I'm an IT and realized long ago (largely thru sewing for myself and others) that 'normal sizes' just aren't. They don't truly fit 95-98% of the population and are fairly arbitrary. Everyone has their own shape. According to 'traditional sizing' i take a 12-14 in the shoulders, 10-12 in the bust and waist, and 6-8 in the hips.

However, people don't look at me on the street and run away screaming 'on my god the deformity!!!!!' I sew for myself, wear some knits, and do a lot of alterations. If i can't wear much of anything off the rack i take it as a commentary on our crazy clothing-production system, not me.

The one thing i've learned from taking many outfit pictures over the last couple of years is that posing and choosing clothing makes a huge difference in how my body looks. The feedback you get from the camera, videotape, the mirror, and other people all tell you only part of the story that is you. How you feel about what you wear is a whole other world of information. Take into account what you want and leave the rest. Easier said than done, but one can make it a goal. steph

Well said, Steph. I certainly don't feel like I'm shaped like a freak, but if I go by clothing sizes, it sure seems that way! I just laugh now. And I love my alterationist.

I was going through a bought of body dysmorphia recently. The thread of find your YLF body twin did not help at all. But a surprising thing did help me recently. I went to a burlesque show in Portland, OR. The performers had a range of body types, and they all were not perfect. If they have the confidence to shimmy in barely there costumes on stage, then I was fine in my clothes.

I don't like the idea of any kind of "twins." And any time I hear "Oh I know someone who looks JUST LIKE YOU" I get nervous.

Anna, I'm sorry to hear that. I don't need a twin, but I do find it hugely helpful and reassuring that other women here have similar fit issues and can offer suggestions or solutions based on what they've learned. Honestly, that has helped me more than anything!

It's so odd that so many women here that I think of as tiny do not see themselves that way.
I have no idea about myself anymore. I have a large frame and am muscular, and so even at my lowest weight I was at the higher end of the straight size range. I love meeting YLFers in person, but I have to admit that in some ways it is difficult for me because I feel ginormous next to them- especially when I see the photos.
I'm not an IT, but I do have broad shoulder. Being at the high end of the size spectrum, it's often not possible to size up for jackets.

Anna, I find watching burlesque and similar body-centred events incredibly healing. Even when I don't think I'm body dysmorphic they shake up my perspective and I realise I was holding onto a lot of body "rules" in a taken-for-granted way.

I didn't find a body twin in the YLF thread and TBH there was potential for me to be weirded out by it when not one woman seemed to have the disparity between bust and seat that I do (I wasn't, but could have been if I'd followed through and posted my pics like I was going to). I'd still love to find my twin though, that's why I'd rather split the twin quest into threads via body type, so I'm not confronted with how everyone else is an hourglass or rectangle etc...

I know this wasn't your point AG but for a long time I thought IT was the most enviable and socially acceptable body type. I went to high school pre J-lo and the mass marketing of hiphop culture; big butts not only weren't "in" then, girls were cruelly teased for it as if it was the most disgusting thing that could go wrong with your body (I hid mine for the most part). I always looked at IT girls as the most beautiful. Who cared if someone had a bit of tummy when they had cleavage, great shoulders, slim legs and a (highly desirable) tiny bum?

It is fascinating to me to hear how this body type poses its own challenges in dressing. But I hope all you ITs can enjoy your wonderful bodies too.

And you must look amazing when you're climbing!

That's interesting, Fruitful. I never even thought about the concept of "inverted triangle" till I came to YLF. I always just felt my upper body was outsized and on bad days, fat. My ideal body type that I would have given anything to attain was a slim hourglass or rectangle.

When I was in Brazil visiting my brother, I felt like an absolute FREAK because the women mostly have small chests and round derrieres - it's all about the thong and the little teeny triangle bikini tops that wouldn't even begin to cover me up. I heard there's a lot of plastic surgery to attain the body ideal there, but still, it was weird to feel even MORE boobalicious than I already do.

Now I realize all body types, like all face shapes, are beautiful and have their struggles, and can be dressed to suit them, including mine.

I've been a bit obsessed about body types since my teens Una I think it started with realising my bum was taking up more real estate than the other girls', and filling my head with the contents of Dolly, Cosmo and Cleo (until one of them covered Naomi Wolf and The Beauty Myth when I was 15 - I then read the book and gave up the magazines!).

That would be totally weird in Brazil, I can't imagine how you would have felt. I wonder is it really possible for a body type to dominate in a part of the world, or if the ITs just don't show themselves. (Pondering, I think I'd still feel my bum is oversized in Brazil...)

Yes - all bodies are beautiful and I think the more I encounter the fallibility of the body, including mortality, the more I appreciate and celebrate the body I have.

This is so helpful. I have not been formally diagnosed but am a rectangularish, ITish, appleish sort. Like Elisabeth clothes that fit my legs and hips won't button and I have much better luck finding low waisted garments. I am extremely self conscious of my side view, as my stomach can poof out like I am 5 months pregnant despite all the core work I do. It may be twisted, but looking at a picture of a woman whom I think looks great, and then reading how she is self conscious about this or that, which I didn't even notice, is very therapeutic for me.

Thanks for starting this interesting conversation, Alaskagirl! I feel that my body image is not quite matched to what others see. I get the "you're so tiny" comment a lot, whereas I have always felt pretty much average-sized. I am 5 foot, 5 1/2 inches tall and wear an XS or S in tops and usually around a 2 in ready-to-wear pants. I admit I'm on the small size of average, but I really, really do not feel "tiny": not frail looking, not small-boned, not delicate. I feel trim and fit, strong for my size, and I am happy with my body. My style challenge is dressing to flatter my body while also being comfortable and reflecting my personality. The people who say I'm tiny often also say "you can wear anything and look good"--and I certainly take that as a compliment, but I have definitely found looks that I do not find flattering in the least on me!

As always, Una, you have started an interesting discussion. It's funny, because I found myself nodding along with so many people's replies...even people coming at this with completely different body types or opposite perspectives!

That's because (aged crone that I am) my body has gone through a number of significant changes over the years. At the moment, I am still learning to dress for a shape I've never had before, and it's a truly disorienting feeling, even though I am mostly happy about the changes.

I don't feel body dysmorphic, but I do have the experience, still (a year on) of sometimes not entirely recognizing myself, in pics or in a reflection in a window. That's not me I see. "Me" is still the very pear shaped girl I was at 17. It's weird.

ETA and also weird is how I recognize how beautiful that pear shaped 17 year old was...when at the time, all I could see was what Fruitful described: a body type that was ALL WRONG for the era.

As I mentioned in another thread about vanity sizing, I feel worse about my body because sizing isn't consistent.

I don't mind being whatever size I am - but when I am such wildly differing sizes across so many brands and stores, it starts to mess me up a wee bit. Somehow, in the time I lost about 110 lbs. is right when vanity sizing kicked in. What makes it even worse is that each store or brand is totally different when it comes to how clothes fit and whether their sizes are 'true to size' or generous or cut small or whatever. I don't think 'true to size' exists anymore, and I would not know how to answer someone who asked whether something was true to size. I have no idea!

This sort of thing is not helping in the body image department at all. I am really confused!

I would like to lose some more pounds (maybe up to twenty), but when I can fit into a size 'small' and still somehow manage to be considered overweight for my frame size/height - something is wrong, and it is not helping.

I don't think there should be a size 0 or 00 - this just doesn't seem right to me, and it's wrong to have people who might have been a size four or six, ten or twenty years ago, not able to find clothes that fit.

Seems there are a lot of people who are feeling weird about their body size/shape and I'm betting a lot of it has to do with wonky sizing these days.

Who are they making these clothes for, anyhow? What kind of body fits the same size, top and bottom?

Well, not me, that's for sure. I have always felt big and overweight, and when I look in the mirror I see big stomach and chubby thighs. Thus I am always shocked when people describe me as "small" "tiny" etc. I have quite a large rib cage in proportion (whatever that means!) to the rest of my body. So I can wear a size 6 on bottom and a size 10 button-down shirt pulls tight across my chest :b

It's interesting many people have some sort of body dysmorphia. You are all so confident in the way you present yourselves, it's surprising how self-image differs from public perception!

Funny thing, how awkward and alien our bodies can feel sometimes, when we've lived with and known them all our lives!

Like Joy, I was the tallest kid in class by a long shot --- when I was 6 or so. At 5 I was rather fat, looking back at photos, but I didn't feel like it --- I FELT fine. Ever since, people have called me chubby, and seeing as I developed boobs and thighs early (34B bra at age 8), that plus my plump, rounded arms drew comments enough to make me quite self-conscious as a girl. The odd thing was, left to myself, I FELT fine --- I was just awkward about how people saw me.

Then by my teens, I'd started to internalize and hate my waist and legs and arms a bit. Also strangely, by this time I was one of the shortest kids (I'm a full-grown 4'10'') but I still FELT taller. I'd be put out when a friend towered over me, or remarked on how short I was --- not because I minded being short per se, but because I didn't feel 'tiny'.

Now, I've mostly made my peace with my body, but I still find I think of myself as slimmer and taller than I am. I will suddenly catch sight of myself in a mirror or shop window, or in a photo with friends... and realize I look a lot rounder and squatter than I think I am, especially from the side. It doesn't help, I guess, that I look narrower from the front than the side, and mostly see myself head-on in the mirror.

But what really gets my goat is that people actually remember me as chubbier than I am! For some reason, I clearly exude an impression of rotundity quite apart from my actual size, because I've lost count of the many people I'm meeting after a couple of years (or several months) who will say, 'Oh! But you've lost weight!' --- when in truth I'm exactly the same or a few pounds heavier. In shops, sales assistants will often look me up and down a bit when I ask for my size, clearly unable to believe I am what I claim. I have no explanation for this. It's what got me wondering whether I dress a lot more frumpily than I think and brought me to YLF!

annagybe, I sorry for the distress that the body twin thread caused you

Fruitful - the reason I didn't break it up , apart having only inconvenient holiday computer access at the time and doubts about continuing a thread that made some people feel bad, is that I don't think it is always that simple - I am a pear/ rectangle/ broad shoulder amalgam, and wouldn't be sure where to post. You can do it though! BTW I do share your small bust/full bottom combination and I have found some of your comments on my outfits very inciteful and clearly coming from your own experience

Una I googled body dysmorphia and the widipedia entry seemed to indicate that it was more about an obsession with body image and perceived defects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....c_disorder. You seemed to be using it as seeing your body differently from how it is or how others see it? Is that right?

I have a similar issue to you, Manidipa -- I see myself as much slimmer and hourglass-shaped in my mind, and it weirds me out when I see my body from the side. On the other hand I sometimes think that I am much larger than I am, and every once in a while I will see someone in the street that I think is the same size as me, but DH will tell me that I am much slimmer. Body image and the perception of other people is such a minefield of emotion.

At any rate, I've been really surprised by the positive reactions to my appearance and the WIWs that I have posted so far. In my mind I feel that I look like a cross between a bag lady and a walrus. I half expected someone to send me a PM saying "we mean this as nicely as possible, but all of us on the forum think that you are a hopeless case and you really don't belong here..." Geez, talk about paranoia...

I think I'm slimmer than I actually am - my full-length mirror tricks me into believing I'm smaller (all over - even height) than I actually am so at first I was really quite shocked to see myself in the WiW photos! Even though I know what size clothes I wear!

My top half is going on for 2 sizes bigger than my bottom half which for someone who's never had a bust before is quite a shocker! After stopping smoking last year, I've put on around 20 pounds & I now have a very hourglassy figure (I think) - my waist is about 12 inches smaller than my bust & hips.

Other people have the perception that I'm a lot taller than I am but I'm not sure why. I'm around 5'6" which I thought was about average?

Hullo VC! "Seems there are a lot of people who are feeling weird about their body size/shape and I'm betting a lot of it has to do with wonky sizing these days. "

IMO it's even more to do with how we produce clothing. Just take a look around and you'll see that people are a lot like our canine companions - we are incredibly varied as to size, shape, color, texture, etc. Variety is the standard of the human being!

Yet we have popular stores, say the GAP, where one or two different shapes of pants are supposed to fit everybody perfectly. Uh, hullo, take a look around and see how much sense THAT makes on the face of it. We all must be brainwashed to believe this garbage.

I will be very interested to see if made-to-measure technologies keep on improving and putting custom clothing in the price range of more people. I sew a great deal of my wardrobe, precisely because of the trouble i have finding anything off the rack.

As a result, i end up not comparing my body to particular sizes, brands, etc. i know it's perfectly possible to make well-fitting clothing for this body and it's not a huge deal! It's not my fault if various manufacturers can't get their act together. steph

Here here Steph! Well said!

I find myself remembering that Marilyn Monroe was considered the perfect female specimen with a gorgeous body all women wanted and is now considered "plus size". In the span of 40 years, the accepted female shape has completely changed and most clothing is made for women with no bust, a tiny waist and absolutely no hips - a.k.a male shaped bodies. My husband often comments on clothing that is size 0 - he always says "does that mean they don't exist 'cause it's a zero, like nothing?"!

Thanks to everyone posting here. Anne, good point - body dysmorphia is technically more than just confusion or pondering over body shape. I do have a bit of true body dysmorphia from having had a breast reduction - I still see my boobs as ginormous even though they are not. But I definitely don't perseverate on it. The sizing issue is really what prompted this whole thread for me.

It's also interesting to me that, for example, Mo and I are the same weight, though she is a few inches taller ,and yet I'm a size or two bigger than her. Height and weight do not tell the whole story by any means! Having a thick waist and big shoulders totally alters the proportions.

And the vanity sizing is a whole issue in itself, as we know from that thread!

Hoo boy, what a topic. To my husband's eye, I have a bit of body dysmorphia as I have always believed my thighs are disproportionate with the rest of my body. Well, I still think they are, but I'm more okay with that now than I used to be. (My husband also thinks I'm "little" even though I'm 5'7" but everything's relative -- he's 6'6", so yeah, to him I am little!)

There are days I feel big and days I feel smallish, which is always strange to me because nobody gains or loses 20 lbs overnight, right? It goes to show how much of this is mental, and how our brains are not always our friends when it comes to this stuff. I grew up comparing my body to every other female body I saw, and that does a terrible number on one's self-confidence. I still have the tendency, but I catch myself and stop pretty quickly now.

In reading through this thread I have come to realize that we all tend to think other body types have it easier than we do! I have always envied IT types because of the struggles I've had with fitting things over my hips and thighs, not realizing that it's equally challenging fitting broader shoulders and bust.

Bottom line, we're all unique and beautiful.

I'm a bit late for this thread, but it caught my eye just now.

I'm aware that most people have some body image issues at least once in their lives no matter what size, shape or gender they might be, but being an IT has felt like a real bummer compared to all other alternatives (as if I'd really know anything).

I've had similar experiences as kellygirl, I too have felt that I look so manly in pictures and especially when I'm with my friends. I feel like a big, wide letter Y although I probably am not. However, body type guides describing ITs with words like "manly" or "boyish" don't really help.

The fact that my body appreciation seems to depend almost entirely on my mood is probably the clearest evidence that I still have body image issues from my teen years, in other words, emotional issues. I'm not sure if that qualifies as body dysmorphia, but it's something similar.
Even though people here at YLF told me I have the characteristics of a slim hourglass, a dream come true btw, I still see huge shoulders that put all my other curves to shame. It's a state of mind, people don't have any idea what are the huge football shoulders I'm complaining about.

I have the same tendency as Janet has, the comparing. It's something I really, really should stop because it's pointless and torturing. I am what I am, and all the other people are what they are. Their lives aren't necessarily nicer just because they look more womanly, "better". That's the root of my problem, I think my looks is my downfall or the key evidence of my inferiority. That's the point, I feel inferior, and it's related to a whole other mess of problems, not really my looks although it's entangled in.

I went to see a professional when I was in my teens and had difficult phase in life, and he told me that humans have the tendency to explain difficult emotions and anxiety with something non-emotional.
In my case, at some early point of my life I came to the conclusion that I feel bad, and it must be because I look unfeminine, inadequate. I already know what the real cause is and it is not my looks or body type, I should remember that every time I feel like a she-male who just escaped the zoo. And damn, it's hard. But what other alternatives do I, or any of us really have?
Have strength, everyone.

Edit: Before I unintentionally insult people any further, I don't think gender minorities should be kept in zoos or that surgery is a no-no. My body issues are originally unrelated to my looks and I should mend them that way.