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What would you do?

Aziraphale

Veteran

This is springing off Anne's off-topic post about how much housework to give her 11-year-old: http://youlookfab.com/welookfa.....1-year-old I'm struggling with this question myself. I feel that my 11-year-old daughter should do a few chores, but frankly, she doesn't have time.

I always swore I wouldn't be one of those mothers who overschedules her kids, but here we are. Up until this year, she had only two activities: violin and martial arts. That seemed reasonable. But in September she started middle school. Because she's doing late French immersion (her choice, not mine), her homework load suddenly went from nearly nothing to several hours a night (which seems ridiculous to me, but seems to be the trend where we live, even if you're taking the regular English stream). I guess learning a new language is a lot of work! And then she joined the school band (which I didn't discourage, because of its team-building aspect), but it starts at 7:30 in the morning two days a week. Urghhh.

Anyway, scroll forward to November, and my daughter was having weekly meltdowns because she couldn't keep up. 80% of her homework time was taken up by math. I was baffled, because she was getting an A in math (and always has). She seemed to be having no trouble with understanding the concepts -- fractions, decimals, negative numbers, geometry, whatever. Anyway, it transpired that she hadn't learned her times tables properly in elementary school. So she'd arrive at the right answer, but each question would take her forever.

She was resistant to the idea of learning from me (always has been!) so I enrolled her in Kumon. She wasn't very happy about it, but she can't deny that it's working. It's magic. (OK, not magic -- I'm pretty sure it works by repetition, but still). However, it involves a half hour of homework seven days a week, plus on two of the days you have to go to the Kumon centre. So now she has a half hour of violin practice a day, a half hour of Kumon a day, daily homework from school, martial arts twice a week, band two mornings a week, and a weekly violin lesson. It makes my head hurt thinking about it.

So, is it just me, or is this activity schedule ridiculous? I plan to pull her out of Kumon at the end of July, by the time she has got through division, so that will help. Does anyone else have school-aged kids with such a full schedule? How do you handle it? I wish there was more time for kids to just be kids. I remember having lots of time to hang out as a kid. The problem is, my daughter's friends are all in after-school activities, so it's not like she'd have anyone to hang out with.

Sorry, this is a long ramble, but it has been bothering me. If you read through to the end, thank you.

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22 replies

Latest reply was from anne

Anonymous

I feel your pain. And to be honest, yes, it does sound like an awful lot, if not too much. I think when they are presenting you with evidence that they are being overwhelmed (meltdowns etc) than we should listen to that and act accordingly. I went through this same scenario several years ago when my dd was that age, and piano lessons ended up being the thing that got cut. I was more gutted about that than she was, and although I felt that music was a critical and important language, something had to give. Needless to say, she lived And thrived. I admittedly didn't expect her (my only child, too) to do much around the house during those years (and still am guilty of not demanding an awful lot) because house work and chores were the least of my worries for something she needed to be doing. I went through the exact scenario of not having other kids for my dd to hang with after school either - everyone was scheduled to the max, but again, she lived. Sports took on a real role at the middle school level, and all the other stresses kind of took care of themselves, tutoring and math included.

The one take-away I have from those years is that what seemed so tumultuous and stressful ended up being just another stage of life and another stage of development. Things sorted themselves out. But yes, I agree that maybe she has too much going on, and our job as the parent is to put our virtual foot down and help them sort out which activities stay, and which just can't be accommodated right now. Tough to do, but necessary to help them stay happy.

rabbit

Veteran

I'm sure others with kids will have more insight, but I've been thinking about Anne's post and it really struck me that part of the generational difference in chore styles might be this, scheduled activities. I didn't have after school activities before high school sports, and neither did my friends. Swimming lessons took a few weeks here and there, piano lessons (before I quit) were once a week, I got a scholarship to do a Saturday morning art school thing, but otherwise there was homework -- which got progressively more intense in high school, chores (which didn't take long on weekdays), and a lot of amusing myself and my sister doing whatever, often while the parents were working late at night.

I don't remember ever being bored just hanging on my own, partly because I was an obsessive reader. I think so much depends on the kid, but my dad gave me really good life advice once that I often use. It was 'if you feel trapped and penned in from all sides, kick out a wall' -- something has to give when you are over-committed, and though it feels like it will be a big deal to ask for an extension or drop an activity, it usually works out for the best in the end. I also feel like parents shouldn't be running themselves ragged if the responsibility can be shared. What I learned to model from my mom was not so much what she did for me, but what she did for herself, how she lived her own life--which raising a family was part of, but not all of.

Aziraphale

Veteran

LisaP, excellent advice. The meltdowns have stopped, by the way -- although adding Kumon to the plate is what is tipping ME over the edge, I think my daughter feels like she has a handle on things. (For one thing, her school math homework is getting way faster). But only because she knows that (a) Kumon is helping, and (b) it is temporary. Once we drop that, she will have violin and martial arts -- i.e. one instrument and one sport. Doesn't seem unreasonable. The school band is an extension of violin, really (and I think half the fun of an instrument is being able to play with other people!). But the homework load is still huge, IMO, for a kid her age.

I guess I'll do what you did, and not expect my daughter to do many chores. I'd rather have her stay in martial arts and get a bit of exercise than clean the bathroom sinks!

Rabbit, also excellent advice. I like what you said about your mom modelling for you. I try to do that. My kids are important, but they are not my whole life. I'm taking a degree myself, because I want to. Also, I've been busy trying to support my dad -- my mom has been in and out of hospital lately, and has just been sent home on palliative care. Her mind is pretty much gone, and now her body is following suit. The doctors think maybe six months.

It's hard trying to juggle all the balls.

Sara L.

Veteran

I have school age kids that also have a lot of after school activities - archery club, homework, soccer practice, etc. I don't require many chores because I feel like they have enough to do. They do some small things that don't take much time like cleaning out the cat litter box, taking out the trash, and setting the table before dinner.

You may want to start with asking your daughter which activities, if any, that she would be willing to drop. Maybe she enjoys violin more than martial arts, or vice versa. Both of those activities seem like they could be dropped for now and then maybe picked back up when things get a little easier (such as when she finishes Kumon).

rachylou

Veteran

That does seem a lot to me...

Anonymous

Glad to hear some of it is easing up already. I have been at odds over the years with my husband regarding how much house work/chores etc my daughter should be doing. I figure she has her entire adult life to be vacuuming and cleaning the bathroom and other assorted horrible activities - and yes, I'll make sure she knows how to do them, but it's not that important to me that she does all this stuff while trying to manage school and sports. Yes, she cuts the lawn, cleans out the cat litter box, sets the table, empties the dishwasher, but not everyday. I've never understood the need to make kids deal with all of what we do too - they are CHILDREN. School is the most important thing right now, and it's their job. Their training.

Anyways, A, I am also dealing with an elderly and dependent parent, my own career, my young adult, my bank balance, and my marriage - and again, I hear you. These are stressful and trying years for us - and all we can do is keep putting one foot in front of the other, and trust in our abilities to make the best choices we can for our kids at the time. They, and we, will be fine

Gaylene

Veteran

Well, I've always operated on the idea that there is good stress and bad stress. Bad stress makes us feel helpless and overwhelmed leading to meltdowns, while good stress challenges and energizes us to achieve our goals. It's that confidence and sense of self worth we want to develop in our children which underlies our reasons for wanting them to participate in extracurricular activities.

I'd say that the Kumon lessons were a good way of showing your daughter how to handle the bad stress which led to the meltdowns--a strategy that will stand her in good stead when she is faced with future challenges. As for her other activities, if your daughter seems happy and able to cope with her current activities, I'd let her continue. If she gets overwhelmed, then you can step in again and help her strategize about how to adapt, disengage, or whatever to help her get back on track.

Helping your daughter understand bad stress and develop strategies for coping with it makes you a top-notch mom, in my books!

Aziraphale

Veteran

LisaP -- thanks again for the support. Somehow it helps to know that I'm not the only one. These are busy years.

Gaylene -- wise comments, as usual. It's exactly that: I like these extra-curricular activities because it's empowering to be able to do things. And it's true, rising to meet challenges develops self-esteem. It's just that I'm finding it hard, this year, to achieve balance! But thanks for the kind words.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

WOW. Your child is busy. I remember crying after my piano lesson one day - 10 years old - because I hated it so much. (And I do not use the word hate often at all). I loathed practicing and it was all too much. My Mama made me stop right away. I was a vey diligent student who also had horses. So spare time was about being at the stables, doing homework and going the extra mile, seeing friends, and going to extra Art classes in my final years at school. We also OF COURSE had to do chores at home. Life was very busy - but it was a different busy I guess. Things were freer back then somehow. Just as busy but less pressure, if that makes sense.

I have no words of wisdom Elisabeth, because I don't have kids. It must be SO hard to find the right balance. I wish you and your daughter luck.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Thanks for the support, Angie. I agree that there was less pressure back then. For me, things were definitely NOT as busy. I did piano and swim lessons (time-wise, equivalent to my daughter's violin and taekwondo), and occasionally other activities like softball or riding lessons, and I read a lot. But on the whole, there was a lot of hanging out with friends, impromptu backyard badminton games and wandering down the creek to look for frogs. Not so with this generation's kids.

You know what I think is the big difference? HOMEWORK. I rarely had more than a half hour's homework, at least until the last couple of years of high school. My daughter has two hours every night. What is up with that? It's just silly.

I'd be OK pulling her from violin if she wanted that, but she doesn't. There's a certain cachet to be able to play the violin, although I'm not sure why. I doubt she's ever be a professional musician, but she likes to think of herself as a violinist.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

That's a ton, Elisabeth, but it sounds as if both you and your daughter are more clear on your priorities now, and that is great. You've already had such wise counsel.

Like you, I sometimes wonder if I ought to be asking our daughter to do more in the way of housework. But truly -- there just isn't time. She has martial arts two nights a week and also volunteers to teach the younger children there, which means she can be gone from 5-9 pm (and once in a while on weekend test days or tournaments as well, or extra classes on a different week day.) Then she has tutoring for math once a week. She has a club meeting after school another day. Plus homework -- sometimes a lot of it. (She's in 10th grade). And she likes to spend a bit of time on her own creative pursuits -- drawing and writing -- yet this hardly ever happens during the school year.

Ensuring that she tidies her room, cleans her lunch dishes after school, helps with general tidying or yard jobs when needed, and helps with the occasional meal really seems like enough to me right now, given her temperament. (Intense, volatile, "artisitc.") If she were a different type of person I might choose a different route, but for now, giving her a bit of slack on the household chore department seems like the right choice.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Ah, Elisabeth. Swimming. I did a lot of that too - in Summer. And hockey after school in Winter (which I gave up at 14 because it was ALL about horses). I forgot about that.

Kids DO get a lot of homework these days - but I did too. Hours every night. I remember spending hours on Maths homework alone because it did not come naturally to me. I would after that - as a treat - spend hours on my art practical. Well into the night. I'm a busy bee though - always buzzing around and using up my energy.

OH YES. Frog catching. We did that too. And insect catching. High five. And rode our bikes and played treehouse until it was time for supper. That was at a younger age though (5 through 9 maybe). We were outside enjoying being kids. No tele or computers.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane, E. I'm sure your children - albeit busy - are having a great childhood.

rabbit

Veteran

That's a good point Angie. I also grew up without computers (or only for typing reports at my dad's office), no cell phones and almost no tv (we watched Star Trek and public broadcasting mainly, otherwise they put a tiny padlock through the plug when we were home alone -- low tech, but it worked). The clock can't be turned back, and I wouldn't want it to, but it's a different world and I think cultural ideas about time have changed because of all the multi-tasking.

claire

So here's my two cents, for what it's worth. My DS is ten going on eleven (grade 5 French immersion) and usually has about an hour of homework a night. He is also heavily into two sports, so he has at least one practice a night and sometimes two practices a night, with games every weekend. He also plays an instrument, but doesn't practice nearly as much as he should. And he attends religious/language class twice a week. We are BUSY. But, he loves it all (except the last one) and our only requirement is that he keeps his grades up and does it all with a smile.

We do have chore requirements but it's pretty minimal, take out the garbage when asked, set the table for dinner and make his bed in the morning. But above all else, when you're asked to pitch in, say sure and have a great attitude, and when his attitude is gone so are his sports. The way we see it is this is what he loves, so we'll support it rather than him sitting around on his duff, and most of his friends are just as busy too. But we still expect him to be
part of the family and above all be grateful for the privilege of being able to participate and be part of it all, and don't take it all for granted.

I think it's a bit of a different version of childhood than the carefree one some of us had. And I don't mind not loading him up with chores if he realizes and is grateful for the privileges he's getting, because he's loving his sports and for him, that's his fun. He also did some tutoring and he hated it, but it was short term and it helped and it did cut into our time for a while but it was worth it.
And if his math slips he will have to do it again so he works extra hard to keep
his math up and is being responsible about it.

So I guess my point is, you're not alone! You sound like an awesome mum who has a good handle on your kids needs and wants. My kid wants to busy, loves what he does and I support it as long as he's grateful for the privilege and has a great attitude. You sound like you're on track too

ETA: my DS just read this over my shoulder and told me to add, " it's not how much you do around the house, it's HOW you do it that matters". See, smart kid.

gradfashionista

(website)

Veteran

Tough call.
When I was in late elementary and high school, I was heavily involved in curricular activities, delivered newspapers, and had house chores on top of that. When reading that post, my first thought was that chores were too much on top of her schedule. Upon reflection, however, chores are one of the few tasks that we, as adults, can't abandon without serious ramification. No matter how tired or busy you are, you always need to make time to minimally cook, clean, shop, etc. I feel like that instilling that discipline early on is important, even at the expense of non-educational activities. Maybe reduce the chore list, and rotate it?

Anonymous

My DD is in college and graduating a semester early which is great. But let me tell you about prior to college.

Schools today are nuts. Plain and simple. They teach to the standardized test and nothing else. They demand too much homework on a daily basis and give tests on a weekly basis. My DD took piano and violin, participated in gymnastics. That came to an end by the time high school rolled around. In high school my DD was in all Honors courses and later took AP courses. She was also on the yearbook committee which was actually an elective course she took in senior year that demanded 2 to 3 hours after school most days of the week mostly because her "tenured" teacher was totally incompetent and could not give proper direction. They were understaffed with about 10 people working on the yearbook whereas in years past there were at least 20 students. She would get to bed by midnight and be up at 6 am. Many of her friends who were in sports got by on less than 4 hours of sleep at night.

By the time she got to college I was worried, especially being away from home and having to do things on her own. She is a math and physics major and told me that college is easier than high school. The material is more difficult, but the demands on her time are less. She has time to clean the apartment, cook, do laundry, go to the movies,etc. while maintaining an A average.

She had friends in school that had meltdowns in the classroom which my husband and I never witnessed when we went to school.

I never enforced chores on my daughter because I realized how much pressure she had in middle school and high school. I even drove her to high school so she could get an extra hour if sleep. Bus pickup was at 6:20am and classes began at 7:30 am. With her after school activities she would get home around 5:30 and would pick her up since the late bus would drop her off around 6pm. School was only 5 miles away.

In college she does chores that she divides up with her roommates. Now when she is home she does laundry, dishes, cleans her bathroom, takes the trash out without being asked. So in time they do know that chores are a reality. But I did not see the sense in enforcing it earlier because I do not believe it would not have had an impact on anything. It would just have added to the pressure.

annabelle

Veteran

I really appreciate this thread. I feel like I'm surrounded by fantastic parents who enjoy each other and support each other, and respectful and hard working children who will grow up respecting balance and the care we've put in to considering these choices. I have two kids; they work harder at school than I do at owning my own business and running a household! It's tough being a kid, and I'm relishing all these highly caring and nurturing comments that reflect how genuinely this group loves its little (and medium) ones. What a community!

Mary Beth (formerly LBD)

(website)

Veteran

I don't know that it is a generational thing - because that schedule was my schedule from the time I was 12-years old, until I graduated high school. I looooved my extracurricular activities (which included hours of band and piano practice, and AP classes), and yes, I had a LOT of meltdowns. My poor mom, because I refused to give anything up. I must have been a joy to live with.

Last fall, I came across Cal Newport, and I wish he had been writing books when I was in high school! Newport is an assistant professor in computer science at GSU, and he has written several books about study habits and what he calls 'study hacks'. One of his books is geared towards high school kids, but I don't see why some of the concepts couldn't be applied to an 11-year old who is undertaking a heavier workload.

They must work, because he was able to maintain a good GPA in graduate school, without studying round the clock. I've only read his book 'So Good, They Can't Ignore You", and I found it to be an excellent book. So good, I'm reading it a second time as of this writing.

Traci

Veteran

One suggestion is to talk to your child's teachers about how much time they are expecting her homework to take. I found our kids' teachers to have a set idea of how much time they should be spending, and willing to make some adjustments when they heard it was taking exceptionally longer and ending in tears.

I also found with both my kids that around age 11 was the absolute worst homework wise. I now have one in highschool and one in 7th grade and they have both found their own grooves and organizational styles and no longer stress every night on homework, although they do homework every night. 6th grade seems to be a huge transitional period in education.

High school has it's tough moments where we are trying to juggle clubs and activities (some of them are like a part time job!) school work, a job, time with friends and family time, but I notice the commitments are much more seasonal, rather than all school year long, so there's always a light at the end of the tunnel. Our high school has 2 study halls per day worked into the schedules, so that takes a huge load off on the homework. I didn't have that growing up.

The hardest lesson for my daughter has been that sometimes you have to give up the obligation you enjoy most for an obligation that has more value. When we look at her to do list, of course she wants to cut our chores and her job. I've realized I'd most love a schedule that puts me on vacation 1 week of every 4, but that's not really how real life works. I also remind her that if she really hates housework and the minimum wage job market, that's all the more reason she needs to focus on her school work and marketable skills now, so that she can have a successful career that allows her to hire help and do work that fills her up.

Times of struggle and challenge are when we learn the most about ourselves. I encourage my kids to keep adding to their plates until they can't do anymore and then figure out what to eliminate. I think adolescence is a great time to learn where the end of your rope is, while you still have a gazillion safety nets around you.

Joy

Veteran

I'm coming to this late, but as a former upper elementary school teacher, there is nothing academic as important as knowing your multiplication tables backward and forwards. I liked plain old flash cards. Consistently doing a drill once or twice an evening doesn't take much time or money and probably should be started in third grade or whenever they are taught now.
My theory is that math concepts are being taught earlier and earlier and are being rushed so that they are not really learned well before going on to the next thing
I teach 9-13 year olds religion. It meets at 4:30-6:30 after school. Most have already had a music or dance lesson before they come and are picked up to be whisked off to basketball practice or something. They have no time to even eat. Homework is a real problem, so they don't get enough sleep. Weekends are filled with athletic games and usually a sleepover party where no one sleeps. With our own sons we made dinner together a priority. We eliminated scouts, school year sports, and did not allow them to "sleepover". If it was a birthday or something, they could go but we would pick them up at 11pm. This worked out well and made weekends more pleasant. These decisions may seem extreme. Many especially did not understand the sports ban, but it was mostly basketball and both were going to be short and were not natural athletes anyway. They still had school gym classes.
Good luck and don't be afraid to make some hard decisions. We also always told them to blame us, their parents, if their friends gave them a hard time. That we didn't mind.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response, Lara. It's nice to hear that university is actually easier than high school for your daughter (or maybe not? Maybe it just shows how out-of-whack the school system is. Are you American? We're Canadian, and we don't have the intense competition to get into Ivy League schools here because we don't have such a thing. I'm not sure if our high school situation is as crazy as the states, but we'll see in a few years, I guess). I'm currently at university right now and I'm finding my workload heavy, but manageable. But now that I think about it, I'm not sure if I'm working harder than my 11-year-old! (What you describe regarding high school is insane. Holy moly. 4 hours of sleep is not reasonable for a growing teenager!).

Thanks for the therapy, Annabelle.

Demimondaine, thank you for the link to Cal Newport. I read few a few of his blog posts with interest. I'll check him out next time I'm at a bookstore or the library. His insights are as likely to help me as my daughter, truth be told!

Traci, I've already done exactly what you suggested! Before Christmas, I talked to her teacher about the hours of math, and the teacher cut the number of homework questions she had to complete by two thirds. She was still able to ace the tests, so it was all good. I also let the teacher know we'd signed her up for Kumon to improve her speed. But yes, I found her teacher very reasonable and accommodating.

Also, your comment "I also remind her that if she really hates housework and the minimum wage job market, that's all the more reason she needs to focus on her school work and marketable skills now" -- YES!!! exactly. Also very wise advice about testing your limits while you still have safety nets around you.

Joy, I fully agree with this comment: "My theory is that math concepts are being taught earlier and earlier and are being rushed so that they are not really learned well before going on to the next thing". That's what I told the teacher, the school principal, the Kumon coordinator, and any other parent who will listen. They're not spending enough time on the basics. This is true for reading, too. (I don't agree with not letting kids go to sleepovers, though. To each their own!). And much as I'd love to make family dinners a priority, we can't. We'll never be able to. My husband's workday is always going to be 11 or 12 hours.

anne

Veteran

Well, I found this thread pretty shocking!! Especially what Lara said! I felt like half of you reading my other thread must be thinking that my daughter doesn't do nearly ENOUGH!
There's no way I could compare our two daughter's workloads Arizaphale, and in your situation I wouldn't be pushing housework either. Maybe get her to do something in the school breaks.
I have to say the whole idea of your extra curricular stuff counting for university entrance is quite foreign here in Australia and I am glad of it. Of course kids do stuff and it can be good for their resume and for its intrinsic value, but for university entrance it is all about your academic marks. I think the feeling that the workload is less at uni than the last 2 years of high school is still the same here though - I certainly felt that.
I kind of agree with Joy on sleepovers. I have let my daughter go to most she has been invited to, which hasn't been any except two school class one since we moved, but she knows I won't automatically say yes to them and I will sometimes do the "pick up at night" option. The fact that she seems to get sick and need a day off at school after even a one night school camp, and finds it hard in general to catch up on sleep, backs up my feelings.

Off to get back to my thread...