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Dressing and cultural norms

dashielle (Ann)

(website)

Veteran

I've weighed in on how I feel on the topic of skirted leggings and ultimately that Suz is the judge of what is right for her. One thing I'm finding, reading through the various comments, is that we experience very different social/cultural norms across the forum. I have found myself reacting a bit to the use of words such as "professional" and "businesslike", "sloppy" vs "neat". As a senior managment level professional who works in a corporate environment and interacts with lots of other corporations/businesses, I can tell you that our cultural norms do not fit with what the prevailing forum thinking indicates. Almost every one of the outfits I post has gone to work, in a downtown highrise, in a large city, albeit on the West Coast where things are more laid back. I am frequently (if not always) dressed more "professionally" than most people I ride the elevator with, and by that, I mean that I don't wear torn jeans, shorts, flip flops, tank tops, camis as shirts or miniskirts with bare legs. The distinction was particularly notable when we had an older, more conservative company (Boeing) in our elevator bank, with my company below (slightly less conservative) and a newer/younger company (Zillow) below us, consisting of many tech workers skewing younger. It all just depends on too many factors to be black and white. I dress more crisply for major meetings and for interviews, neither of which occur with much frequency of late. In fact, I have to say that when we entertain (and I don't mean that in the fun way) the FDA or other government agencies, the guidance is to dress down (no bling, no flash, and definitely no suits). We recently met in Germany with a major research institution/regulatory body and we were way overdressed comparatively (esp. the guys, with jackets and ties). So, while I understand those who have a fixed idea of what they consider to be "professional", I can assure you that what goes for certain fields (law comes to mind) or other client-based professions, does not represent most tech companies in my area. Perhaps I'm living on an island though? What about you? What does your corporate culture (or policy) state about dress?

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29 replies

Latest reply was from Helenedith

trekkiegirl

Veteran

I can relate. As the office manager, I feel I need to set a certain standard, but even at that I can still dress down significantly more than I would if I were in a different field. My company is tech also. I could wear jeans, tshirt and sneakers every day if I wanted, as long as I dress it up a bit with a blazer or nice jewelry. I don't dress that way more than maybe 2-3x a month, but it's pretty standard here.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Thanks for the insights, Ann. Always informative.

Tech companies are notoriously casual. (You can go to Microsoft wearing pajama bottoms and no one will say a word or even notice). Add the fact that Seattle is part of the whole "west coast casual" vibe, and it's even more extreme.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a benchmark for what is perceived as professional dress. Other parts of the world, and other work settings, do take it more seriously. When male Microsoft employees work with OEMs in Asia, they have to wear formal clothes (trousers, shirt, jacket and sometimes a tie). You are right - cultural norms differ a great deal.

Firecracker (Sharan)

Veteran

Good points, Ann. Thanks for sharing your views, because I would have had no earthly idea what people wear in your work world! It's really interesting to hear about and to picture. (I always appreciate your writing--you have a great way of putting things and capturing the feel of things.)

I work in retail, and we have a dress code. There is no code against skirted leggings, and I have definitely worn mine to work, too! Some of the discussions about them make me a bit self conscious now about doing so, but I try to "shake it off," as Taylor Swift says.

MsMary

Veteran

I am in law and believe me, things are slipping in my profession too. I guess on the East Coast it's still suits and closed-toe pumps all the way, but here in So Cal things have relaxed quite a bit. I have generally gone from business formal to what I call business semi-formal, and today I think I'd say I'm full on business casual (tuxedo strip houndstooth pants, knit top, knit blazer). I wouldn't wear this to appear in court or for a client meeting, but for an office day nobody bats an eye. The men are still wearing suits and ties to court almost exclusively, thank goodness, but it's mostly business casual for them, too, on office days.

Edited to add: All that having been said, there is no universe in which I could ever imagine wearing skirted leggings to work! LOL

Anonymous

Funny you should mention that! I was browsing the http://www.corporette.com website yesterday and thinking how much different the dress code is for corporate America than it is for the rest of the U.S. - and how glad I am not to have to dress that way! I'm all for looking well dressed, but in my little corner of the world that does not mean spending $$$ for clothing and having to wear business suits, pantyhose and pumps. That said, I wish the average American would take the time to dress nicely. People don't even care if their clothes are ripped or if their shoes are scuffed up. It's sad. My DH and I work in education, and there doesn't seem to be a dress code other than to make sure you have clothes on. My DDs bemoan the fact that no one dresses nicely around here except for the football games, when the students dress in their finest (like going to the high school prom). Go figure!

dashielle (Ann)

(website)

Veteran

...and I should add that when I say tech, I am also including those companies involved in most of the natural sciences, especially when dealing with research institutions. The scientific community in Europe, while in my experience tends to be more fashion forward than US, is not necessarily any more "professional" in their dress for day to day, conferences, large meetings, presentations etc. aside. All of our past/present executive management wear jeans and a polo shirt/sweater/sweatshirt when they come out here to visit. Meetings with investors, press etc. calls for jacket, at a minimum. Wearing a tie or suit will set tongues to wagging about whether an individual is looking for a new job.

Sarah Kay

If you're on an island, I'm on one, too! I work at a software company in Austin, TX, and I never wear what most would consider professional dress. On days I wear a blazer with my jeans, it's not uncommon to hear a comment about how dressed up I am!

I'm one of only two women at my office, and the guys all wear jeans, tees, and sneakers most of the time.

I really enjoy the casual environment from a fashion perspective - it's a lot more freeing to be able to try out different things and to be comfortable doing it.

And to add to the leggings conversation - I'm wearing plain old leggings today, with a long tee and cardigan - not even skirted!

froggiebecky

Veteran

When I worked in the US, for an environmental consulting firm, we had a branch in the mid-Atlantic, and one in Washington, DC. It was well-known that the mid-Atlantic branch dressed down, and the DC branch dressed up. Part of it was attributible to the cities we were located in, but it also had to do with the clients. The DC clients were lawyers and congress-people. The mid-Atlantic clients were government employees and scientists in research labs. There were a handful of battles about it, but the rule the company settled on was 'meet, but do not exceed, your client'...i.e., blend in and relate to the client--dress at their level. If they're in jeans, and you're in a suit, it makes them hard to relate to you, and we weren't as good at our jobs that way.

I forgot to add: On the skirted leggings debate--those look so fab for travel. I would totally wear them, except that when I'm really prioritising comfort in my travel (long-haul flights), I usually have a layover in a Middle Eastern country, where those would not be welcome. I'll stick with my pyjama pants. (Yes, I wear pyjama pants on the plane. They expect me to sleep, and it's 27 hours of flight time. I wear jeans in the terminal.)

Marley

Veteran

I don't believe that I have a "fixed idea" of what I consider "professional." I very well know that there are different cultural norms based on type of business, geographic area, etc. When I first moved to the West Coast from the midwest, I was stunned at the difference in work attire for the 2 different locations. What I considered nightclub attire, or beach attire was being worn to work on the West Coast! Totally blew my mind! But, I eventually got used to seeing it - however, did not ever dress that way myself when going to the office. And yes, as Angie said, tech companies are known for being extremely casual, so I don't ever really think of them as an example of "professional" dressing - appropriate dressing for their work environment? Yes - but probably not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of "professional" attire - which means that perhaps I do have a "fixed idea" of what I consider "professional!" LOL!
I think it comes down to your own values and comfort level. My father wore a suit and tie to work everyday - as well as on Sundays to church - and I'm sure that that has influenced my own perceptions about how I myself dress in order to feel professional. It's different for everybody.
Also, to complicate things even further! - in my line of work, there is a huge difference between what is considered a "professional" employee and a non-professional employee - as defined by labor laws - so, throw that into the mix and you've got even another factor that can influence one's perception of professional vs. non-professional attire!
As far as the skirted leggings go - I don't think that my objection to them is that they aren't professional attire - I wear a lot of things that aren't professional attire! To me, it's more about "sophistication" vs. "girly." (I think!)

retailgirl

Veteran

I have worked in retail for a long time! In the eighties, the standard was a matching suit...usually with a skirt. In the nineties, suits were still the norm but you could get away with a jacket and skirt...probably not pants. (All of these would be for management.). Then, pantsuits were it. Now, it's a jacket and pants, maybe, but a nice sweater and pants are ok. When I worked for Macy's in the late nineties, if you wore pants, you had to wear a jacket but if you wore a skirt, a sweater was ok. Today, hardly anyone wears skirts. Or dresses. Suits are reserved for corporate visits. Although it's retail and you want to project a fashionable image, there are still guidelines that are followed.

Jeanie

Veteran

It's interesting that you are given the advice to dress down for important meetings. I think in tech there is a bit of pressure to rebel against fashion norms as if everyone is striving to be Mark Zuckerman in a hoodie and jeans. When I worked in tech everyone would ask why I was so dressed up and I was even told that my jeans were too dressy for jean Fridays. I guess every work place is different and you have to be the judge as to what is appropriate. I was surprised that Suz could wear skirted leggings in a work environment but only because most places I've worked have dress code issues with very short skirts. I imagine trying to explain to HR that skirted leggings are leggings and not a short skirt. Now that would be a fun conversation!

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Jeanie -- I would only have worn skirted leggings in a work environment because I work from home.

The specific ones I tried were too short for me to consider wearing them in any non-casual setting, and ultimately, too soft/ unstructured for me to wear at all. (It turns out, I just don't like leggings on me, whether they have a skirt or not, although a skirted version definitely has more chance of working for me, if I could find one in a fabrication I like.)

That aside....until a few weeks ago I worked for a fitness and nutritional coaching company. If I had wanted to, I could absolutely have worn some version of skirted leggings our company meetings. They would have fit right in to my own work environment. Most of my colleagues would have been wearing jeans or gear. One of our senior people actually did wear a very short skirted leggings to our meetings all the time.

To your point, Ann, I don't think I have a fixed idea of "professional" although I probably may have come across that way in my post about the dress/ vs. skirted legging. (Mea culpa!) What I really meant was that for me, personally , for my style -- that particular skirted legging turned out not to be a good fit for a professional setting. Even my super casual professional setting.

And the dress I wore -- well, I did wear it to a professional setting -- to an actual presentation, in fact! (And if we don't want to look our best for a presentation, when do we?) But I probably wouldn't have worn that particular outfit for a meeting of corporate investors, or to a funeral, or any more formal setting. My presentation was at the university. I wanted to both fit in and stand out, and that outfit hit the right note. (Even if I don't love it, LOL.)

Astrid

Veteran

I'm working in the library of an reasearch institute (mathematics and informatics) and most scientists dress more casual than me. You can see jeans, slippers, fleece shirts, trekking pants and shoes... If there's a special occasion people dress up of course, but only the ones in high positions wear suits - mostly it's a nice button down and pants instead of jeans for the rest. A lot of looks that are called "casual" on here are "dressy" in my life.

citygirldc

(website)

Veteran

I've noticed that in my conservative line of work (near a big hill...hint), professional clothing consists of mostly dresses, skirts and tops, and some blazers thrown on for the full effect (usually for big meetings.) Gone are those days of skirts suits with pantyhose and matching closed toed heels.

It's still pretty conservative and dressing "artsy" does not work well during the work day, only for play. Too bad because it can sure liven things up a bit.

Meredith

Veteran

During orientation for my job at a museum the HR director explained there was no dress code and that I could expect to see people dressed in everything from shorts to suits. The assumption was that everyone would grow to understand (through experience and input of their supervisors) what was appropriate and professional. I see this community in the same way. I think most of us have a fairly intuitive understanding of what is appropriate in our professional environments. We might raise an eyebrow when someone's choices seem foreign, but unless someone is specifically asking for work-appropriate fashion advice her choices are probably fine within the context in which she works.

For me, business casual was sufficient most days. My boss did not like jeans, but that was really the only restriction. I tried to be polished in outfits that allowed for the mobility I needed to do my job.

christieanne

Veteran

I agree with retailgirl. I have worked in major retail department stores since the mid 80's (yikes!) and back then, women could not wear trousers or slacks to work. We were allowed finally to wear business suits with pants on Fridays in 1990! That was a very conservative chain in Seattle (Frederick and Nelson) and since then I have seen dress code options change from Business attire to casual and back to Business Attire. It is really difficult to get the team to "dress up". The skirted leggings would not be work appropriate in our company. The skirt is just too short.
I think a happy medium is good - I like to see fashion forward business attire.

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

When I attend medical conferences the dress is pretty conservative. Doctors in ties, maybe not matching suits, but definitely blazers. Last conference I went to I wore I navy blazer, white button down and black pencil skirt. I did wear flats because there's always a lot of walking at conferences. I want to be taken seriously. Though one of my surgeons didn't recognize me, probably because he only sees me in scrubs.
A good friend of mine is a lawyer, however not Big Law. She's definitely does not dress as conservative as they do on the east coast. But Monday through Thursday she's in a skirt or dress, only on Friday does she wear pants, but never jeans. I don't think she has ever mentioned going to court given her specialty.
There's also a movement in Silicon Valley called Formal Friday, where they dress up.
http://www.thewire.com/enterta.....ode/60588/
Though I'm not sure it's taken hold.
Sometimes I think the prevalence of Stay-at-homes on here drowns out other discussion.

Anonymous

Ann, your post is quite interesting, and by the way, very succinct and well-written.

What you say about office dress in West Coast tech companies is no surprise (to me, anyways) as we've read for years how casual (but with intent to a certain image) it is a workplace.

I wear several hats myself because my job is so fractured in terms of who I see and what is appropriate. I work in two fields: sales in home decor, and sales in publishing. You can imagine the different looks /vibes/expectations that come from each. Layer into that the fact that as a woman and as someone older than many of the buyers I see, I find myself feeling schizophrenic in terms of who I need to "play" on any given day at work. I don't count my work at home life (yes , my office is at home) because, that's the least interesting part of me and what I wear. Being over 50, I want to de-emphasize the age difference between me and the 30 year old buyer I work with, but I don't do it b wearing jeans and Birks to a book buying appt (even though that's what the buyer is wearing). Dressing for work is a minefield, isn't it? And, this is why my closet usually looks like it houses the wardrobe of 4 people.

rachylou

Veteran

In biotech, I find the higher you go, the plainer you dress... no suits until you're testifying before congress. But there's more fashion flare than say hard high tech.

In the sciences, it's plain and preppy, a little arty sauce ok. No suits until you're in the lab president's office and you're testifying before congress.

In hard high tech, it's very plain. Fashion not welcome, but your pin collection can be fun if you're in supply chain. You see suits in corporate and marcom often enough.

In software high tech, slacker all the way.

In IT, it's sort of pressed jeans, chucks and a button down if you fix email. If you are supporting special systems, maybe you'll also wear European loafers.

In energy, it's jeans and fuzzies for the workers. Dark jeans and button downs for management. Suits for meetings.

Suburban real estate management, hospitality... still wearing suits.

Law... really all over the place in my experience. I think it depends on the kind of law office.

Millenials... no one cares what they wear. Everyone is busy trying to find ways to get them to look up from their phones. Which has failed, actually, so now they're trying to find ways to twitter their assignments to them. Hehe. I'm an honorary millenial. I'm so proud

Sal

Veteran

Thanks Dashielle. I enjoy reading about what different workplace expectations are.

On top of different workplaces we are from a variety of cultures that also provide a filter by which we see things. I saw this very recently in South America where women and men dressed quite differently to how many NZers dress. Incidentally there were things I preferred about how the Argentians dressed and some aspects of NZ clothing and fashion that I enjoy.

And I notice on the forum that there are very different views.

My workplace is flexible and I can wear whatever I like. So I do.

My other job as Chair of our School Board does not have a dress code, but I have a few rules as the school is very multicultural including a variety of religions and most continents being represented. I do not show my decolletage, nor my shoulders. I wear skirts below the knee. I am cautious about underwear peaking through. I am very conservative although I try to have a wee bit of flair.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Such an interesting discussion.

LisaP, I really identify with what you said about wanting to dress youthfully for professional purposes (as much as preference, although that also plays a huge part). But I am in a similar situation. Most if not all of the people I work with are younger than I am and I want to fit without aping.

Ditto to having a closet that looks like it could include 4 different people's clothes. With a number of different jobs and roles, I think that may be inevitable.

rachylou

Veteran

Back to add: I wear leggings and mini skirts to the bakery. I cannot imagine wearing them to the office. I'll wear jeggings to the office, but not leggings. I probably could but it would definitely look funny.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

The fine distinctions are interesting, aren't they, Rachy? And I'm sure it depends so much on the specifics and the area. But I get what you are saying. Jeggings have a structure that leggings & skirt lack.

Jeanie

Veteran

Suz, when I said I was surprised that you wore the skirted leggings to work I meant that in a 'I am not hip to what everyone is wearing to work anymore' way. I remember that you are a work at home-er like me but I thought maybe doing a presentation at the University was part of your work. I find it interesting and perplexing what people wear to work these day. In some settings a skirted legging would be fine and in others I can see HR departments getting riled up about it.

Laurie

Veteran

Great discussion. Being in sales, I get to visit many different companies all over the US, and I've been to Mexico and Brazil in the past 2 years for work as well. I sell software so my small Silicon Valley based company is very casual. The IT departments of most of the companies we visit - from healthcare to telco - are casual and mostly male. I still see suits on management level guys in financial services. Definitely in NYC. I honestly don't see many women in my line of work, and usually they are back office engineers and dressed casually - jeans, etc.
My rule is that I represent my company and I ask my customers for a lot of money at the end of the day, and I should come dressed up nicely for both of those reasons. That being said, I only own a few suits, and you have seen my work wear - ranges from sweaters and skirts, to blazers and skirts or slacks. I would never wear anything extremely casual to a client under any circumstance. My sales engineers always wear a jacket, but rarely a tie when they are doing a technical day. If they are presenting to an exec group at a bank, they'll wear a suit.
When I go to my corporate headquarters for our annual meeting, or with a client, I also dress upscale casual because I want to project the same professional look that I take outside of our company.
I will dress more casually to fly cross country, but I always want to look well put together. I believe it is true that the airline and hotel people are inclined to treat you better if you show up looking professional.
In conclusion, in my business life it's worse to be under dressed than slightly overdressed. The end.

shipskitty

Veteran

This is an interesting thread.

I work in tech (I'm an engineer who designs tests for software) but I'm also a contractor/consultant. That changes the rules for me because although the industry I am in - tech - is generally fairly laid back and casual the nature of what I do means that the organisations I work with are not necessarily technology focused themselves. So I have to adapt to their corporate culture. Sometimes I am dressing down my work clothes to fit in with more casual workplaces and other times I am hauling out my suits because a dress with a blazer won't cut it.

In general I try to err on the dressier side for similar reasons to Laurie - the client is paying good money for a service and I am representing my company and impressions count - but it is sometimes a tricky thing. You want to fit in well with the teams you are working with and not create barriers of 'perceived otherness' that make it harder for you to do what you need to do. It is a balance.

In general I feel like I manage to do this reasonably well but casual fridays are a bugbear of mine. Such a minefield. In some companies staff seem to go from suits and ties to thongs (I mean flipflops not panties for you non-aussies) distressed jeans and sneakers - this feels like a look I can't pull off and still feel professional. In other companies they mean 'business casual' rather than actual casual and have long lists of banned items. In winter causal fridays are no big deal. Jeans and booties and more casual jewellery can do it but on hot days in summer I often struggle with the Friday casual thing. If I had my choice I'd wear my workday 'uniform' every day - less thinking required.

rute

Veteran

I don't have a fixed ideia also. I have worked in so many companies that I know it is a big variable.
Also what we call Business casual or smart casual, depends not only on the company but also on the country or even the region.
More important than the name is to see what it is the norm in the company.

Anonymous

Can anyone tell me, in general, what female engineers wear to work? My youngest DD wants to major in engineering, and I've been wondering about this.

Helenedith

This is really interesting, I am in Australia, which can be quite laid back, however, I am in a position of authority as are my staff however, often they will wear clothes more suitable for casual weekend wear with the result that their clients don't recognise their authority and discount what their advice is. It is a fine balance between corporate unapproachable wear to authorative, but approachable clothing style which we often grapple with.