Good thoughts here - and I'm not sure if a judge or clerk with shocking purple hair or visible tattoos or piercings would instill a sense of calm for me in a court situation, but I know I'd just have to accept it and get on with things.

And for clarity, the woman works in retail (not grocery) - she sells jewelry. A very up close and personal kind of sale typically. And it's not that I don't think she is fashionable - most people I know are not - it's that I don't think she is keeping herself clean or neat in any way, and I think she used to. People can keep their fingernails clean, their teeth brushed (even if they are discolored) and their hair at least somewhat groomed with very little effort - IF they desire. My question was what happens to so many people that they lose the desire? Giving up on what? Their old life? Their old vision of attractiveness? I'm just hoping I never feel that way and if I do, I certainly hope a good friend will tell me. In this case, she is not a close friend so I will just wonder from a distance.

Well, I think basic personal grooming--washing your face and hands, brushing your hair and teeth, and keeping nails cleaned--is a civilized minimum, and I'd extend that even to backcountry hiking and camping. Personal grooming standards might differ in the backcountry, but even there they don't disappear entirely if you are in contact with other people.

Una's question about professional settings is interesting. I've always felt maintaining a distinction between my professional role and my personal life was a good thing. The two can overlap to some degree, but I saw my obligations, responsibilities, and interactions as a teacher quite differently than those of a wife and mother. Professional dress helped put me in the right mindset and made it easier for colleagues and students to concentrate on the matters at hand, particularly if the issue was sensitive or private. My professional "mask" kept the required distance so both parties could do and say whatever was necessary.

And that, to me, is what Texstyle's acquaintance seems to not understand. Her personal grooming standards are putting her at odds with the expectations of her clients. If Angie showed up up to the first meeting with a potential client in a disheveled state, her client would likely have a hard time discerning the value of Angie's advice. If I need to discuss a sensitive matter, I'm uncomfortable when my lawyer is dressed like a member of the cleaning staff. And buying jewelry from a sales rep who looks like she needs soap and a hairbrush raises alarm bells. Professional dress, to me, isn't about dressing up as much as it is about helping people see you in your role as someone who is able to understand and meet their needs.

I'm thinking of two quotes by fashion men whom I adore. One is Clinton Kelly's oft-quoted (by me) line: "The way you dress tells the world how you expect to be treated."

The other is Tim Gunn's: "If you want to dress to feel as though you never got out of bed, then don't get out of bed."

I have watched enough fashion makeover shows to know that sometimes people (and yes, those people are almost always women) go into "I give up" mode as a way of saying, "I understand that I am [old, overweight, plagued by a skin condition, whatever] and I no longer have any delusions about how attractive I am. I dress -- and groom -- myself this way so that you understand that I get it."

It's a little like what my grandmother used to call, "Having ideas above your station." Don't dress like you think you're attractive, in case someone else points out that you're not. Don't think well enough of yourself to present a polished appearance, because your raw material is nothing special.

Terrible, isn't it? And yet, so common. I have been watching Clinton Kelly's new makeover show, "Love at First Swipe" and it's the same story. The women are all saying that they dress the way they dress because they "know" (think) they don't look as good as they once did, and they don't want anyone to think they don't realize that.

April - I think your post is spot-on, and is giving me a lot to think about.

Very well written, April. Very sad, but I believe you are right. Plus, many women are overworked, exhausted and stretched thin with responsibility.
This may not be the case in Texstyle's example but it is in many others.

April - yes, I think this is pretty spot on with women and also with men, though maybe not to quite the same degree as societal pressures are less on men. The women in my example does seem stressed, though she still finds more time than me to take vacations. She has one teenage daughter in high school. She is married and her husband works but also does not seem to take care of his appearance at all. So I guess they both just gave up on that part of life.

I went to a meeting yesterday (at a middle school we're considering for DS) and was noticing just how casual and "carelessly" people were dressed. Unironic normcore is the order of the day for my environment, and it really makes sense for functional reasons - it's a cold, harsh, messy, snowy, muddy, slushy wet world out there!

April, astute and insightful thoughts.

My mother and sisters never gave up, and neither am I. It's a mindset, you know?

I wonder if part of it is people sort of start out dressing for others. Like, you dress to fit in at school, dress to get a date, dress to get a job. Then people feel they've made it to a certain point and are 'done.' I just remember the old days when people got married and got fat, lol, but true. If a husband was too skinny, the wife wasn't feeding him enough. If the wife was too slim herself, all the worse: Definitely not paying attention to her wifely duties...

Could this possibly be related to Angie's post about becoming simply used to comfort? On this board, and in this community, I think she was right to challenge that way of thinking -- because we do all care about how we look or we wouldn't be here.

But surely not everyone feels that way. Couldn't some people just simply be choosing an extreme life of comfort over everything else? Now, that may be out of depression, as a way of isolating. Or it may be because they just want comfort more than they want anything else, and they don't care enough about aesthetics to look for visually appealing comfort. I don't know, for some people, I really think clothes is clothes. Like for some people, food is fuel. Nothing to get excited about.

Viva, very true. I am completely unable to comprehend people who eat out of necessity alone, but I do know a few folks like that. I imagine this could be similar with clothes. It's definitely true when you live in a cabin - you put on what allows you to stay warm while chopping wood.

We had a discussion a while back about intentionality when I posted about a woman wearing baggy jeans in front of me in line, and I was wearing boyfriend jeans, trying to figure out whether to an objective eye the two of us looked the same.

Another interesting conversation among my friends is whether we'd behave differently alone on a deserted island. Some of us would still be organizing seashells and weaving tailored blazers out of palm leaves, while others (like me) would simply lie around drinking coconuts. I bring this up because I love to think about how our behavior is influenced by how much we care about the perceptions of others, as opposed to our own internal compass.

I was pondering this the other day. I don't know anyone who has given up on personal grooming to the extent where they don't wash. I know people that don't worry about their style and look like they've given up. I've had moments like this when it all seemed too hard..after having my baby I had put on a lot of weight and hadn't done my hair. When I went back to work I felt I had to make an effort and I came on this site looking for ideas. I also think there is a lot of disdain for thinking about fashion and clothes. There is a woman i know who makes no effort to dress what so ever. She obviously struggles with her weight and works so hard she doesn't take care of herself. I feel abit sad about the whole thing.

Una - I think if I were in a cabin about to chop wood I'd still fret over which flannel plaid and which jeans to wear lol :-).

A lot of my dressing is motivated by meeting other people. I think if I was in a cabin and on my own, I'd probably let my standards drop.

I certainly do care because I know a lot of people and never know who I'm going to run into when I'm out and about. I also want to look good for my DH, and above all to feel good about myself.

There are a lot of different aspects to the initial post. I am explaining, not defending, in response to texstyle's post. I am not saying this is what I believe/how I think things should be.

1. Why do some people 40-60 give up?
For some people, like me, dressing well is not something they grew up with. It might not have been done, it might not have been valued, or they weren't taught how to do it. Adapting to a post childbearing body can be challenging. And if you are staying home with kids and not bringing in income, it can be hard to spend the money and the time. And if you don't go anywhere, why bother? Also, if it feels hopeless, why bother. And if you have a weight problem it can be daunting to find clothes that fit. So, while I made sure my clothes and I were clean, there really wasn't any style for many years. Depression can certainly be a factor.

2. Why be proud of it?
It can be an expression of values. Some people think it is shallow to spend time and money shopping. It can also be defiance-since I can't make the standard, fit in, look good, why try? And I'll make sure you know I don't care so you can't hurt my feelings.

3. Should you say something?
It is hard in situations where if you don't say anything it seems like you are agreeing. With the woman who seemed proud of rolling out of bed and going, the most I would have said would be similar to ClaraT's first sentence. Something like, oh, it may not seem fair, but I am treated better when I dress nicely. Or maybe just, oh, that's an interesting choice.

As far as a close friend, if I saw a change I might have a private conversation and say I noticed you don't look like yourself. I'm worried about you. How are you doing? But when you are in it, it is hard to realize that you have a problem.

4. For people who grew up without a certain standard of self care, validation of looks, knowledge, etc. it can be hard to understand how challenging, how much energy it can take, to look nice. And how hard it can be to spend the money.

I've always wondered why some people think it's superficial to want to dress nicely. I don't get it.