Double post, sorry

Sal, that’s really well put, in some places your best is a newish pair of jeans and your best boots.

I love what you’ve said, cjh, and especially your ponderings at the end of your post. What you would wear for “cocktail attire” is exactly what I would, but I think you are right that someone in their 30s would not.
Interestingly one of our fashion magazines here did a special edition called “Occasions”, one a year for 5 years in 2010/11/12/13 and 14, but then stopped. I loved those editions and have kept them, but even in the final one they changed it from the sections “Formal”, “Cocktail”, “Wedding” and “Racewear” to casualise it a bit, eg to “Film Festival”, “Baby Shower”. And then those editions stopped. Perhaps they didn’t sell well enough. Were no longer relevant? The particular editor at the time was quite a stickler for certain things- one of her comments “Sleeves please brides!”

Thank you Ledonna, a beautiful perspective. I think I was trying to suggest that earlier, that respect, kindness and love can be shown in different ways not just by how we dress.
The old habits die hard though and I will likely stick to my old beliefs on this for myself, but look not to judge others for doing it differently- or at least try to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Of course there are extenuating circumstances that will always be in play —and I don’t waste a whole lot of time judging anyone for what they wear . I’ll notice it , definitely , but a person’s grace and behaviour / manners are more of an indicator of anything thanks what they are wearing . I’m of the mind that laziness has a lot to do with it too . Now I’m annoyed at my husband and he’s not even in the room

Jenni NZ You are so kind I understand what you are saying. I just wanted to give my perspective. It is what makes the world go round. There are many many many types of love languages and dressing for the occasion I am sure are one of them. My daughter loves putting on her gowns even to the grocery stores and playgrounds. That is her love language. It is not mine but I accommodate her because that is what she loves now. I even have a couple of dressy gowns because of her. lol

I agree and was brought up to dress to show respect. My parents wanted me to wear dresses rather than pants to events and they noticed. The small rather rural town where they lived was very casual and lots of denim was worn. I had to be careful not to wear my denim skirt.
I always dress up for older people even now, and they respond. It makes me and them smile. This includes older women at organizations I belong to and church, but especially weddings and funerals.

LOL! I just came in from a walk with DH during which one of the topics of discussion was his golf capsule and what he needs for this coming season. We talked about the dress code at the club, and how ‘flexibly’ it was enforced for non-members who pay green fees for a day here or there. There has been a rash of beer logo t-shirts on male day-players, and a kerfuffle over women’s attire - halter tops and leggings vs golf shirts and skirts, pants, or shorts. The club management is trying to find a balance between the traditional formality that is a part of the game, and welcoming new players who might not understand the social aspects of golf.

High five, Ledonna! Your observations are spot-on. Fashintern, your approach to apologies is word for word how my mother raised me. A forced apology is no apology at all.

I've gotten pretty good at not judging based on appearances. Working in schools has taught me that, like nemosmom says, you never know the whole story, so you accept people (children especially) as they are, no matter what. My DS's best friend came to the kindergarten Christmas concert wearing her favorite pajamas because the teachers had encouraged students to choose "a special outfit" -- and it was the dearest thing! I suspect Mom was nervous and/or embarrassed, but her child was proud and happy.

I do give children (and hence their parents) an extra pass because I know I'd rather deal with comfortable, calm, happy children in any situation than with uncomfortable, fidgety, whiny ones. The term "sensory issues" gets bandied about a lot these days, and I do think there's some merit to it. I really don't think it's worth the trouble to fight with a child who can't bear the feeling of stiff shoes or a zip fly on their pants, or a child who doesn't feel right in a dress. This is definitely a big change from a few decades ago, but, you know, we also used to generally consider corporal punishment for children acceptable, and most people's thinking has changed on that one.

The only time my mother asked me to change my outfit was the inverse situation. Getting ready for a distant relative's wedding as a teenager, she advised me to choose a different dress so as not to "upstage the bride." Mine wasn't a white dress, or a particularly flashy or revealing one, but it would have been too much for the event. It was a low-key ceremony, second marriage for both bride and groom; my mother understood the context better than I did, so she asked me to tone it down. Ever since, I've been mindful of not outdoing the host/hostess. It's easy to overdress in my family and look like you're putting on airs, so to speak.

I have been following this thread closely.
I strive to dress for the occasion as I see fit. Like many of you, I was brought up to wear more formal wear at the formal events (church, dinner at Nana’s). In casual situations, I was taught to wear clothes that were modest and did not make others uncomfortable. I think that was the point. To make others feel comfortable and not attract too much attention. It’s interesting that when I started as a visiting nurse and then working as a provider in a primary care practice, I took care to wear clothes that were neat, professional, but not too formal. It was important to me to look nice for the patients but approachable.
Last point, when I work with the people in our Guatemala clinic, the patients dress in their best, especially the older ones. I appreciate their efforts and often compliment them on their fashion!
They have told me it was important to them to respect our meeting and dressing up reflected that.

I'm nodding along with Sal, Suz, Mary, Jenn, Ledonna and Helena.

Jenni, I think there are many factors at play, which have come through in the comments already. Lots of interesting thoughts!

Generational differences, cultural differences, context, and a world that is more casual than it ever was makes its impact. It was cultural for my Euro Dad and Eurasian Mother to dress up for occasions, and expect their kids to do the same. Their family members had the same set of dressy and "respectful" values. You even dressed up to fly on a plane back in the day.

Conversely, my husband's South African family is very, very casual because its part of the culture. You could have Christmas lunch in shorts, tee and flip flops. But in my home with my parents, it was your Sunday best. I don't think my South African family is being disrespectful. The dress code thing is simply not on their radar. They are happy to see me dressed up because they don't know me any other way. And everybody is very accepting and non-judgmental - for lack of a better way of describing it.

My 85 year old Dutch Aunt will turn her nose up at my fashion sneakers when I visit for tea and cake in the Netherlands. And I am a dressy person wearing immaculate white sneakers! I know better now, NOT to wear sneakers when I visit

At my Mother's funeral in Cape Town 21 years ago - all dress codes and colours were represented. Formal suits and dresses, jeans, and shorts and t-shirts. Some people's very best was a new pair of jeans and lace-up shoes, whereas others just didn't care and rocked up in whatever. The former is respectful despite the lack of formal attire because they made the effort, and looked clean, neat and presentable.

Times are changing, and my own dress codes have relaxed over the years too. Hubs Greg is much more casual than me, and likes that I dress up! He says that as long as I dress up, he gets away with looking more casual

I agree with most. I tend to dress up, as mum was a teacher and wore skirts and heels to school everyday. My dad always wore a jacket for a nice occasion and even wore hats (which he, of course, always removed indoors).

But I teach in a community with a lot of poverty. Our new music teacher was shocked to learn she could not require students to wear black pants or skirt, black shoes and a white shirt for concerts because most students don't have them. People here genuinely care about their friends and neighbors, but they cannot show that through the way they dress.

What I don't understand is going to $100 a plate restaurants in a nearby resort town and seeing people wearing jeans. You can't tell me THOSE people don't have anything nicer!

High five to Madeline- as a primary care provider also I have consciously tried to dress so I look smart but approachable for my suburban clients in a mixed (from very well off to rather poor in state or council housing in the catchment) socioeconomic area. Many of the clients are suburban mothers who don’t wear business type clothing when caring for their young children, and many are retired. So I never wanted to look like a business person’s provider.

Great conversation. Love rear everyone’s diverse thoughts

Oh wow, I LOVE the idea of dressing up as a love language. Thank you for introducing that idea, Ledonna. That really seems like a useful framing in an era when dress codes are becoming looser overall— some people may dress up more than others because it is a way they express love (or respect), while others may have others ways they express love. Etc.

Fantastic thread and many interesting perspectives. I am nodding with Angie regarding the cultural factor. In Israel there is no such thing as dressing up as a sign of respect. I have been to enough weddings and funerals here to say there is no correlation between the emotion, respect and what people wear - which is very casual in each event. No suits whatsoever.
On the other hand, when we visit my MIL in a very orthodox Jewish part of Brooklyn, she requests that me and my daughters wear skirts, that I cover my hair and that my son and husband (her son) don't wear shorts and do wear head covering. We do and this is explicitly as a sign of respect.
So nodding along with the cultural, generational and contextual aspect of the whole thing.

Jenni, what an interesting discussion.

For me, dressing respectfully means that I would not want my clothing to cause discomfort to another. Where this upsets me most is when travelling overseas and I see the horror of tourists wearing minimal clothing in a culture where dressing modestly by the locals is the norm. If you have the money to travel, you have money to buy a t-shirt and a sarong to keep you cool and covered (just saying).

Bijou, I’m with you 100% on that! Europe has gotten more casual since the last time I lived here, but people still don’t run their errands in their workout clothes. Athliesure and sweats designed for casual daywear, yes. Things they actually sweat in, no. So I don’t either. I’ll even take it a bit further; I remember being terribly embarrassed strolling the Boulevard Unter den Linden, with its glamorous Opera House, Cathedral, University, etc. It was a lovely day, so there were lots of people out. Stopping at each cross street and waiting for the lights, we formed into natural groups. Except there was one couple who blithely ignored every single light, simply wandering across the streets as they wished. They walked more slowly than most, so they lagged behind, but then not waiting for lights put them ahead again, so they basically kept pace with us. They were a well-dressed elderly couple, evidently American. I was embarrassed. When we our abroad, we represent our countries.

It’s evening now and I am back to this. How much do people think religion has to do with the “respect” dressing idea? I wonder because it has been mentioned by several of you and applying in Protestantism, Catholicism, and Judaism. Religion definitely was part of the concept for me- brought up Scottish Presbyterian. I was told, you would dress up to see the Queen ( who has been NZ’s official head of state my entire life) therefore you should dress up to go and worship God. However, since I was also taught that God was omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent, I figured that if God could see me any time, in my pyjamas or whatever, then it wouldn’t matter if I wore my jeans to evening church! Mum’s arguments were not consistent!
I am no longer a practising Christian, more of an ex-Christian. And I now show respect in the same way to real people as I was once asked to do to God. I know for sure that my 90 year old FIL exists, and I wanted him to see by my dressing up that I respect him.
But I feel for me the religious angle is partly why I think that way.
Does anyone else think so?

Jenni, I’ve broken with religion as well. When I’m in a place where people dress a certain way according to the precepts of a certain religion, I do so as well. This isn’t out of respect for a god I don’t believe in, but out of respect for the people. Similarly, I don’t believe in life after death, or that a corpse has any spiritual qualities but I know they matter to other people, so I want graveyards of all kinds to be respected and not destroyed in construction projects. It’s respect and compassion for others’ beliefs, not agreement with those beliefs.

On special occasions, otoh—weddings, graduations, birthdays—I think the point is to take part in someone else’s celebration. The bride and groom, graduate, birthday kid, or whoever can wear whatever they like. I certainly can’t imagine telling someone how to dress on their big day. Brides need sleeves? Graduates can’t wear Hawaiian shirts? Neither one makes sense to me. If they have a preference, whether they want a glitz and glam party or a simple shindig where everyone is comfy, I think it makes good sense for me to do my best to be part of that. But I still think it’s overreaching my role to tell someone else how to dress, and especially the person at the center of the event.

I relate to the Guatemalan patients. My grandpa would wear a suit to the doctors office. I was born in the US so of course thought that was overkill, but guessing now it was being respectful for him.

I've always erred on the side of dressy. At the least it says you value yourself and care to make a good impression. It doesn't have to cost much. You can buy a dress on consignment for the same price as a pair of jeans. And often they are more comfortable! Casual clothes to church, a wedding, or anything like that- no way.

When I did human services I had a client that refused to dress up for an interview. She said "teachers who dress up are snobby." So...she went in her jeans and grubby sneakers, and of course didn't get the job. Hope she likes being unemployed, or minimum wage at best...

Jenni I think there’s a cultural correlation in how people were raised. If one’s parents had already rejected or at least questioned their religious upbringing they probably also questioned authority and conventional society and maybe gender ‘rules’ as well (this applies to me and my mother also skipped manners, which I don’t appreciate!).
Dressing up for church would also mean one had at least one appropriate outfit in their closet, which isn’t true for many today. I posted recently about how I only have a ‘casual’ winter coat (a puffer) these days; I don’t feel I need a wool ‘dress coat’ the way I did 20 years ago when puffers were gear for snow days only. I believe I made mention that the only scenario I might feel uncomfortable in would be a funeral, but I suspected nobody in my circles would care these days. I realized later that it’s not just dress coats that have gone out of style, it’s funerals themselves. My community is not religious for the most part and many of my peers are forgoing formal services for their parents, even pre COVID. I see more formal religious families outside local churches and they still have black clothes for those sad occasions but it’s just not part of my life. So if I were called to attend something like that I would just not have the most ‘appropriate’ clothing at the ready.

Wow, Rachy---I didn't know "the thing about waiting for the hostess to start eating... was déclassé..." I am embarrased to hear that and a bit sad, too!:-(
I was raised (and I raised my own DD alike, too) always do like that, wait for the hostess &/or the eldest woman in the crowd to start eating+++to serve/listen the eldest/most important woman first.

Well now, I wonder about the religion factor. I’m Catholic, baptised by the same priest as my father was - but it’s probably worth a mention my mother was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran. In any case, we certainly dressed for church, but again ‘respect’ is not something I recall. Obedience, humility, custom, perhaps, but not respect per se. Clearly people are told this though. One thing that really makes me wonder, is Catholics have daily mass. Sunday is the obligation, but daily is on offer. I used to go daily when I was made of time. If you go to daily mass, you do not dress up. You cover your shoulders, and in the old days your hair, and run in. There’s no pancake breakfast. The nuns are there in the same polyester dresses they were just doing the washing up in. The priest gets you in and out in a half hour, lol. There is in my mind thus a rather non-religious aspect to the mandate of dressing up for church. We think of going every Sunday as being religious, but it is and isn’t.

Then about the dressing. I think it's all about the context-or at least IT really SHOULD be. I was also raised to show respect with clothing- but having eyes wild open I also aknowledgde the fine casualisation on all levels and was flexible enough to change my old beliefs of dressing for beeing more approachable.
Respecting venues (like church-or other events) is a must- and NOT outdoing the bride is crucial as it also is to dress up appropiatelly even if I host. Appropiately to me means dressing for the context, the venue, the occasion& the people who attend -so is really a love language- and is a requirement I mostly imposed it my own self-because that is the way for me feeling fabulous. It sometimes was hard thing to figure out but easier to nail it as I grow older.
Like Carla "I believe most folks try their best" but I have seen "some folks who like to flaunt the rules and push boundaries"-which I am also OK with....BUT some do it when really it is NOT that appropiate.

Haha Rachy, good point about daily mass. Maybe Sunday dress up isn't about respect. I know in my mind, if I go to Saturday night mass instead of Sunday morning, it's OK to wear jeans ("nice" jeans though- ). This thread has given me a lot of food for thought. I try not to be a judgmental person but I remember a wedding where a bunch of cousins wore jeans and the rest of us were in our nice wedding dresses and suits. I was quite shocked and appalled. That being said, I prefer not to be overdressed so might sometimes verge on the too casual end. It isn't a lack of respect, I always try to dress appropriately for the occasion. But back to the Catholic thing, my kids went to Catholic schools and wore uniforms. I loved it and I think part of the reason was it seemed more respectful than jeans and tees. And it was easier for me

Ah, well, lyn, the rules are more complicated of course than I wrote. And intentions matter. It is right to wait on and listen to your elders. The general thing behind it is to get your guests a hot meal. But if you’re invited to dine in a home where waiting is the custom, you do so because you also need to be a good guest. And that’s certainly a widespread notion, waiting. When status is really the question and you’re trying to show manners to prove something - that is, if you’re going for posh - well your posh affair needs to be small enough where everyone gets their own footman or large enough where it’s not even a question. Otherwise, just be genuine and caring. That’s really the one rule behind them all... be caring. Care what you do, forgive what others do. You follow that, you have it right.

The religion question has been really eye-opening for me. As I wrote the other day, I inherited a lot of Quaker values from my mother. No one in my household or immediate family was practicing anymore by the time I was born, but the notion of plain dress and humility is apparently rooted very deep. Quakers have never had a strict dress code, but the expectation, historically, was modest cuts, unembellished and unadorned, in sturdy fabrics and neutral colours.

Quakers don't dress up for meeting. At modern meetings, you might see a few dresses and suits, but you'll see a lot of jeans. Plain dress (along with plain speech) and lack of a dress code go back to the idea of a democratized religion with no caste or hierarchy. In fact, I've had it explained to me that the reason 20th century Quakers abandoned thee/thy in their speech and modernized their dress was because those customs were becoming exclusive, when they'd originally been intended as signs of inclusivity.

So I do think I was raised with a sense that wearing certain things (most things?!) would draw attention to yourself and make it look like you thought you were better than others, and that was its own form of disrespect. I think this was particularly true because we never had a lot of money compared to other relatives, and my mother would never have wanted it to look like she was spending what money she had frivolously, trying to make her children look nicer than others'.

The transmission of (and sometimes conscious rejection of) these cultural values is fascinating... in my case there are socialist values my mother just recently figured out based on some genealogy research probably came from a group who left Latvia in the late 1800s to pursue a more collective life in Canada. I believe I am 1/8 of this purported "Latvian Socialist" stock but I know nothing of Latvian language, food or culture and would not know we had Latvian heritage if my mother hadn't told me. But I am well aware my grandfather was a lifelong Leftist and my mother very much internalized those values and passed them down.