"Heck, people are freely discouraged from keeping big dogs in small apartments, right? So where's the harm in discouraging people from having children when they are ill-prepared to do so? "

That's such a GREAT point Una. I wish I had written that! But I often think that. People think so much before they take the responsibility of a pet....why not a kid? The laxed attitude ppl have about having kids really bugs me.

In my own friend circle, almost 50% were not emotionally or financially ready for the kid. They just think " it'll happen. Everyone does it". Why not be prepared? You're making a life changing decision!

Not only that, but people here go through a grueling process to adopt, while anyone who can crank out a kid is free to do so. My friend who adopted from India went through a year and a half of expenses, inspection, a court process, etc. Meanwhile we were practically painting the baby's room while I was in labor! And let me tell you, we wanted my boy with all our hearts, and it still takes everything I've got to be the mother I want to be.

Do your thing and don't blame people for what their opinions are.... we all have them... we're all entitled to our own... they have theirs... you have yours... as long as you are sure about your decision, what anyone else says or does shouldn't bother you.
Peace!

Wow! How much fun and fascinating to have sisters on the forum. Love that you are so open and close! (See what I did there?)

Yep, I agree with all of the excellent advice that you simply must do your own thing - you only have one life, so you should use it as you want!
That said, I wonder if the pressure isn't sometimes coming from a place of care and love. Of course people should mind their own business! But many people also experience parenting as one of the greatest parts of their life, and so they don't want you to "miss out".
I have always been a career girl, and still am. My DH however adores children and family, so I did always know we would have kids (we met when I was 15, so I had a while to work all of this out!).
But I guess I was unprepared for the whole wonder of my son, and how much I fell in love with him, really the instant he was born. It still astonishes me.
So while people are intrusive and horrible, sometimes they can just be wanting to make sure you are sure, and wanting to share the joy they have had as parents . That said, I don't understand why women are such public property around reproduction. I only stopped getting questions about a second child after I had a hysterectomy in my mid 30s - that shut it down I guess!

But best of luck with travelling your own path

@Lucy: I could realllly give you a big hug if I could this very minute.... for you've said EXACTLY what I've always felt, especially when it comes to our parents (be that ours or our in-laws) raising this topic with Maneera and me.

I'll be honest there are times when it gets on my nerves, but deep down I KNOW for a fact that it's all coming from a good place in their heart. My husband never pressurise me or pushes this topic, but he's always told me one thing that has stayed with me - that there's a right time and moment for everything and I believe that's true for planning a family too.

I don't want a baby at this moment in my life because I want a certain KIND OF LIFE for my child and we're still working towards that, but I know for sure that that's something I definitely want to share with my partner and my parents... a part of both of us that's going to be so much bigger than the two of us will ever be as a couple, if that makes any sense...

I know that for our parents Maneera & I are the world, their lifeline to be exact and maybe that's all they want for us as well... maybe to reach that age & stage and have your flesh & blood with your knowing there's always 'family' around.

Well if you are very brazen you could say you are for zero population growth. But that will probably go over like a lead balloon.

What irks me, and Gaylene you seemed to say this, is that you cannot have the full experience of being human unless you procreate.

Whoa, Anna, that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of my position. If you read my first sentence:

"I think it's a person's choice to have, or not have, a child. End of the discussion. Subject is Closed. Opinions not welcomed"

If you are referring to my position that having a child is not the same as owing a pet, it is a rather tall extrapolation to read into that that I would think that being human means procreating. I love my husband, but don't think marriage is necessary to feel fully human. I love my pets, but don't think owning a pet is a requirement for being a fully actualized human being, nor having siblings, or anything else we pack into our lives. All I'm saying is the experiences are different.

I really don't mind having my opinions challenged, but I do object to having them misinterpreted and then using the misinterpretation to attack my position. You can do better.

I saw your first statement and agree it is entirely a person decision to have or not have children.
This is what you said

"I've never felt as scared and helpless with a pup as I did when I
brought my babies home. Feeling responsible for a helpless human being
is a hugely sobering experience--wonderful and terrifying at the same
time. Someone once described parenthood as having your heart, vulnerable
and unprotected, walking around in a hostile world--and not being able
to do a %#* thing about it. Pretty good description so I totally get why someone would choose not to experience it.
"

You called it "sobering experience". The way you describe it, that level of responsibility is only achievable in having a child. That is how I read it.

There are so many ways in which a person can bear a huge burden of responsibility -- many of them just as significant as raising a child. I'm thinking of the medical professionals and law enforcement officers I know, the people working for very little reward to rescue broken communities, people who are caring for siblings and other family members who are unable to care for themselves, etc.

And that's not to say that any other profession, lifestyle, or occupation is "lesser" than those who carry those huge burdens. Heck, I'm just an artist. We are all worthwhile and worthy.

Hugely sobering experiences come in all sizes and varieties. Caring for someone through a lengthy illness, surviving in a war zone or through a famine, or personally experiencing a serious illness would also be "hugely sobering" experiences, but I'd hardly recommend that they all need to be experienced to be fully human.

Honestly, Anna, I can't think of how to put it any plainer, but here goes: Choosing to have children is a personal decision. Having a child, or not having one, does not affect one's ability to have a fulfilling life, or to experience the full range of human emotions. Life experiences can be profound, but that doesn't mean they are all equivilent to each other. Caring for my mother in the final stages of dementia was a sobering, highly emotional, responsibility, but I'd never dream of equating my experience with her with the care we gave our pets in their final years. Both were terrible experiences full of emotion, but they were not the same.

And, I'll conclude by saying, no woman ought to have a child that she does not want. My cohort in the 70s fought long and hard for a woman to have full control over her body--and that included her right to choose, or not choose, to bear a child. Her body, her choice.

This is way off the original question of Maneera's.

See point 5, first sentence. This is Indian and Tibetan Buddhism
http://plato.stanford.edu/entr.....sm/#AniEnv

And yes later it does say it worse to kill a human than an animal.

What I'm trying to say is just because you felt that the responsibility of a child was greater than a puppy. Not all will see what you see.
Even in the west, especially in generations younger than you Gaylene feel that their pets are their children. I see this in many of friends and cultural as a whole.
http://guardianlv.com/2014/02/.....-children/
Another example is animal rescue and fostering. You take in a living being, only to send it out into the world again.
Though the current pope disagrees.
ETA I just saw your response. It looks to be a difference in thinking in generations.

What does pope Francis say?

Sometimes I think a dog is harder because it's always basically a two- year old...

I'm bowing out of the conversation.
"You can do better." I'm not an undergraduate in one of your classes.

Leave it to RL to add some well needed humor to the conversation

I'm super late to this discussion, because I haven't been on YLF for two weeks, but here's my two cents. Whenever people criticize the choices of others, it always strikes me as a demonstration of insecurity. If you are confident about, and happy with, your own choices, you don't feel compelled to criticize other people. End of story.

A couple of other points, thought. People who have children may indeed have those children for comfort and support in their old age. Ask me. I'm there for my dad through my mom's long illness. Having kids isn't a guarantee against loneliness or abandonment (who knows? Your kids might disappear halfway across the globe, and that's their right and their choice), but if you do have children, the possibility of a relationship with them exists. You can't get companionship or support from kids you don't have. When all your friends are old or dead, children and grandchildren might bring you joy. Or maybe not. *shrug* I don't have a crystal ball.

Having said that, aging parents have a responsibility to engage in social activity that doesn't directly involve their children. Their kids have their own lives and responsibilities. Parents also have a responsibility to plan for their own care, if possible. No one wants to be a burden, and no one wants to be an involuntary caregiver. (Emphasis on 'involuntary'. Lots of people gladly choose to be a caregiver to an ailing parent. But it shouldn't be compulsory).

I also know that sometimes having children seems worse than not. Nothing is more excruciating than watching a child struggle, for ANY reason, and not being able to 'fix it'. There have been times when I've wondered if I could have protected my heart by not having children.

I appreciate that choosing to be childless in India is tougher than here. Well done for holding strong. (Maybe you could plead infertility, and fake a tear or two. That tends to shut people up, lol). I think women get more flak for it than men, as if choosing a life without children is somehow aberrant. This irritates me.

Bottom line: choosing to be childless (child free, if you prefer) is fine. Choosing to have children is also fine, provided you're going to try to be a good parent and you don't have more kids than you can afford. I wish people wouldn't get their panties in a bunch about it. You are under no obligation to provide grandchildren for your mother-in-law. Tell her to volunteer at a shelter, or do something else useful that involves needy children.

"Why do people judge me?" Well, because you've been forthright about choosing to do something for selfish reasons. If you kept it to yourself, obfuscate when people query why you aren't pregnant, you wouldn't get so much blowback. You're obviously free to be self-centered, but people don't generally applaud them.

Thirkellgirl, why is choosing childlessness a self-centred choice? I don't think there's anything wrong with the reasons Maneera gave.

Maybe that's the crux of the matter. There is a tendency to judge childless women as being shamefully self-centred (if they chose it) or desperately unfortunate (if they are infertile). Don't you think this is a bit unfair, though? For one thing, we don't seem to judge bachelors quite so harshly. It reminds me of the antiquated, biblical view of a woman's place in the world, where she is effectively reduced to her childbearing and rearing capacity. ('A woman's place is in the home' -- ha). If we're going to label childlessness as selfish, then women have as much right to it as men.

But let's say it's not selfish. Let's say some women, like Maneera, are simply not maternal. Why on Earth would we shame someone who doesn't she want kids? Why wouldn't we applaud her instead, as someone who has examined her life? Too many people live an unexamined life, and made stupid non-choices. Having children can sometimes be a kind of non-choice -- people do it because or everyone else is doing it, and there's some kind of vague expectation that it's the next step. Some of these people make terrible parents. Someone who knows, in advance, that she doesn't want to be a mother is doing the sensible thing by going childless. There should be no reluctant parents, and no unwanted babies.

Also, why should she lie? I joked about faking infertility to get people off her back (embarrassing nosy people tends to work), but clearly it's too late for that. Telling people that you're not having kids because you don't want them is a perfectly valid choice. People contribute to society in myriad ways. The production of a family is not the only form of production in this modern world.

She said "I decided early on in my life that I wanted to live for myself." That's certainly, certainly her choice to make, but if *that's not self-centered, the term is meaningless. Being up-front about wanting to live for herself is why people judge her. If you don't want people to judge you, then obfuscate when asked about the issue.

Ah, I get that Thirkellgirl. Point taken. I also really appreciate your perspective, Aziraphale. Thank you very much.

I am not the kind of person who wouldn't be forthright about my real reasons for anything. Maybe that right there needs a bit of tweaking! Hahaha. I always say exactly what's on my mind....all the time....

However, I want to clarify that the 'people' I mention are family and close friends. Not random people. I don't try to explain my life choices to everyone. Also, I would never dream of pleading infertility. My parents are doctors and so are most relatives and my parents' friends. And honestly, if you don't plead infertility and don't give your real reasons for not having kids, what do you say when an aged aunt/uncle asks you 'Why don't you want/have kids after 8 years of marriage?'

Thankfully, I don't meet such people very often. I choose to socialize only with close friends who know me very well and know that I'm not self-centered; just very sure of what I want with my life and very responsible about all my life choices.

A person could argue that having children is self centered.

Maneera, you look pretty young, another option, unless you feel compelled to crusade, might be to be a little vague? As in...
" We haven't had children yet because we're really enjoying our lives together, I guess we'll see how that works out? It's thoughtful of you to express concern, I agree this is an important topic but I really don't have anything to add to what I've already said, and I'd rather we move on to a different topic?"

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