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Girls being nasty to each other

ironkurtin

Veteran

My kiddo is 9, almost 10. Up until now her buddies have been very sweet to each other, but suddenly the cliques and the snarky backstabbing is beginning. I hate it. I remember those painful years with negative fondness, myself, and I'm going to do my best to make sure my kid stays kind and forces kindness from others as much as possible.

Any commiseration, words of wisdom?

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26 replies

Latest reply was from ironkurtin

Anonymous

Oh no! I never had much fun when I was younger either. Teased and made fun of for being shy. I have a lad so no wise words except I love your plan to have her stay kind and force it from others. Unfortunately some girls can be a bit mean and cliquey. If your DD is like her mum she will have a good level head on her and stay true to herself. ((hugs))

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Oh geez. Do I know that feeling. Like Diane, I was picked on a lot at that age. I was girly and bookish and nerdy and unathletic, and there were a couple of tomboy girls who used to pick on me relentlessly. One of them used to come up to me, pull my hair (which was springy curly back then) -- and I mean pull it hard -- and say, "boing boing". Another liked to mimic everything I said in a nasty way, for some reason.

Imagine my surprise a couple of years ago when the hair-puller friended me on facebook. We're cool now.

I'm really sorry your daughter is going through this. My mom made sure to listen to me vent whenever I was upset about this kind of thing. She was a shy child herself, so I think she understood well.

I think girls that age are trying to figure out their place in the world, and in the process they can sometimes act like little cretins as their insecurities surface. It's the age when kids start sizing each other up and comparing, and while some of that is inevitable, not all of it healthy. It seems to be a typical age for old friendships to get shaken up and tested, and new friendships to form in their wake. The best friend I found after my 5th grade trauma year is still my best friend to this day.

I have a feeling it is even harder today, in the age of the internet and "reality" TV. It seems that people get loads of attention for awful, nasty behavior, and it's hard to shelter kids from experiencing the trickle-down effect of that.

Hugs to your girl. She'll be fine. It is a hard age, and the teen years are still to come. Buckle up!

cade

I raised three boys, and thought I was used to the rough and tumble of boyhood until I began to work at our 4th and 5th grade school. The venom girls could spew seemed to hurt so much more than the fights boys would get into. I hope that your daughter has (or will find) a friend to whom she will feel close. Teachers are very aware of the cliques that form on the playground. Right now I can see in my mind's eye the handful of girls that caused more tears on our little campus than any of the boys. It's hard for a mother to watch, for sure.

LACeleste

Veteran

My DD in 5th grade is being tormented relentlessly. The latest? Anonymous, hate-filled notes left in her desk. Two concerned parents whose kids saw the notes and were upset tipped me off yesterday.

I am sick about it.

I am focused on solving the problem.

Kristin SF

Veteran

Sigh. No words of wisdom. Only commiseration.

I'm just getting my feet wet over here. Had my first conference with DD's kindergarten teacher (!!) this very morning, as a matter of fact. The girls are still innocent at this age, but the bossiness of one very controlling girl in particular is making DD sad and stressed. No one should be stressed at age 6. The irony is that DD is Bossy Girl's "best friend".

Have you checked in with the teacher yet? It did make me feel better to hear that the teacher is well aware of the issue already and has been working with Bossy Girl (and her parents) to modify this behavior.

Fingers crossed for all of us! Sheesh.

Kristin SF

Veteran

LACeleste, I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's situation. You sound like you're doing the right thing. Big hugs to you and to your daughter.

ironkurtin

Veteran

LACeleste, how horrible! It's so hard. I am sending love to you and your daughter.

LACeleste

Veteran

I appreciate all of your support very much. The content of the notes was very shocking (urging DD to leave the school and life because she is so hated) and were addressed Dear Ugly E_ _ _ _

It was so terrible to see her pain when I asked her about them. It makes me cry now.

Tears won't solve anything---only action. I'll loop back after meetings.

IK, I am grateful you started this thread. You have a good heart.

DonnaF

Veteran

DD went to an all girls middle school (6th - 8th grade), and we were told that the mean girl drama peaks in the 7th grade. Tough sledding ahead. Over the years, we have talked about how drama continues even into adulthood, as in the drama we have experienced in our church congregation.

I do think that schools are becoming more aware of bullying these days, but I remember DD saying that in 2nd/3rd grade, a lot was happening outside the watchful eyes of teachers/staff. And LACeleste, it sounds like those other kids in your daughter's class and their parents are great allies.

I have heard a bit about Restorative Justice and would like to learn more. Maybe an answer to bad behavior?

Thistle

Veteran

I have nothing to add as DD is 2. But I am trying to take it all in.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Oh, La Celeste -- a big hug to you and to your daughter. That sounds horrendous. No child should have to deal with that. So, so unkind.

I was the victim of stuff like this in childhood. My daughter, in turn, went through much of the same, culminating last year in a slightly different situation where she was excluded and shunned in a very obvious way by her former best friend. This time it wasn't outright bullying, but it hurt even more (if that's possible). Note, I'm not kidding myself that my child has no role in all of this -- she can be difficult to get along with at times. But she's the soul of loyalty, and also incredibly open and transparent. She could never do something like this herself. Just not in her character.

IK, I certainly commiserate. It's so tough to watch, upsetting to think our children might be involved (on either side of the fence) and also worrying, considering the number of suicides tied to mistreatment by classmates.

I have no answers. I do think it helps to let our kids know we will listen -- to share our own experience, when appropriate -- and also to model the behaviours we'd like to see them show. To give them sympathy and a bit of fun if they're on the "outs" with their peers and feeling lonely. To help them find activities they love where friendships might be based more on those shared interests than on the happenstance of proximity. To help them distribute their eggs in different baskets, I guess. I've always felt that if my kid could have at least one friend in school and one friend out of school, that would help buffer her. Sometimes she hasn't had that -- but she understands the principle and the reason behind it.

Glory

Veteran

This just breaks my heart. So many children go through this. My son went through this for 4 years (grades 5- 8). It improved tons in high school. Boys do it to - they are just doing it in a different way - more upfront, exclusions and very very street smart.
I have had this also with one of my daughters. I had a tough time just to listen and not try to solve the things she didn't want me to solve. I have told her that I could only promise no intervention if the circumstances warranted. We could decide , mostly, together what needed to be acted on.
I did read Queen Bees and Wannabees with her and it was quite excellent for understanding some of these dynamics. It also helped her to find some strategies.
9 is pretty young and it saddens me.
LA Celeste - threatening notes I feel must result in immediate school action. Honestly I think they need to bring in community police for that one.

Kristin SF

Veteran

LACeleste - you're probably already planning to do this, but get everything in writing. When you meet with administrators, inform them in writing about each and every event, include all documentation, and follow up with minutes of your meetings to document their promised actions. Also include the word bullying. Once things are in writing, I feel that school administrators might be more inclined to actually follow up. Best of luck, we are thinking of you and your daughter.

Hil

(website)

Veteran

IK - Just commiserations here! My 8 year old is just constantly going through stiuff like this. Loads of bitchiness and wanting to be the Queen Bee. And as much as I adore my daughter, and she is a sweetheart, I wonder if she doesn't exacerbate the situation.

And LACeleste - ughh.... what a horrible thing to be going through! Hugs for you and your DD!

Ginkgo

Veteran

I have no children but my niece was suddenly shunned by her best friend and then mocked through the rest of high school, a painful experience still 15 years later. Good luck to you both.

April

Veteran

If your daughter's school has a social worker, they often help with friendship issues at the elementary level. (In elementary schools, it's also sometimes a guidance counselor who serves in this role. Most elementary schools have one or the other, usually not both.) Just making that person aware that there's a problem can be helpful.

Pretty much every school has anti-bullying initiatives now, and they are generally the responsibility of the counselor/social worker, who therefore tends to be highly interested in fostering a positive school climate and working with the kids on kindness, tolerance, compassion, etc.

viva

Veteran

I have two daughters, now grown.
The elder spent her middle school years having lunch with the school nurse because she felt safe there. I never intervened because she was happy with the situation and the nurse did not mind. Nurses and guidance counselors can be extremely sympathetic and helpful, and I really believe this peaceful respite from the turbulent social scene did more good than my involvement ever could have. That's not to say I didn't talk to her about it -- I did -- but there wasn't much that I could do to make her feel more comfortable with kids who just found ways to poke fun or make her feel left out.
The younger daughter spent much of her childhood figuring out how to channel her passionate personality -- she has always jumped first and asked questions later. I remember teaching her, in first grade, that "the silent treatment" -- which she had picked up from a "friend" -- was an unacceptable way to treat anyone, at any time.
So in a way, I've experienced this from both sides. My advice would just be what everyone else has said: stay involved, do your best to know what is going on, listen, be there, and intervene if you have to. Girls can be very tough on other girls. But they do grow up. My passionate more challenging girl is now an 18-year-old on a mission to rid the world of poverty and injustice. You just never know.

Eliza

Veteran

IK- Our D is in her mid-twenties, though I remember when this stuff made its way into the classroom and other activities. With the perspective of distance, I would say you are on the right track with being aware of it, chatting about things that come up with your daughter and listening to her observations.

Some of what goes on is in the context of developmental stuff to be mastered, but some is just plain mean. And part of how the "mean girls" get power is that the other ones believe them to have it. I liked to ask my kids questions that that might eventually lead them to the conclusion that the cool kids or bullies have their struggles and bad days too, while acknowledging that how we treat each other matters. Sometimes role playing specific situations that have occurred and are likely to recur helps.

You know your D well. This will be your guide for where she might be most vulnerable, which friends are most likely to be a good fit and what strategies will help her gain the skills and self-confidence necessary for weathering this phase. I remember a fair amount of discussion going on here.

LaCeleste- very sorry for what your daughter experienced and what you are all going through with it. I hope that your meetings are productive and that the content of that note is taken seriously.

This is some of the hardest stuff. I feel for everyone in the trenches.

carter

Veteran

I think you're exactly right about making sure your daughter stays kind. I believe this was probably the biggest factor in my daughter's ability to avoid being a target in middle and high school. When she first saw this behavior start with others (at her all-girl school), she made a point of interjecting herself in the situation with a non-sequitor sincere compliment to the targeted girl. Maybe something like,"Oh Mary, I was looking for you after school yesterday. Those shoes you had on were so awesome. Where'd you get them?" Usually it worked to derail the previous confrontation. However, it also made it hard for anyone to make her a target because she had sincerely complimented most everyone.

catgirl

Veteran

I hate this crap so much. My son had a friend in preschool who was tormented by little mean girls ("You can't play with us - you're too fat") until her parents pulled her out. This was PRESCHOOL. I don't know where it comes from - it can't all be learned from mom or surroundings.

I find boys to be so much simpler and boneheaded at this age - they just punch each other and move on. They also compartmentalize more. For example, my son might be mad at someone but he will still play basketball with him.

It hurts me as a die-hard old school feminist who had a superlative experience at an all-women's college and is surrounded by incredible female friends. I don't like to hear women talk about other women being catty or back-biting or what have you. And I never believed there was a real difference between boys and girls, only in what they were told about how to be.

And yet, I see and hear about this kind of horrible behavior from girls all the time.

My brother once made a good observation when we were discussing female circumcision and why mothers do it to their daughters: he said men may make the social rules but women enforce them. There is something to that, even in grade school, and it bothers me immensely.

And LACeleste, I have no words. Please do everything you can to make the school and those girls accountable.

rachylou

Veteran

Children are cruel little animals, to be blunt. Sometimes I wonder about people who insist otherwise. My dd, somewhat regrettably, was a fighter. She wouldn't take it, and she wouldn't let anyone dish it to her friends. Big mouth, landed in the principal's more than once. Teaching her to handle situations without making it bad for herself and being a punk about it all, was our challenge. She really hasn't totally mastered it yet at 21.

Tough with young children who are also more shy and sensitive. A child gets respect from her peers when she knows who she is and is it absolutely, joyfully, and even resolutely if needs be. She gets protection when she learns to form alliances and doesn't worry about what other people are doing.

One thing I can think of - at 10, this is the time to recognise if you are an extrovert or an introvert, a big clique or small clique person, arty or sporty or techy or whatever. You have to start pursuing your happiness. You have to recognise you won't be happy in a big clique if you are small clique, and there's nothing wrong with that. And vice versa.

rae

(website)

Veteran

Ugh, I remember that age. Worse than middle school or high school for me - the girls were all nastiest and talked the most smack from age 8-11. I got in fights, both verbal and physical, and spent my share of time in the office.

I was devastated at the time, but I think what made things better for me was ending a friendship with one particular girl and thus the rest of the crowd she hung around with. Stopped hanging out in groups. Looking back I think the large groups also made it easy to dehumanize one another.

Now, this doesn't mean that everything was unicorns and fairy dust just. People spread horrible rumors about me in high school. Even my high school boyfriend's friends were not nice to me at all. But I guess in the end having a few really loyal people around helped a lot.

Deborah

Veteran

Dana, I have a boy the same age but from what I have seen boys and girls this age are quite different. And I have seen some of this behaviour you mention with some of the girls at Master 10's school. I also recall similar from when I was that age. I think as long as you keep an open dialogue with your daughter, and set a positive example she will do great.

Kimberley

Veteran

Like most women, I can commiserate. Girls (and women!) can be so mean to each other, there's no doubt. I have four teen daughters and have been through many teary talks with them over the years. One important lesson we always reinforce is that other people's opinions don't determine your self worth.

We encourage them to focus on the positive - the friend (or friends) who stick up for them, etc. and we try to provide opportunity for them to be together. I believe that the "group" friend situation is half the problem - the pack mentality takes over and they start picking each other off one by one.

If I have any advice, it would be to keep the communication going and don't let things be swept under the rug. No news is not always good news, I have found.

Good for you for being your daughter's advocate. You are a great mom!

LACeleste

Veteran

Hi,

So many important thoughts in this thread. Thank you. It has helped E immensely to know that so many of my "fashion friends" have gone through this. Thanks again IK for starting the conversation and thank you all who have strengthened my resolve to fix this problem and gave me practical strategies to use as I meet with school staff.

Our school started anti-bullying programs last year and distributed anti-bullying books to all families. Kids and parents were required to attend workshops. My daughter has a few good friends but there is a large gang of 5th grade mean girls who enjoy tormenting everyone.

Unfortunately children of celebrities and entertainment industry heavy weights are often not punished because of the $$$ these families contribute. Too much entitlement and too few consequences.

It makes me so sad to know 10 and 11 year-olds write anonymous notes urging classmates to kill themselves. I have to keep reminding myself that they are children themselves----and not monsters.

Kudos to all the parents who know how important it is to talk and listen. My daughter had changed since winter break. Usually joyful and chatty, she was sullen and sad. I kept thinking "Oh no--10 1/2 is so early for teen mood stuff. I thought we had more time before that kicked in." I knew something was wrong but was a bit caught up with work and FIL's cancer diagnosis. I feel remiss about not paying enough attention and urge all of you to listen to your instincts. I am so grateful for the Moms who informed me and also reported the notes to the school even though they didn't have to get involved. Character is everything.

Thanks again. I appreciate you.

ironkurtin

Veteran

LACeleste, I am horrified that some parents' children are allowed to be hideous because their parents give the school money. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised but I think that is SO wrong.

I hope your daughter knows we are all rooting for her, and that those nasty notes come from the ugliness in other people, not because she deserves them.