This is off topic but where have you seen similar jackets? I love this jacket but really want it in a faux leather version.

My avant-garde offerings:

Wow...I just clicked through the whole slide show to Anna's third link. That is AMAZING stuff. It's not real-life wearable, most of it (although some of it comes pretty close) but it is so interesting and inventive. Talk about making something from nothing. The hair was of course part of it....but the clothes themselves are fascinating, too.

Okay. Well, I think we have agreed that we are misusing the term avant-garde here (or I am) on YLF. "Alternate" does not have the same associations for me, Deborah, so I am going to have to come up with another name for the Rick Owens/ Helmut Lang/ and similar designs...maybe The Style Formerly Known As Avant-Garde.

Suz, let me doing some searching on line and get back to you. x

Those are cool, too, Gaylene! I am off to check Anna's other links - the slide show to 3 was so great I have to see the rest!

Gaylene, I think showing St. Martins graduate collections is cheating a bit. They are almost always SHOW pieces and pretty much never get produced.

Ah yes, but to me that is the essence of avant-garde--the experimenting and the going where no one has gone before. If we use the term avant-garde to describe fashion that is wearable and available to anyone, what do we call the conceptual, experimental pieces or even the items worn solely by one person because they cannot be reproduced--like Björk's collaborations with Alexander McQueen or even Cher's Bob Mackie outfits?

Fashion can be seen as on a bell curve, with avant garde leading the way, mainstream being the bulge in the middle and the trailing edge being dated or passe. Like a wave, what is now at the cutting edge eventually becomes the norm before becoming old fashioned.
I think one can be stylish at any point on that continuum, yes, even stylishly old fashioned.

This reminds me of the threads about what is "edgy." There is the liberally defined "edgy" -- which can incorporate soft elements, or hard ones, but is a stylish look that has unexpected elements and relies on juxtaposing styles to achieve interest. As Angie explains it. More about styling than specific things like hardware or the color black.

Then there's the "edgy" as you'd expect to see it used in a teen style magazine, as in "What's your Style?" "Are you: Edgy? Girly? Avant Garde?"

Now, name some designers that quickly come to mind. For edgy I see a rocker look, a bit tough like Saint Laurent. For girly I see Kate Spade or Leila Rose or something like that. For avant garde I see Japanese designers like Rei Kawabuko, Anne Demuelemeester or… yes, Rick Owens. Even though neither of these is technically avant garde. Anymore.

So because this is a fashion forum, I usually think of these terms in the mainstream, conventional fashion context. Not in the true sense of the word, but as the fashion world uses it. These are simply handles, a shorthand for describing a certain look. Does anyone else understand these words, in a fashion context, to mean something similar?

Hmmm… maybe I just needlessly re-opened the edgy can of worms when I should just leave them in peace!

… And using the reasoning above, the jacket would still be called "avant garde" as simply a style descriptor for a certain look, rather than where it stands on the trend bell curve as Lantana points out.

Two sides to this coin definitely!

Yep Denise, I agree. It's all about the denotation versus connotation of words.

Yeah, Denise - I think that was more or less what I was inarticulately thinking in the past....avant-garde was just a name to describe that particular aesthetic. Hmmm. Well. And now I don't know!

Interesting discussion.

Gaylene, you're right that people define style terms differently. There is no right and wrong here. Just different perceptions. Remember the "Edgy" thread? That prompted me to write a post on how I perceive the word Edgy. Others had a different perception. Here, I found myself nodding along to what Suz, Anna and Denise said, just because we define A-G similarly.

Like Edgy, Avant-Garde is on a continuum. You can be a little or a lot Avant-Garde.

Also, an ITEM can be Avant-Garde, or an outfit can be Avant-Garde because of the way more regular pieces have been combined to create a less regular visual.

And just to make things even more confusing, A-G style is usually Edgy. But not all Edgy style is A-G.

I agree 100% with Anna & would love to see her avant garde take on khakis & a navy blazer

FWIW Deborah, I don't see Odyssey's look as avant garde - edgy maybe but it is very common in parts of Europe (& Melbourne). It is also repetitive - not a bad thing in itself but not avant garde by virtue of the fact that avant garde by definition must always be changing..

Another question I ponder is - what's the difference between avant garde & costume?

Caro, yes I agree. Odyssey's style is not AG. I have clearly misused the term in that respect. Her style IMHO is a combination of a number of style elements. I suppose when I really think about it, I would describe her as dressing to a certain 'aesthetic. Does that sound reasonable?

I think the conclusion I am coming to is that:

1. Avant Garde is demonstrated best by the kind of designs that Anna linked
to. Almost pieces of art if you like. And perhaps not expected to be
worn as seen on the catwalk.

2. What I am actually referring to would more accurately be referred to as AG
influences or AG stylings, as opposed to actual AG garments.

3 And then there is styling an outfit in an AG manner. Say taking normal
everyday pieces but combining them and styling them in a way that is
fashion forward, unusual and unexpected?

I really appreciate this discussion. I not saying this is my final conclusion as I agree that these things are open to interpretation and perception and will always be quite fluid.

I agree Deborah I think Odyssey has a really clearly defined aesthetic.

With Anna's links I still have trouble seeing some of those pieces as avant garde - I think they were when Schiaparelli did them but not so much now - to me they are more costume & I believe avant garde is more than just costume.

I believe the last true avant garde push was in the 1980s. Japanese designers such as Issey Miyake, Rei Kawakubo and Yohji Yamamoto reshaped fashion literally - cuts changed, fabrics changed & the relationship of clothing to bodies changed. There have been other avant garde designers of course but not a "movement" imo. The other important thing to me is these designers brought fashion back to "art" & aesthetics. To an eastern one rather than a western one though.

Okay off the soapbox now - I find it all so fascinating

On a tangent. I think Viktor and Rolf used to be more avant garde. Their perfume, Flowerbomb was hugely panned by fashiony people because it was a very mainstream floral perfume and really not reflective of their design house.
I'm on call this holiday weekend and have been working too much to dig up better examples, those were the first houses that came to mind.

Also just to show that presentation is hugely impactful I give one of the most sublime moments in fashion, ever by the late great Alexander McQueen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cou04-vOZx8

Caro I like you on your soapbox! You know stuff!! I am encouraged to do some more research. I am familiar with these Japanese designers and particularly love the work of Yamamato but I need to take a good look at what they were doing in the 80's to get a better understanding.

Anna, that is a beautiful video. Mesmerizing. Now I need to find the fashion show it was part of and watch that.

I love that video Anna it's still stunning.

I'm coming late to this conversation, but I've enjoyed reading back through all the comments and I realize I was using the term avant-garde differently than many of you.

To me, avant-garde is almost particular phase in fashion, the one that a lot of you have described, Rei Kawakubo, Margiela, Demuelemeester, etc. Just like we use "modern" and postmodern" to refer to specific periods in literary / cultural history. So when I use the phrase, I often mean something reminds me of that particular aesthetic.

But that was without really thinking about it, and after reading all your comments, I realize that's definitely not the only way I use the term. I also think of design that's really pushing the limits of what is wearable or functional. So, even though there's no one correct definition, maybe I'll stop throwing around avant garde so casually about things that are practically a formula.

The question of what happens when the avant garde becomes mainstream... I was intrigued by the Margiela collaboration with H&M two years ago. The pieces they included were reissues of regular Margiela pieces from the past decade or more. So, first, is something still avant garde if you re-release it for a mass market? But on the other hand, if you look at the pieces, it's hard not to see a deconstructed jacket or a sideways dress as avant garde even if it's been done before. I'm curious if their sales met expectations. I was surprised they were selling such unusual things. (But for me it was perfect - even if I'm not avant garde enough to wear most of it.)