, a designer jean addict. Once I tried them, I could not go back. The fit is better, the quality is better, the feel is better, etc etc. Of all my friends (who are jean-aholics like me), we all have our own favorite brand. One of my friends and I are plagued with having no butt (we are both inverted triangles) and we swear by True Religion. They don't cut the rise too long and the pockets are usually flap pockets that give you a little volume boost in that area. That said, 7FAMK and CFH just don't work for me. The butt is always saggy and while the leg is too baggy, the waistband is tight. It's all about finding your brand. Yes, usually each brand has a signature back pocket look, except for Jbrand which prides itself with having a very simple, classic jean.

I wear jeans almost everyday, and I keep my jeans for over one year, sometimes near two years, so the cost per wear is very low, as Ana said. You can ALWAYS find premium jeans on sale online so I recommend going to Nordies, trying and seeing which brand and cut works for you, and doing a search online. http://www.shopstyle.com has a great search engine that allows you to compare prices and see which sites have sales once you know what you want.

Ana, I also wash my jeans in woolite and air dry them. I NEVER dry my jeans with heat because it can weaken the elastic (the stretch).

16 years ago

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Great information Tanya. Well done. You are down to 17 blissful pairs of jeans.

Nice analogy Taffy and Ana. Sound reasoning from Dani and Lissy. Bottom line, premium jeans are 100% worth the price. I have fitted nauseatingly huge amounts of jeans on different body types. There is virtually no brand I have left un-fitted. You get what you pay for. Premium jeans are superior. Prada trench coats aren’t, but premium jeans are. They last for years, look newer for longer, fit better and make you feel fab. They don’t grow or rub off their dye. I whole heartedly encourage the investment.

By the same token, I also have non-premium jeans: Esprit and Abercrombie and Fitch. They are great, but you can’t compare the fit and quality. I’ve just purchased Marc Jacobs skinny black jeans. I have worn them two days in a row and they are outstanding. They have just been ranked right up there with my Diesels.

So first prize is to get premium jeans at a discounted price.

16 years ago

naf

Active Member

Great thread, very informative I agree with everyone that premium jeans do look and feel better and last longer. Nicole, I hope you find a pair you like.
I like to wear very dark jeans and don't like it when my jeans fade, so I always dry clean them. And they almost always hold their shape and are uniformly dark throught their lifetime in my closet.

16 years ago

christie

Active Member

I just wrote a big long comment, and it didn't appear!

16 years ago

katieck

Active Member

I have 6-7 pairs of premium denim, and I love them. I bought my first pair, 7FAM bootcuts, at Nordstrom almost 2 1/2 years ago and I never looked back. I own Citizens, Paige, Joe's, AG. I also have a pair of BR jeans that I like a lot.

I got most of them on sale. Try Smart Bargains first. Also, we haven't talked about this here (I don't think), but I subscribe to Shop It To Me, an email service that alerts you of sale items in your size. There's a massive list of brands to choose from, and you check off which brands you're interested in, and when those brands go on sale at certain stores (example: Nordstrom, Bloomie's, Macy's, Gap, JCrew, AT, ATL), you get an email. I receive emails twice a week, and that's how I found both my Joe's and my AGs for under $100 each. http://www.shopittome.com

16 years ago

Nicole

Veteran

Wow...I think this is the most informative thread I have ever read. Thank you guys so much for explaining this to me....Tanya, you're post was especially helpful. My problem is I'm cheap. I was very young when I bought my first home (23). I did not want to rent and knew the only way I could do it, was to save and watch every penny. Old habits die hard. So, here I am, almost 40...and I still save as much money as possible...for college (2 really smart kids who will go to college), for retirement (younger than older), and hopefully for a lake house to retire to. It seems like there's always something more important to put my money towards then clothes.

But you guys have convinced me to at least TRY some out. There is a boutique in my town that I never go to, because the one time I went there (pre YLF) I was flabbergasted by the prices. But I'll go again with an open mind. And when the kids are back in school, I'll make another treck to Nordstrom at the Natick Mall....and in the meantime, I'll save the money so I can buy them with a clear conscious!

16 years ago

Ana

(website)

Veteran

I love saving up for something special and then buying it. It gives me a great feeling, and I end up appreciating the item a lot. I think your habits are great, Nicole! You really can't go wrong saving up for the big things in life. You're so good and disciplined, I don't think there's any risk of you going nuts and filling your closet with expensive designer stuff. It might be nice to own a fab pair of premium jeans that you feel great in as a special treat for all your hard work and taking care of everybody. I think you deserve it.

16 years ago

Tanya

Veteran

I am glad my post helped Nicole. I hope you can get a fab pair. And there's always Filene's Basement of course. That store keeps feeding my jeans addiction

16 years ago

kinddog47

Member

If you live in a city with Neiman Marcus, Saks, or Nordstroms try their last chance stores. They are Nordstrom Rack, Neiman Marcus Last Call, and Saks Off Fifth. They have everything that the store carries only at a decent discount. Sometimes it is very picked over and sometimes you get a few great things for up to 70% off. It makes the high end denim much more affordable.

16 years ago

Maya

Veteran

I'm in your camp, Nicole. I cannot, and will not ever spend more than $100 on jeans, and they have to be pretty darn special jeans for me to fork over $100. I don't care how much money I make in the future. I just find it outrageous that one has to spend upwards of $150 just to find jeans that fit properly. I feel like someone is hanging them over my head, just out of reach, and saying "either hand over the $200 or live with ill-fitting pants forever," and I do not appreciate that. They can get away with charging so much only because they know how hard it is for women to find a good pair of jeans. Jeans are a casual item. They have no business being that expensive, no matter how much wear they get or what scientific and/or magical process they are put through.

Maybe that's why I can't find a pair that fits well, but I really do not attribute that to the price or brand. Even in premium denim, the rise is simply too low, and that is my biggest issue. A lot of my "cheap" jeans would fit beautifully if the rise was just higher. They don't grow or transfer color, and if they do it's negligible and temporary. I have 2 pairs of premium jeans (discounted) but it's sheer coincidence that they fit so well: the rise is a big higher on both of them. They are great jeans, but if they were full price, there is just no way I could justify it when considering all the other things I could be getting for $200. I just feel like I'm being ripped off. Why should I pay $200 just for a little extra fabric at the rise? It bugs me. I know I have no control over it, but it bugs me. I really feel taken advantage of.

Having said that, Tanya has never paid full retail price, and neither do a lot of people. I am willing to buy premium jeans but ONLY at a steep discount, but that still makes my life difficult because even premium denim jeans have predominantly low rises. So my fit issues are always going to be the same. I don't really believe in all the marketing stuff about how this pair of jeans will give you a butt, and these will flatten your tummy. If you already have a butt, it'll look nice, and the only reason a pair of jeans would flatten your tummy is if the rise was high enough. I don't find that to be masterful engineering, just common sense, but a lot of designers seem to disagree with me.

As for NYDJ, I agree. I would probably give them a shot if they didn't make me feel like an 80 year old woman. I know that sounds hopelessly shallow, but if someone asks me what brand my jeans are, that is not the response I want to give.

16 years ago

Anonymous

To me the premium jean makers bumped up the quality of the fit. Rather than making jeans for all hourglass figures they seem to make something for everyone.
PS I had the NYDJ and gave them away. They were terrible on me but I've heard that other people love them. They are very stretchy and have a 'tummy tuck' panel.

16 years ago

susan

Active Member

I don't know how I missed his thread, but feel compelled to comment now. I bit the bullet and bought a pair of David Kahn jeans at Nordstroms this week. They make my short, somewhat chubby legs appear thin and long.......that did it for me! I about croaked to pay $158 for them, but I hope they are worth it. Anyone have experience with that brand? I usually don't buy anything if it isn't on sale-it's just the principle of the thing!

16 years ago

Tanya

Veteran

Susan, I do not have David Kahn jeans, but Angie speaks very highly of them and some forum members have them and love them, so I think you made a great choice.

16 years ago

Nicole

Veteran

I tried on a pair of cream David Kahns today at Nordstrom. (They were on the sale rack). I found them to be too snug in the thigh. I don't have disproportionately large thighs...so I was surprised about that.

16 years ago

Laura

(website)

Veteran

Susan, I have some David Kahn jeans - looooove them. I am a petite, and miraculously they come in petite sizes so you don't have to cut 6 inches off the bottom of them, thereby losing the line of the cut. My fav is the Nikki twisted seam style with flap pockets. I might be in the market for a straight leg version soon (another $158, ouch!, but worth it).

16 years ago

susan

Active Member

Thanks for the affirmation, girls! I tried on a pair of straight legs too-the ones with the colored design on the back pocket. I really liked them too, but .....$$$$$$$$!

16 years ago

Stacey W.

Member

Hello. I actually have a pair of David Kahn jeans that I bought from a thrift store for like $5.....AND they have a David Kahn autograph on the inside. I never heard of him before so I thought nothing of it, but looking around online, he seems to be pretty high end. Could these pants be worth money??

11 years ago

catgirl

Veteran

I think NYDJ came about when ultra-low-rise was in its heyday, and the idea was that you could buy flattering jeans as a mature woman without having to deal with muffin top and all the other issues of juniors fit jeans. Could be wrong on that.

I buy a mix of denim from premium and places like the Gap or even American Eagle or F21 which fit me well. I find really good premium denim in the consignment stores, often prehemmed to my stubby length, so I don't always pay full price, and in certain brands I know my size and can get them from e-bay.

My premium jeans have all held up with good care, and have been worth the investment in terms of how they look and feel. And they have some resale value (like when I gained weight and went up a size after pregnancy). That said, I am not above cheap denim when experimenting )colors!) or if it fits fine.

11 years ago

RunnerChick

Active Member

I used to buy exclusively from the Gap at one point but I have become disappointed in the fit in more recent times. I have been experimenting with buying premium denim from the consignment store or from the Rack, both of which have worked out well for me. My favorite jeans are a pair of Joe's that fit me really well and make feel and look good. They were $80 when I bought them, but I wear them at least once a week so I feel it's justified. I do buy cheaper jeans when I am experimenting (my black Target skinnies) -- it is more hit and miss but since it's not expensive, it's a good way to take fashion risks

11 years ago

Mamavalveeta03

Veteran

What an incredibly helpful post! Even tho' not everyone agrees on the value of premium denim vs. regular, I found the discussion itself to be an education on Premium Denim. I wouldn't have switched, until I tried on a pair of Paige at my local TJ Maxx and was blown-away by the attention to detail and fit. It reallyl DOES make a difference. I am also a fan of David Kahn, AG by Adriano Goldschmied, and, yes, Not Your Daughter's Jeans (any jean that lets me take a smaller size is a win-win for me!). Thanks for the input, ladies!

11 years ago

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