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Challenge: Orthodox Judaism and clothing.

Megan

So my friend is an Orthodox Jew, and she's having a birthday party. Normally when we're just hanging out, I can wear whatever I want, but in this case I can't. She's invited the rest of her large extended family and there's a Jewish dress code - it's called tznius, but clothing is just one part of tznius. Seeing as I'm a Conservative Jew, I know the rules of the Jewish dress code. Good for me. Problem is, I'm out of ideas of what to wear, especially in this sort of quasi-casual setting.

I know that I can't wear:
-Skirts with slits of any kind, for simplification's sake (kickpleats, in other words).
-Bright, vibrant colors - especially bright red and definitely not brightly colored tights.
-Pants or Trousers, or anything historically or currently masculine. (No menswear, including waistcoats or vests for example. I'm not permitted to wear male-style shirts, either.)
-Open toe shoes.

I know I can wear:
-Skirts that cover the knee with tights, even when sitting down.
-Sleeves that end at the elbow, but it's recommended that they go beyond the elbow.
-Shirt collars must cover my collarbone.
-Colors, so as long as they don't meet the not-wearable colors.
-Dresses or separates.
-My hair uncovered (I've never been married, but if I was, I'd have to cover it completely up with a wig, hat, or handkerchief of sorts.).
-Fitted clothes that aren't too fitted (I can look like a woman, in other words, but I can't be wearing really tight clothes).

I have to buy this stuff anyways, because Conservative Jews dress according to tznius for Synagogue. But I don't want to buy stuff that looks old, like my current ill-fitting Synagogue wear. So I decided to challenge you to meet these requirements in creating wardrobe wear for the 18-30 Orthdox Jewish woman.

If you're going to get upset over these rules for Feminist reasons, let me reassure that men have just as restrictive requirements, down to have to wear socks with sandals. In some ways, it's more restrictive, because at least I'm wearing a skirt and an elbow-length shirt in 90 degree weather, while they're stuck wearing a very heavy suit.

Dressing

19 replies

Latest reply was from Megan

Anonymous

Megan, can you wear white? I instantly thought of a light-colored sheath dress (covered colar bones) with a colored or dark jacket or cardigan over it. Tights and flats and a few accesories later...?

shiny

Veteran

I'll be interested to hear what everyone else comes up with. I live in an area with a high population of synagogues, and from what I've seen, you can pull off stylish. I'm in Boston area though so black and understated neutrals tend to be quite popular as it is!!

I think the hardest part is going to be the skirt. Right now, most skirts are hitting at knee or higher. It is tough to find longer lengths. Unless you happen to be petite... in which case, it may work fine just buying a regular skirt and not having it hemmed!!

With a brief search, I found this skirt, for fall though.... it might just be long enough.... and isn't it gorgeous with grey tights!!

http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/29.....9&P=2

Here it is with the suggested top:

http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/29.....ordinating

Might be more than you wanted to spend though.

This skirt might just work too:
http://www.bananarepublic.com/.....pid=583288

Would something like this work?
http://www1.macys.com/catalog/.....AdID=48088

I'm thinking a full, longer skirt (since you have a no slit rule), with a more fitted top (not too tight - form-fitting) that hits high at the hip or is worn tucked in. With longer skirts, I suggest wearing heels -not-flats. Gives a better line.

You could have fun with cropped cardigans.... can you wear sleeveless under a 3/4 length cropped cardi? So when you are outside at least, you're a bit cooler?

christie

Not to mention the fact that combining materials are forbidden, too.

We should explain to anyone not familiar with Jewish traditions that not all Orthodox Jews must follow these restrictions. This is the restrictions placed predominately on Ashkenazi (of Eastern European Descent) Orthodox Jews (and Orthodoxy/Conservative/Reform are an Ashkenazi distinction). Traditional Sephardi or Mizrahi (Mediterranean/Middle Eastern) Jews, whose traditions mirror Orthodox traditions, do not always follow these rules (although their own cultures might be conservative if they are from the Middle East, such as Yemen). Neither do all Modern Orthodox Jews. Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews represent a very small segment.

I should also say good for you for dressing traditionally for your conservative shul. I go to conservative services, but no one dresses so traditionally. So much so, that when recently a haredi man started attending services, he really stood out.

I think separates would work best. Then you have more versatility with other clothing you own.

Here is a nice skirt that would work with tights and chunky heels:
http://www.bananarepublic.com/.....pid=583288

and a high-collared blouse:
http://www.bananarepublic.com/.....pid=583099
http://www.bananarepublic.com/.....pid=587951

that would look great with a cardigan.

or try this jacket:
http://www.tulle4us.com/shop/s.....;nPageNo=6
or this:
http://www.tulle4us.com/shop/s.....;nPageNo=6

Over a pencil skirt, like this:
http://www.tulle4us.com/shop/s.....;nPageNo=2

You're probably not going to be haute fashion, but I think you still have options!

christie

Funny Shiny, we picked the same BR skirt!

Inge

(website)

This is really interesting Megan, I have always wondered about the dress rules. (I live in the Jewish neighbourhood of Antwerp and I can't compare to other cities/countries, but I'm sad to say that almost all Jewish women here (orthodox Jews I think), regardless of their age, dress very 'matronly' and rather 'old-fashioned' - but then again, what do I know about what is permitted for them...).

I like the suggestions that have been made. Here are some more ideas.
http://www.bodenusa.com/col.as.....&gen=

http://www.lordandtaylor.com/g.....8&c=1

http://www.lordandtaylor.com/g.....6&c=1
with a cardigan?

http://www1.macys.com/catalog/.....=EverGreen

http://www.joulesclothing.com/.....E_HOVE.htm
(in the 'bandstand' or 'engineered' print? - they ship to the USA by the way)

http://www.joulesclothing.com/.....E_ENID.htm
this blouse in navy with a lighter colour pencil skirt and a cute scarf (as in the picture) would look quite snappy I think

Not sure if you wanted shoe advice too, but as you all probably know by now, I'm quite partial to these Miz Mooz (but can you wear shoes with an open back?):
http://www.endless.com/Miz-Moo.....=242323011|242324011|242325011|242327011|382805011|242328011|382806011|242330011|294479011&brands=&keywords=&sort=shoesbrowserel2&onsale=0&newarrivals=0&&showDesigner=2&secondaryBrands=&sizes=&widths=&heelheights=&page=6&fromPage=search&contextTitle=Search%20Results&qid=1214162721532&sr=1-55&prepickColor=1&asins=B0011MSGZ2,B0016OJ2JE,B0016OM8XG,B0012LLW9E,B0018BM0TO,B000Z813CQ,B00110PVLQ,B000VYALIQ,B0015T0SR0,B00128LBOI,B00110PZ3A,B00149YOSK,B0011YVZZ8,B0012JIECO,B0014S4YDQ,B000XWPCN0,B000XPY1XO,B000WGD8HE,B0011SJVOQ,B000W0GW4Q,B000YQJM0E,B000WN1N5G,B0014TMSMO,B000P66GO8,B000P54AMY,B000OVD610,B0013EESJ6,B0013TQ4PW,B000VZZM2A,B0012DNEJS,B0016WVDS4,B0012QAVLY,B0017UH5CI,B001248ZKA,B000TRGVVG,B0014TSJ0E,B000XR2K5S,B000YJOIJG,B0010BFA6M,B00128CBQU,B00128MS04,B00112B34I,B0015RC2JY,B000WPG2LE,B0012M10DG,B0010B8HJ4,B000WMVQEA,B000S5PRBY,B0013MNR36,B000XS5JP0,B000TYOR42,B0013M36GY,B000VZLILY,B000VK7OKI,B00134RBEK,B0012H1GKI,B000WMTJY4,B0014S3CTI,B001067C4K,B0012RXGZQ,B000XN1MSI,B001331AK2,B0013MM05W,B000NCZM62,B000UU11OY,B0011YPR5W,B00138WHX6,B0014XVEQQ,B0013LXOA8,B000X98DD4,B0014C2MHC,B00110IEGU,B000S5YGI4,B000W7OARU,B0014136F0,B000VYKG8G,B0012WJIBM,B0013E6CK4,B000Y1S4TY,B000UKGCAM,B0013Z7H16,B000UKMMHE,B000Y1RE5E,B000ON9K5O,B000X4U2CE,B000Z7XASW,B000VYEN8U,B000RHC9I2,B00166D978,B000VYVIF6,B0011ZVBWE,B000WJIWM2,B000T2YY38,B000Q6O644,B0011YRXY0,B000UOCI06,B000OHE6T0,B0014TIUGC,B0015IRQCG,B000Q6OA4U
(in taupe or black)

http://www.endless.com/Miz-Moo.....=242323011|242324011|242325011|242327011|382805011|242328011|382806011|242330011|242331011|294479011&brands=&keywords=&sort=shoesbrowserel2&onsale=0&newarrivals=0&&showDesigner=2&secondaryBrands=&sizes=&widths=&heelheights=&page=5&fromPage=search&contextTitle=Search%20Results&qid=1214162440204&sr=1-85&prepickColor=1&asins=B0016OLJJA,B000N32ZGQ,B0016POUKE,B000SMTYPM,B0012KXKU4,B00128OD0C,B000Z9DVN4,B000THD4W0,B0012WIUYS,B001657DAS,B0012LV9P6,B0012U5N7W,B0014EK0AQ,B000O62UZI,B000WBKCIW,B00119QK7G,B000YHIB96,B0015R7P28,B0012MWM6K,B0016NM3IW,B0016ONSPS,B0016OI2EU,B000Y4UKRK,B0014K4OTI,B0011MRRK2,B0014H7SJE,B000U60K6S,B000W90VZ8,B0012C3NQS,B0012M1C34,B0012FHIN4,B0013YPLKQ,B0012N9WC6,B0014TQ280,B00112IB84,B000UKOHMM,B000Q8TX22,B000Z8MNK2,B0012GXRO2,B000XR6T00,B001614WLA,B000WS5Q9K,B0013MQRWY,B001440VKU,B000XYZ9MM,B000W7HG1M,B0012SELCM,B0012FJME2,B000YJYFRG,B001414Q5O,B000S5ZUX4,B0014TQGS6,B000W7ON5E,B0011ZSQ22,B000WMTUGG,B000WS3MKA,B000XG6TYM,B0014XOH6A,B0011EA0AY,B0013M02NY,B000TRGV8E,B000W7GPOG,B0010BLJNA,B001331WBY,B000OKX3X2,B0015T7X8C,B00160B8J0,B000XK1BBE,B0011EJ7JO,B000UTT8XG,B000W5MRUE,B0015VEXVA,B0013U7L9E,B0012FHJCE,B000WJMSN6,B00101TJOQ,B0012ERGQE,B000Z84XAK,B000VJH63O,B0012WBSUQ,B000WQ1N08,B0014S8Q9Y,B00128OSMK,B000WBQ1JG,B00134RGL8,B000VK29VM,B000W251UU,B000WJGY0O,B0016GB0OW,B000XS3YOS,B000VRVK8I,B0015Z44X8,B000WEN2GI,B00126T4M6,B0012H3DFY,B0010C05IY,B000YDQ28C,B0010ZELU4,B00152U3ZE,B0010TDQSI
(in taupe, purple or black)

And these in herringbone are adorable too;-)
http://www.6pm.com/n/p/p/7277599/c/43036.html

(that dégradé skirt is gorgeous Shiny, I wonder if I would be able to carry of a tiered skirt like that though)

Inge

(website)

Something went wrong with those two links, sorry about that. If you cut and paste them into your browser they should work though.

Inge

(website)

Sigh, apparently not. Anyway, I meant the Miz Mooz Jacky and Joey.
http://www.endless.com/s/ref=t.....0&y=0

Megan

I can wear white, because I've been to her house on the Sabbath before to drop things off, and they were wearing white. I'd imagine that it'd be unbearable if they couldn't.

I could get away with the patterned floral skirt, but it's very hard to say if it'd go over well with some people (not that I care, mind you.). Patterns tend to be much more subtle (and smaller) than that. I'd also imagine that I could get away with sleeveless with a cardigan, so as long as there was no way that they could tell that I was sleeveless.

Backless shoes are a bad idea, but it's still not a bad thing to suggest, because the shoes are cute.

Christie, unfortunately for me, I don't go to shul that much because it is so very far away (and my friend drives even farther, the gas is *killing* them.), and I actually dress less conservatively for Synagogue than I will for this party, but most of the time, I try to keep as much as the rules as possible. On a side note, we are some of the only Jews in the area. Growing up, though, we were the "Jewish Girls", and were exposed to a lot of people calling us Kikes while throwing rocks and pebbles at us. She'd cry, and I'd beat them up.

But back to the fashion. Fortunately, I'm not "haute" anything, so a lot of the clothes would work well for me in general. For me personally, I'm six feet tall with large boobs and size 11 shoes, so some of the clothes aren't the best in fit, but I like what I see.

shiny

Veteran

Inge: try http://www.tinyurl.com - And what is dégradé?

Megan, I'm thinking, if you don't want an ankle length skirt but something longer than knee length, then you may need to check out a store specially designed for tall women. That way the hemline will hit you correctly.

The good news is, if you are that tall I bet you can carry off ankle-length skirts with much more ease than someone short like me. I just did a search on "tall women skirts" and followed a link to Newport News. Click on Long skirts and I see more options there than I've seen anywhere else. I like this fit-and-flare skirt - I actually have one very similar:

http://www.newport-news.com/sh.....ry_id=1706

This is pretty too:
http://www.newport-news.com/sh.....ry_id=1706

I like the bias-cut, fit and flare style myself, for longer skirts. You don't drown in fabric so much, and it shows that you have a shape.

Talbots is another option to look into - they raise "conservative" to an art form.
http://www1.talbots.com/talbot.....&XID=

This linen fluted skirt looks particularly promising:
http://www1.talbots.com/talbot.....&sk=M

BR does carry Tall women clothing... but it looks like most of what they offer at the moment is intended to hit at knee or above. Might be worth a check in the fall!

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

I love this thread. Thanks for the openness and information, Megan.

We have several Jewish friends around the world that range from secular to extremely orthodox. Their dress code is completely different. I was challenged with outfitting a very orthodox Jewish friend for a Ball when we lived in France. It wasn’t hard because we opted for a long dress and hose anyway. She looked beautiful.

Inge’s suggestion of shopping at Tall Girl would have been my suggestion. Christie’s suggestion of separates is another great one. Excellent clothing options have been made. Stick to a closed-toe pump or ballet flat too. Let us know how you fare.

http://www.tallwomensclothes.c.....&008=

Inge

(website)

Thanks for the extra info Megan, this is great actually, we're learning here as we go along;-)

'Growing up, though, we were the "Jewish Girls", and were exposed to a lot of people calling us Kikes while throwing rocks and pebbles at us. She'd cry, and I'd beat them up.'
That a girl!-) But I'm very sorry to hear you guys had to go through this, that's just awful!

It's not always easy to determine whether a skirt or dress is the right length, when measurements are not mentioned online, and we of course have no idea how tall the models are (but I think we can assume that they are at least 5'7 right?). Or as I suggested this week in another thread, maybe you could try a shop that caters to taller women?

A few more ideas, most of them dresses (I don't know why I was suddenly determined to find you a dress;-):
http://www.dvf.com/dvf/browse/.....Id=DRESSES

http://www.dvf.com/dvf/browse/.....yId=SKIRTS

http://www.bluefly.com/pages/p.....sform=true
But would that work with a cardi?

http://www.shabbyapple.com/pc-15-3-nantucket.aspx
(or are the sleeves too short?)

By the way, do you know what your body type is Megan, that way we could narrow things down too.

Inge

(website)

Shiny, dégradé is when different shades of a colour gradually 'blend into' each other, I was referring to this grey skirt:
http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/29.....9&P=2

Angie: Shiny was the first one to suggest a store for tall women actually, but I did mention it somewhere else this week;-)

Megan: do keep us posted pretty please.

Nicole

Veteran

When I think of long skirts, I think of Lands End, Eddie Bauer, JJill and Chicos. I know that Eddie Bauer has overall length of skirts and dresses in their "details" tab on their website.

http://www.eddiebauer.com/EB/W.....hide%22%7D

Did you say that you cannot wear anything floral?

I'm curious if guests are informed of the dress code prior to the event? Or is it just assumed that everyone invited is knowlegable on tznius?

Christie, you commented on the material...so maybe a dress would be the easiest way to accomplish that.

Taffy

I finally have something to contribute!!! (another 6 footer~)

I'd be somewhat cautious with the long elegant legs clothing...I bought a couple dressy shirts from them years back and the sleeves shrunk to the length that I could have gotten from normal people clothes!

I am a devout mormon, and we also have some dress code rules..so maybe if you were to search modest clothes and LDS or mormon you might find something...

I found this by using that search (not sure if it's too dressy?):

http://www.greatlengthsshorts......rod_id=233
---you could get it in ivory if the colors were too much...

http://mikarose.com/index.php?.....38;cPath=3

I loved a lot of these!! I've never ordered from either of these companies before...so I can't vouch for that though

Megan

I'm hourglass-ish inverted Triangle with some small rectangle tendencies, I guess. It's going to make me even more popular with the boys (as if being female and Jewish doesn't automatically make me popular with the boys. Ergh.).

If you'd like to take a look and judge for yourself, please keep in mind that anything full length in these photos is skewed a bit, because I'm shooting down and not face-to-face. http://img296.imageshack.us/im.....re4vz1.png

I can wear floral, I can't wear anything really bold though. The idea is to be more "modest" and "wholesome". Patterns can be worn. But I can't have for example, that really bright yellow that was really popular a while ago, it's calling too much attention to myself.

I can wear color, but nothing too bright and vibrant, examples of color (but not dresses, they all have stuff wrong with them.) I could wear includes:
http://tinyurl.com/6hmv5y
http://tinyurl.com/5ulsux
http://tinyurl.com/6l6oj6

Most of the non-Jewish guests are male, and even if they were female, they'd be expected to dress appropriately for church with a skirt that's long enough and a top that's high enough with long sleeves. Nobody really expects a non-Jew to do all the little rules (it'd be unfair. It's like expecting me to know all the little details of a Mass by heart.), but since I'm "Megan, my Jewish friend", I'm expected to follow them because I'm over the age of 12.

If this was in anyway remotely religiously oriented, there'd be no non-Jews there (and even me getting invited would be in question.). But it's just a secular birthday party, so of course she can party with her friends.

http://www.shabbyapple.com/pc-15-3-nantucket.aspx -- Sleeves are definitively too short.

christie

Megan, where do you live? Yes, unfortunately, anti-semitic remarks come with the territory. Even in my fairly progressive town, our shul was fire-bombed a few years back, and every once in awhile the KKK likes to paper the town with anti-Jewish (and black) hate literature. Oh yeah, and then there is the oft-heard expression "let's Jew him down," which my husband hears far too often from his clients wanting to negotiate.

Well, the skirts I picked out were definitely for someone short like me. As Shiny said, a regular skirt for a shorter gal would work well for this situation. Those knee-length skirts would be mid-calf on me. But (as Shiny also noted), a taller gal can fashionably get away with a longer skirt.

I think you should try something fun like one of the mandarin collar tunics. Also, I'm not generally a fan of Eileen Fisher, but she does have some flowy basics that tend to be longer and offer more coverage (which is exactly why I don't like her, ha!). Check out this for some ideas:
http://eileenfisher.com/script.....0001057050

shiny

Veteran

I like the wrap dress Taffy posted! That would look great with your figure, Megan.

Not sure about the material-mixing part, but otherwise, if you go the long skirt route, I suspect the shape of the tulip skirt I posted would be awesome on you!! I have similarly narrow hips, and what's nice about this particular shape is that it gives you the illusion of having more hips and curves to balance out the upper half.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

I second that motion. Wrap dress Taffy posted gets a big thumbs up. Is that a possibility or is it still too alluring?

I'm putting a spanner in the works, Megan. You are in secular company. You mentioned that the party was secular. How observant are you expected to be?

You live in WASP’y area, Christie. We’ve got to get you and your Greg to Seattle. Second to CA, I believe WA is probably the most pc state around. Seattleites would role out the red carpet for you!

Megan

I live in the rural south, so I guess there's some truth in stereotypes. Nobody would firebomb anything (or at least I hope not), but the new Reform Temple on the other side of the county has been fighting people trying to force them to foreclose on loans that I suspect are imaginary.

Angie, some of the family really don't get Conservative Judaism (I mean, I can sing in the presence of a man and dance with men! Mixed gender shul?! If I had a Bat Mitzvah, I would have given a D'var Torah, which is kinda like a sermon. Shocking!), and it is in the best interest for me to be there for both the non-Jews (who'll get some shunning from these ancient folks because they're not Jewish) and to not alienate these really old fashioned fuddieduddies. It's also not worth getting into a fight over, because these people will pick on me harder than the non-Jews.

I don't want any more hassle than I need.

Shiny, all that means is I can't wear clothing with mixed fiber. I can't wear 90% cotton 10% wool clothes, for example.

But I'm going shopping.