A&F: For 'cool kids' only - YouLookFab Forum

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A&F: For 'cool kids' only

ClaraT

Veteran

Boy, does this article make me mad. http://www.businessinsider.com.....z2SSY5zAd0

Apparently Abercromie & Fitch doesn't stock XL or XXL sizes in women's clothing because they don't want overweight women wearing their brand. CEO Mike Jeffries noted in an interview, "That’s why we hire good-looking people in our stores. Because good-looking people attract other good-looking people, and we want to market to cool, good-looking people. We don’t market to anyone other than that.”

If only I were a customer so I could boycott them...

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37 replies

Latest reply was from Echo

rachylou

Veteran

Oh, I don't know. I am very happy if people who think they are good looking and only want to talk to other people who think they are good looking go where I can't see them. Don't make me tell my worst-date ever story again... mwahaha!

If only they would go where I can't smell them too. A&F perfume should be classified as toxic waste...

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

Jezebel covered this recently. Unfortunately a LOT of designers don't above a size whatever because of their brand image.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

How do you feel about designers that only do certain clothing items in plus size, though?

I see a few cute dresses, but am bummed that they are only plus size - but I ration that it's because that style looks better on larger people, so that's why it's only plus size. To flip that coin - wouldn't it make sense that some styles just look better on smaller peeps?

pil

Veteran

Aren't they the stores with the ridiculously loud music? That alone would keep me out. I don't feel overly welcome in J Crew or Banana Republic stores either, despite fitting in their sizes.

ClaraT

Veteran

annagybe--I will check out the Jezebel coverage. Probably a lot more coherent than my annoyed rant. [Yes--West's piece is great, especially her closing.]

lyn--"To flip that coin - wouldn't it make sense that some styles just look better on smaller peeps?" I'm curious about what styles you think only look good on smaller people? I rarely (never?) think a particular style is better for a certain sized person. Some styles better suit a person with certain features (like a straight vs. curvy figure, for example). But there are curvy large people and curvy smaller people, and the same style looks good on both as far as I can tell. I have a niece that people stop in their tracks to look at because of her beauty--and she is not a small girl. I can't think of a single style that doesn't look amazing on her.

Not all companies make all clothes in all sizes. To me, the rationale matters. Saying that they won't make larger clothes because plus-sized women aren't attractive is unacceptable. By the way, A&F makes size XL *men's* clothes, so apparently larger men can be attractive and cool, it is only large women that are unacceptable.

I buy based on what fits me; I don't have a problem with a company that makes only plus (or smaller) clothes in theory. But I have a big problem supporting a company that is so blatantly sexist and discriminatory.

And rachylou--actually, I'm with you. Their fragrance kept me out of their stores long before this did!

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

Here's the article

http://jezebel.com/abercrombie.....-489583439

shoegirl

JFTR, as a thin-ish person (NOT thin like a MODEL -- just ordinary thin -- healthy weight), and short so an even smaller numerical size than I would be were I taller and similarly proportioned, I have had a LOT of outright hostility and equally unpleasant disapproval from larger salespeople telling me in no uncertain terms that no they do not stock my size on principle. Believe me, it goes both ways. Anyone short who isn't well into the heavier end of the alleged normal weight range has a miserable time trying to find current fashions.

Then there's the lack of clothing for those with a non-average shape. The woman in Zara positively bristled with disapproval when I asked if they have a smaller size than the very large waisted Zara Woman XS skort. Their skort is cut for rectangular- or apple-shaped women and when I told her it is about 4 inches too big at the top (though fine on the hips) she actually didn't believe me and said firmly "You don't need a smaller size" even though she had not seen it on me! So I am planning to take a photo of it on me before I have it altered to fit, and may well post in on the internet.

Why don't people get that XS on a short person is not the same as XS on a tall person?!

P.S. I have never shopped in A&F and nor would I, despite the fact that it sounds as though they might sell clothes that would fit me!

Janet

(website)

Veteran

What Rachylou said. Considering I have to hold my breath when I walk past their store, this just gives me one more reason to hate that brand.

ClaraT

Veteran

shoegirl, I sympathise with you as I am also quite small and some brands aren't sized for me (smallest size = too big). The article doesn't make me mad because I am personally affected by this policy, it angers me that this CEO/brand thinks it is acceptable to disparage women in this way.

I don't think every brand has to or will fit everyone. But I've never heard of a brand that doesn't make my ('fashionably small') size because they think that I am simply unacceptable and incapable of being cool enough to wear their clothes because I'm small. This is what A&F is saying to larger women (but not to men, natch).

Notably, >60% of the apparel purchasing market is plus-size according to the article, so it isn't really a niche market any more. The market may itself take care of this company in good time (the money of plus-sized women is worth the same as the money of non-plus-sized women last time I checked). A&F doesn't have the cachet among middle schoolers that it used to, and I hope that's a trend.

Gaylene

Veteran

Clara, you make a really good point that the offensiveness is not about a designer choosing to cut his/her clothing for a certain size range, nor for a store to limit the kinds of merchandise it chooses to sell. In my mind, those are perfectly legitimate choices; I might not agree with the choices, but I'm free to make my own decisions as to whether or not I'd like to buy from those designers or those shops.

But Jeffries' comment goes way beyond this. His comment boils down to choosing a marketing strategy that says "buying my clothes makes you part of the cool club because we'll make sure none of those non-cool, overweight people can get into our club". The underlying message in this marketing campaign is associating with a particular, identifiable group of people--in this case a female who wears a size 12 or above--"taints" you. That's the same message that has been used over and over throughout history to target people on racial, ethnic, and religious grounds when the intention is to marginalize sections of society. Jeffries' message becomes even more disturbing because it is directed at a young, impressionable market.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

What Janet, Anna and Rachy said.

(I have to hold my nose when I go into A&F too, and I LOVE perfume. But their spraying is excessive).

Most designers do not cover all sizes - 00 to 36 (US sizes). I'm not saying it's right at all. But you'll end up boycotting most brands if that criteria forms part of your shopping ethics.

rae

(website)

Veteran

The fallacy of their strategy is that it assumes everyone who is of a smaller size is attractive. I believe A&F also paid the Jersey Shore kids to stop wearing their stuff - so so much for attractive people attracting other attractive people... clearly they didn't find JS attractive. And they are surely missing out on gorgeous people of larger sizes.

It's a shame that lots of brands do this, but... hey, more love for the brands who don't follow this practice, right?

Echo

Veteran

No one is talking about boycotting any brand that doesn't cover all sizes. That would be ridiculous, and I don't think anyone expects any single store to carry sizes from 00 to 36, petites and talls. What people are upset about is the stated reason WHY they refuse to carry the sizes they exclude.

The idea that any woman, very large or very small or anywhere in between, ought to be shamed for her size is offensive. And the idea that only people of a certain size are "worth" being part of a brand's club, as if they would somehow contaminate the clothes or the brand's reputation, is absurd and patently offensive.

However, people need to keep in mind that A&F isn't alone in their thinking. Karl Lagerfeld has certainly made offensive comments regarding women and their sizes, and yet the demand for Chanel hasn't seemed to decline.

Gaylene

Veteran

Right on, Echo! I don't think Jeffries' comment would have upset so many people if he was just defending the right of designers, or stores, to choose a size range for their clothing.

What is offensive is Jeffries' promoting the idea to a young, susceptible audience that using physical characteristics to exclude a segment of the population is what makes his clothing "cooler" than his competitors. The unspoken assumption is that targeting, and excluding, others based on physical characteristics is an intrinsic aspect of being "cool".

A designer, or store, choosing to focus on a particular market segment is one thing, but deliberately insinuating to a impressionable audience that you ought to avoid even being in the presence of people who are not physically similar to yourself is a message that I find repulsive.

I'll hold my nose when I go by A&F but it won't be because of the perfume.

Irene

Veteran

I don't know the brand but I understand why they would target only a short range of sizes. And I also understand why they want to establish a specific target. It's called branding and marketing strategies.

HOWEVER, just because you don't make plus sizes it doesn't give you the right to say plus-sized people are not attractive and treat them like they are the pest. That is downright insulting.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

Well, I think some things just don't look that nice. In fact, if I see it on a "larger" person, I probably wouldn't buy it - but this is my opinion. For example, this is one of the dresses on Modcloth and is terribly adorable and would be something I would normally buy right away (#1)

This is one of the first reviews of it, who posted a picture of herself wearing the dress (#2). Even though she loves it and I'm glad of this, I don't think I see the dress in the same way afterwards.

Other reviewers also posted their pictures (#3 to 5) and they are a range of body shapes, but I don't find this detracts from my liking of the same dress.

I can't really explain it.

Sometimes when I see larger colleagues wear the same thing, I feel strongly in a negative manner and sometimes I donate them. Even if I have previously loved the garment.

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Isabel

Veteran

I don't have a problem with having a range of sizes...but I have a huge problem with the reasoning behind it. To say that only that range is "beautiful" or only that skinny blondes with big boobs are beautiful, is really awful and antiquated. Unfortunately, it is were teenage girls love to shop. And he is playing into their insecurities. That makes me mad as all get out too. It used to be that kids felt "cool" or "in" because of their clothes. NOw it defines their beauty too ? If anyone is ugly, it is that CEO.

Isabel

Veteran

I don't have a problem with having a range of sizes...but I have a huge problem with the reasoning behind it. To say that only that range is "beautiful" or only that skinny blondes with big boobs are beautiful, is really awful and antiquated. Unfortunately, it is were teenage girls love to shop. And he is playing into their insecurities. That makes me mad as all get out too. It used to be that kids felt "cool" or "in" because of their clothes. NOw it defines their beauty too ? If anyone is ugly, it is that CEO.

AJ

Veteran

Lyn*, I remember in the past that you mentioned you have "some body dysmorphic traits." Do you think that has to do with you wanting to get rid of a garment just because you saw it on a larger person?

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

@ AJ - Possibly. I talked to another one of my friends who was about my size, and she said she felt the same way - so I'm not sure if this is normal? Or just really weird? I think she might have the same type of body image issues I do, though, although I haven't talked to her about this.

I now generally avoid buying things available in larger sizes (Closet UK only makes up to a size 14 UK, sometimes a 16 UK - their smallest is an 8 UK, and I am generally a 10 or a 12) otherwise it gets pretty expensive if I want to get rid of things just because a larger person wore them.

Irene

Veteran

I wouldn't get rid of a garment I owned just because I saw it on someone larger (but never been there, so I can't be sure). It is true though that a piece of clothing doesn't favor everyone at equally.

This is one of the (many) reasons I am against school uniforms. It is bad enough that teenagers dress all the same per se (skinny jeans, tight tops) but at least there is a possibility to escape that and dress differently if you want to. However, if everybody is wearing the exact same set of blouse and skirt, it is hard to not notice that the girl next to you looks better than you in the skirt. That has to be harmful on a teenager.

Krista

Veteran

Interesting discussion here - thanks for starting this thread, Clara! I am with Gaylene 100% on this.

Lyn - just to clarify - if you and I buy the same shirt at Ricki's and you are wearing it in a S or XS and I am wearing it in an XL (my actual size), and you see me wearing the shirt, this might affect your opinion of your shirt and make you feel you need to get rid of it?

rachylou

Veteran

Um, lyn*, sweetie... that's weird. Hehe. But it is what it is... altho that is also some money down the drain. In any case, tho, things do look extraordinarily different on different people and I've noticed. My oldest, dearest friend is just a little bit of a thing, not even clearing 4'11". I'm seven inches taller than her. I could never in a million years be jealous of her because we are that different. If we wore the same thing - and I believe we have - you'd never know it was the same.

Seeing is one of the hardest things to do. I mean really seeing as things are, as opposed to how the brain forms the picture in your head.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

@ Krista - Yes; it has nothing to do with how the shirt looks on you, when I see it on me, I don't see it in the same way again ...

The latest thing this has happened for was a sheath dress with flowers on it - whenever I see the dress now, I don't actually see the flowers anymore, just the way it fit on that other lady (who was probably wearing about 2 sizes too small).

It's kind of weird, I guess.

Krista

Veteran

@Lyn - That's very interesting. As someone who purchases clothes from the XL and size 16 rack for a lot of things, I struggle a little with the idea that how I wear an item might affect your view of it for yourself - it's kind of hard to hear, if you know what I mean! But that's about me and I definitely appreciate the clarification. I don't want to hijack Clara's thread any further - we're all here for our own fashion journey and I think this thread has definitely helped me grow a little more. Cheers!

ClaraT

Veteran

Honestly, thanks everyone for the comments. It's so interesting to see the discussion wander from A&F's attitudes about us to our perceptions of ourselves.

Mochi

Veteran

That is so bizarre. Where does it stop? Are people going to ditch their jeans or oxfords because someone "less attractive" wore the same shoe style? I can't imagine myself feeling reflected in any way in someone else's choice of clothes. Particularly if they looked "bad" in a similar outfit, you'd think it would make the thinner or "prettier" person look that much better in contrast, no? Wow, it's hard to believe. SMH.

(I think all those women look cute in their modcloth dresses. Sorry they ruined it for you, though!)

velvetychocolate

Veteran

It makes sense that stores will only carry a certain range of sizes or selection of items. For instance - my family's business could sell all 27 versions of a particular tool, but they mainly just carry three of them. There's no way they'd want to buy every single style, and keep them all in inventory. Of course if someone wants a particular item, it can be brought in especially for that customer.

Fine. Makes perfect sense to me.

But I really dislike the way this company (A&F) has chosen to "explain" why they don't carry a wider range of sizes. I find it offensive, and it certainly does nothing to increase their "cool-ness" in my view. Geesh!

I suppose though, that perhaps this might be just a rather rude way of trying to generate attention/get media stories etc. ? Trouble is, this can really backfire on a company.

rachylou

Veteran

The subject of A&F really interests me because I'm so allergic to their perfume, which they spray so much of that it wafts three stories up into the parking lot. Not only can I not go into A&F itself, I also cannot park three stories above it.

That said, I have, of course, tried to go in and see what's what. I've done two run-throughs holding my breath (and then yes, had to throw up afterwards). As far as I could tell they sold wife beaters (yes, offensive term) and jeans. Everybody sells those. One must conclude the actual goods then don't matter. It's the gestalt of the tribal experience.

It's human nature to be tribal. I accept that until one tribe starts attacking another. I start getting suspicious when one tribe worries what I consider to be too much about what other tribes are doing, works too hard at widening the separation. That's the lead up to going Ruby Ridge (holing up with grenades in the woods and a cow for milk). Not that I think A&F'ers do more than hole up at Club Med in Cancun. But you know, fostering a culture of permissiveness there.

Anyways, the A&F tribe also interests me (from a big BIG distance)(haha, yes, that's an ironic joke) because I don't know how you can live with yourself and be that boring. I am going to tell my worst-date-ever story again now. That dude was an A&F'er. Hella good looking. And he was so dull I fell asleep in my chair, sitting up, in public, in a restaurant. I TIPPED OVER. He/we talked about his last girlfriend's boob job, motorboats, Jamaica, 5-year plans... I mean, what is there to say about that stuff?

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