Bill Cunningham NY - Dare to Stand out vs. Location?

Inge

In the kick-off thread I added a Bill Cunningham quote:
"See, a lot of people have taste, but they don’t have the daring to be creative.”

I've been thinking about this further and Isabel (MA) raised a very interesting point:

"It also made me think that the majority of "real" people don't and can't dress that way due to social mores and location. So are the people of New York ( SoHo ) the "real" people who have landed in a place where they can really be themselves ? Would I dress like that in SoHo and find it freeing ? Would you ? And does it really take courage to dress that way in a place where no one really cares and those that do appreciate it ?"

I agree that defying your environmental norm (regardless of where you live) - something that comes up regularly on YLF - definitely plays a role here.

I'm very curious to hear your take on all this, e.g.:
- How much courage does it take to dress "creatively" or perhaps "more extravagantly" than the people around you?
- And do you think it really is less "daring" or less difficult in large cities like New York City, London, Paris... cities that we consider the fashion hubs of the world?
- If you see clothing as an important way to express your individuality or creativity, do you ever feel limited by your environment in doing so? What do you do to still "be yourself" in that case?

12 years ago

Book Club

13 replies

Latest reply was from Inge

Jonesy

Veteran

Yes, I would say that, of course, living in a large urban setting and dressing trendily or creatively requires less daring than wearing something similar in, say, small town Iowa (where I grew up). What is daring is relative, based on context, peers, media influences. If everyone around you looks the same way you do, what you are wearing is not daring. So, say I work at Conde Nast in NYC and I show up wearing Carhartt overalls, a plaid shirt, and work boots. This would be quite daring for that context! OTOH, say I worked construction in a small Midwestern town, and went to the grocery store wearing a patterned brightly-colored blouse buttoned all the way up, an armful of bracelets, pleated cropped pants in a different bright color and pattern, and 4" heels, carrying a bag that cost $2,000. This would garner some looks, I'm guessing :).

I think it takes a lot of courage/daring/creativity to actively defy the norms around you, whether it's in terms of style, dressing, behavior, ethics, etc. Social norms are very powerful and influential, and going against them requires effort and stamina. You have to have confidence in yourself and be willing to stick your neck out. It can be exhausting and feel isolating.

12 years ago

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Great comment, Jonesy!

Here's a different angle:

Inge, I think like the rest of the fashion and style world - Bill's view on this is so very subjective. He thinks that fashion and style is at it's best when you are hectically daring and creative with your outfits - whereas I kind of disagree with that.

When Catherine Deneuve stepped out of her car, Bill thought she looked very boring and had no style. We couldn't really see her entire outfit but I bet she looked KILLER

I think Bill's sense of Style Taste is OTT. I guess those types of outfits make for the best photos.

12 years ago

Anonymous

So much of what catches Bill's eye looks outrageous and costume-y to me. I don't think I would ever take fashion to that level, even if I lived in New York (actually I did live in NY for 6 months once, and even though I was 21, I still wasn't *that* daring or experimental with my style).

My location influences me a little, I'm not going to lie. I want to fit in but not totally disappear in the landscape of those around me. I guess I just don't want to stand out like a sore thumb (in a bad way). For the last 25 years I have lived in communities where the *average* person dressed badly. I don't want to come across as flashy, but I'd like to put more effort into how I dress while still taking into account the socio-economics of my geographical area.

12 years ago

MsMary

Veteran

I've been guilty of outfits approaching costumery, I think. The one in this photo comes to mind! LOL I wore it to the theatre in Los Angeles and I stood out a little, but only a little. I felt like it was just enough of a fashion risk to be fun!

Generally, I defy the fashion norms around me to a much smaller extent. I'm a little flashier, a little more ALGO, and a little more daring than most people, most of the time, but still well within what's appropriate.

Angie, I think you're right about Bill and his taste.

And Jonesey, I totally agree with you! Context is everything!

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12 years ago

Isabel

Veteran

Jonesy's comments are right on. I would like to dovetail off of that train of thought. What if one dressed appropriately/functional for the site but with flare ? The construction site example made me think of a female construction worker I saw once working in Boston. She had on a hot pink safety hat, pink work boots, and a blinged out tool belt. It was fantastic ! Though I loved it and totally admired her, I am not sure that I could do it. I think that took some "courage"...taking the norm and staying in the spirit, but not the details....if that makes sense. I actually think MaryK does this well, she stays within the structure of her law job but with leeway in "flair" and personality.

Since I am not at all creative or artistic, I can't imagine taking a real leap in Soho. I am not someone who can descontruct art, but I am usually pretty confident in what I like....as long as I don't have to put it on. LOL

I have a great trench, to me, that is various shades of purple in an animal print. I LOVE that trench, but only wear it in Boston. In my small town, which is agricultural, I might as well be RuPaul wearing that coat......at least that is how I feel. I suppose I don't feel I want to be "courageous" with that. I feel that just wearing a jacket and boots with jeans to the local store is "corageous". Recently, while I was there, the cashier and I and a middle age man started talking about Kim Kardashian and moved on to jewelry and clothes and what people go to the little store in. The man said that he couldn't believe the jewelry and "get -ups" that some of the "uppity" women in town wore. He asked, " To do what, buy bologna for their kids ? " Especially the ones that did not work......meaning stay at home moms. ( He was very nice by the way. ) This really got me to thinking.....why does the potential of someone saying that bother me if he said it about me ? I feel that I am pushing the envelope now by not buying all black outwear.

Until a couple of years ago, I had never heard the expression, " expressing yourself through your clothes...." to me that would mean a T shirt that said " I heart stats and Freddie Mercury "

12 years ago

rachylou

Veteran

MaryK, I love your theatre outfit!

***
To respond to the questions (I love questions and thinking about these things!) -

IMO, it takes a lot of courage to dress creatively or more extravagantly than the people around you. You can get a thrashing for that in a lot of places. You can also get ostracized or ostracize yourself, because no one knows what you're about. Clothing tells people who you are. Historically, societies - including Western - have legislated it. And history isn't over yet.

I definitely think it takes a lot less courage to be "daring" in the cosmopolitan cities of the world, where putting on the show is what it's all about. But while I say less, it still takes bravery. After all, for example, NYC is famous for its PIBS: People In Black - folks so filled with self-doubt about being creative enough, they essentially don't get dressed.

As for individuality or creativity and clothing, you know, I don't think I approach clothing that way. Clothing for me is entertainment... and also a tool kit. I *use* clothing. To stay warm, to protect myself from burns... to show allegiance, to throw in as a player or not... to say what I do. So, I always pay attention to my environment and the people around me. Expression of self is not exactly my aim.

I have to admit - I'd forgotten - truth in advertising was one of the wardrobe goals I'd identified for myself last year. As in preparing people for when I say to them: If Adam and Eve were amoeba, that would make it all come together! Ya, need to get zany in there.

12 years ago

Isabel

Veteran

Rachylou, that is brilliant !!! What a great way to put it : "Putting on a show. " That really is what people are doing. A "show" can really communicate who one is. Clothes, for me too, have always had a "function", a very concrete one. I am literally, at this moment, just trying to go beyond that to clothes that make me "happy" - like wearing color.

That is probably what Bill is looking for; a show. A grand show. That is why someone like Catherine Deneuve is "boring" to him. He also doesn't participate in the show, but loves to watch it...so he himself is not a worthy subject.

12 years ago

RoseandJoan

Veteran

I hope you do not mind if I leave a comment on this thread, I have not seen the documentary as I have yet to find a DVD compatible with my region but this is something I have been considering of late.

I live in a small town just south of Edinburgh, the area is quite rural and quite insular. Of late a local business man (a butcher) has started to wear women's clothing openly and I have been appalled by some of comments I have heard, would this gentleman's clothing choices be more readily accepted in a big city? If only life was so simple! A large population allows the opportunity to hide behind your anonymity or to seek solace in those who are similar but it does not make the crowd accepting of those who are different. It takes courage to break your environmental norm wherever you may be.

12 years ago

Jem

Veteran

I think it kindof depends if the closing feels like yourself, if you know what I mean. I grew up in a smaller town, that was right next to a "hippie town". I wound up going to university in that town for a couple of semesters and I continued to wear what felt like "me" which was definitely not hippie style. So, I would go to class in a red boxy blazer, red skinny cropped pants with red pumps and a yellow scarf (hey, it was the 80's) or other similar outfits. I remember being called "the girl in red" by the professor in a very large class, so I definitely stood out in the sea of jeans, birkenstocks and probably sweatshirts/tshirts. OK, I was also in a degree that had mostly boys. Anyway, I didn't feel like I needed courage, I was just being myself. I didn't care what anyone else was wearing and often was asked if I was from somewhere else (like LA). I have no problem wearing something that is "different" as long as I feel comfortable and happy in it.

As a disclaimer, I haven't seen the documentary and don't know the kindof outfits that he takes pictures of. I'm just commenting on needing courage to wear clothes different than the masses, I didn't feel like I was being courageous, just myself, if any of that makes sense.

12 years ago

rachylou

Veteran

Isabel - I think that's it exactly about Bill Cunningham. He's seeking capital A - Art in the medium of fashion. Catherine Deneuve can be exquisite, but she dresses functionally with a little bit of pretty. It isn't that exciting, although she herself is so beautiful.

***
RoseandJoan - There's a sort of black irony there. Bill Cunningham did a spread called "Men in Skirts" and it was all men in kilts. When does a piece of cloth become male or female?

12 years ago

Vicki

(website)

Veteran

What an amazing thread and I agree that it takes courage to dress in a style that feels personally satisfying and creative for those who dress both for self-expression and function. Jonesy's comments about context are excellent. I love the examples she cited. Isabel's story on the man's comments seem to show that judgments abound and perhaps are more apparent in smalltown U.S.A. rather than in our larger, metropolitan areas. That's why I think, in a grander way, Bill Cunningham, admires those OTT dressers, because they dress so grandly. He's recording the visual.

12 years ago

HelenInCanada

Veteran

I've only seen the intriguing trailer so far (I haven't downloaded the film yet), but I wanted to join in on this topic! There are some great observations made here - and interesting questions, Inge!

I believe 100% that my environmental norms have an influence on my style. I am ALWAYS inspired to dress more "excitingly" or daring when those around me enjoy it too. It feels meaningful, as though my efforts are not in vain or lost. This was the case when I stayed in NYC (Bronx) for a week and went traipsing around Manhattan to galleries and touristy places. I felt like people were on the "lookout" for well-dressed or crazily dressed people out and about, and would smile when catching sight of some. That definitely made me almost gleeful to yank out outfits and dresses that had been idly sitting back in my closet for months, and have an environment in which they were appreciated. Where I live, some women are VERY hip and chic, and many are just practical - though still decently groomed and turned out. So it does urge me to be more classic yet polished too. I always try to add an element of "fun" or boho for my own pleasure, though, but it's subtle. I'd say when I lived in a grubbier neighbhourhood, I felt the urge to dress more "tough" and "urban" (forget elegant, polished, or ultra romantic/bohemian - ick, the proverbial stares and once overs were very uncomfortable.)

I can't believe Bill called Catherine Deneuve boring! Wow!

12 years ago

Inge

(website)

Moderator

Such very astute comments and points of view here.

It was only after reading all your comments that I realized what had been bothering me about the "...but they don't have the daring to be creative" part of the quote: it was the interpretation of the word "creative".

It is such a subjective term, everyone interprets it differently. And everyone is different to begin with, so how could there be just one "right" way to be creative or dress creatively.
(Something that came up again this week in NancyLee's marvelous thread On dressing like an artist).

I guess I was a little miffed that only the more flamboyant dressers were considered creative in the documentary:-)
That's why Angie's Catherine Deneuve remark, Rachylou's "Putting on a show" , and Vicki's comment made so much sense. You probably do need OTT fashion to get great pictures, and to keep things interesting for a newspaper column on style.
But to me, dressing creatively, is finding ways to reflect on the outside who I am and how I feel on the inside. If this means your outfits are slightly or a lot outside of your environmental norm, I agree that this can come with a whole set of issues.

12 years ago

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