Good fit and attention to detail can elevate casual to the point where one could be asked 'going somewhere?'

Alaskagirl -- I think our culture is going under. It's sad that people are being made to feel ashamed because they make the effort.
Runcarla I completely agree! If your clothes fit well some how you're going somewhere.

For me, personally, casual is in-between the loungewear of jogging pants, sweatshirts and yoga pants I wear at home to relax in - which I feel sloppy, yet comfortable in - and the smart casual look as defined by Angie here:
http://youlookfab.com/2006/09/.....or-ladies/. Angie's post is what I was using to define my idea of a casual capsule vs. a smart casual capsule.

There is a place in my life for something in-between and that's why I referred to it as casual. It is defined by the items I outlined in the original post - casual pants, flats, casual tops like graphic t's and casual toppers - but it is not "gear." To me, gear is what you wear when you want to go rock-climbing or hiking. I also find myself in an urban, youthful environment outside of work and home. Upon further reflection since I posted the thread, I think it had a lot to do with the fact that I was trying to achieve a casual look with just two pairs of jeans and 2 or 3 casual tops. Virtually impossible and constant frustration, given my lifestyle.

I also find it very difficult to be casual because of the shape of my figure. I'm very curvy and a lot of casual styles don't look good on me which is why I have defaulted to "smart casual" for so long. But flared jeans, a nice top and heeled boots get old and I needed something in-between. I'm determined to find casual looks that work for me and my figure.

Finally, I wanted to clarify some mis-interpretation that played out in the comments on my thread. Several people interpreted my pictures of the outfits as "dressier" than their interpretation of what casual dressing is - and I couldn't agree more. However, I came home with over 12 items of clothing and I wanted to minimize the number of pictures in one thread. So I paired items together to show them, but not necessarily in the way that I would wear them casually. I did mention that that they were somewhat unstyled, but it was a long post with a lot of information, so perhaps people had missed that.

I wasn't really anticipating so much discussion on this topic?! I just wanted some pants and some tops - honestly!

@Rachylou, I was ROFL. I kept thinking "and the churchin' of wimen."

I'm fancy people. I always have been. My family, not so much. I'm grateful, though, because it reminds me often of the power of dressing well. It also keeps me attuned to the message that clothing sends.

I mentioned in Krista's original post that I have a small capsule of very casual items. I wear them when I know that people will be intimidated by me. It is a weird thing, to write that. I'm not an intimidating person, but sometimes people who don't know me only see me as what I do professionally (lawyer) and it makes them feel uncomfortable. If I added to that my typical professional dress or even smart casual outfits, they wouldn't ever feel comfortable. I'm just a girl who grew up on a small farm in the not so swanky outlying area of a small city. My mom worked pretty typical office support jobs. My dad was a sheet metal worker. Most of the time, I can relate to them and their lives a lot better than they would ever guess, but if the barrier of their expectations makes them unable to see that, then we both miss out because they won't open up to me and I won't have the chance to get to know them.

So, I have my very casual capsule. I still look put together, but I wear things that are approachable: a lightweight Columbia jacket, or a suede coat, or a jean jacket. Jeans or plain shorts. Plain flats or simple boots. A basic tee or a button down in a simple pattern with the sleeves rolled. Nothing so fashion forward that you wouldn't see it at the Gap. Having that capsule lets me shed the skin of their expectations and get to know them.

I guess that at the end of the day, for me, casual is a range of looks. You might have your MOTG looks. You have your office looks and interview looks and important meeting looks. You need casual looks too that run the gamut from smart casual to super casual, but feel like you. Casual is hard to pin down because it has such a range. I think that is part of the brilliance of the idea of identifying what you do in your life, what kind of events you really attend outside your fantasy life, and planning outfits for them.

Krista, I hope my starting the thread has not bothered you. And I understood that you hadn't styled many of the items as you would wear them in your casual capsule. I think you did brilliantly in putting this together for yourself, and I agree -- by my personal standards, what you came up with (and what you describe here) would count as casual.

It's just that...well...to be completely honest...I can wear distressed jeans, a t shirt, flat sandals -- and be considered "dressed up." So what Day Vies said really resonated with me. And I have also felt at times that I was being accused of trying too hard to look nice. As if, even wearing a slightly figure flattering outfit (i.e. one that fit, to Runcarla's point) was a bit suspect.

In the end, I am fortunate. I have the freedom not to care too much about how the group (whatever the group is) perceives me. And in person I am pretty friendly so people generally get over their initial distrust of me anyway. But you know...I still think Rachylou is right!

Brilliant, K Can. That's it -- there is such a range, and so the wisdom of thinking about what one actually does -- and how to dress for that -- is supreme. That's why Krista made a really good move when she identified that wardrobe gap and addressed it at...gasp...the GAP!!!

No worries, Suz! I think it has struck a chord with people and I totally understand that. I agree that people have different ideas on casual and what some feel is casual is not what others would say is casual. I'd be interested to hear what Angie would say about this?

I completely agree that your definition of casual is defined by the people around you. I am a grad student in a medium sized city and I find that I am sometimes both the most causally dressed and the dressiest person in my environment on the same day - depending on the places I go.

My challange is to dress in a way that's casual enough for my workspace, feels like my style, and dressy enough to go downtown after work. Over time I've started to figure out which stylish elements blend in the best in my casual workplace and how to tweak an outfit with accessories and shoes to try and make it work through the whole day. But I still occasionally find myself both over and underdressed. I'd love to hear others' tips!

I was thinking that in a good part of America (or maybe a bad part?), casual means wearing gear, either athletic gear or camping gear. So to dress down some of my outfits, I thought back to one of Angie's blogs mentioning utility jackets and anoraks. So-o-o, I tried a Michael Kors anorak in a pretty blue and cute style. But yuck!!!! I instantly understood Rae's complaints about polyester sliminess. So last week I bought an Eddie Bauer anorak which resists rain better and doesn't get clammy. Do my outfits instantly change, having gone from a fashion anorak to a gear one?

Note: I'm keeping the EB regardless because I want something I can wear hiking, and the MK looks like it would rip if a tree branch snagged it. I also figured I should make some concession to environmental norms.

I am really enjoying reading all these posts on the meaning of casual. I think that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If one takes several wardrobe pieces that individually read "casual" in most people's minds, ensure that they are well-fitting, flattering and play nicely together, the end result has a certain polish that not all people can or choose to achieve, even though the look remains casual. For example, the white, red, khaki capsule can look super-smart, but of course it will not work at most funerals, state dinners, or corporate meetings.

I think some reactions to well-crafted casual outfits that people are reporting are about the total effect of the choices- people notice you, perhaps as putting a bit of thought into what you wear or as having an innate sense of style. This is where it gets interesting to me. I have worked in academia, where fashion goes to die. If I walked into a meeting at my college looking extra put together (same general theme, just a high happiness factor for me), it was easy to be perceived as frivolous for caring. I found that fascinating, and at times de-moralizing. Can't we be serious thinkers and have a bit of fun with our wardrobes, too?

Many people seem to get confused: a put-together look is possible across all levels of formality and one is not "dressed up" in casual jeans, sneakers and a tee shirt just because they work particularly well together. I think people sometimes are commenting on what looks like (and sometimes is), effort on the part of the "wearer" to look good, make the most of their features and wardrobe, etc. Some people are judgmental about this focus, some competitive and some dismissive. Another situation where doing what works for you is what it is all about.

I appreciate what everyone has shared.

Eliza, ROTFL -- "where fashion goes to die." I think a few of our other academics would (sadly) agree -- even though they are upping the academic style ante every day!

I also think you're right that sometimes any effort is perceived as frivolous or over-the-top. And people misuse the term "dressed up" when what they really mean is "pulled together." Or something of that sort.

Donna, an actual gear anorak is a great disguise!! (Especially if it actually looks pretty good, too.)

Sammi, I really like your observation that you can easily be the most casual and the most dressed up person in your environment on the same day!! That has happened to me as well. Although usually I'm the dressiest, if I go for an appointment at the bank, for example, I might be the most casual.

This conversation has become such an interesting read!

Looks like this post really struck the cord!
Rachy, you are hilarious!
I am European and moving to Canada gave me quite a cultural shock in the way people are dressed. I don't think it is casual as much as "I don't care" or "I cannot be bothered" attitude. So if you do care how you look and put just a bit of thought into your outfit you are already overdressed no matter how distressed your jeans are and how flat are your sandals. Come on, sweater and jeans is a 'dressed up' look? Because others did not bother to change out of oversized sweatshirts and yoga pants they were lounging at home?
As for the fitting in...I work in a very casual environment - software development. Most of my colleagues are guys who wear jeans and polo shirts - and you know how I dress. I definitely don't blend into my environment, I stand out but I still fit in well with the guys, as much a part of the group as anybody else.

I think that some people manage this more easily than others, Sveta, and I'm not sure why. Part of it is probably comfort and confidence, but some might have to do with the specific environment. One environment might be ultra- casual yet also very tolerant. Whereas another might be much less forgiving of difference.

This thread has gone in so many interesting directions! Great discussion Suz!
Rachylou you are hysterical and oh so accurate!
In terms of RATE and casual, I am inherently RATE and casual and yet my real life friends have complimented my clothes with words that suggest I am fancy also.
Adapting to your surroundings plays a role in everyone's clothing decisions I guess. But everyone does not have the same goals in terms of being approachable and so on. I prefer to look unapproachable myself!

I wrote my thought earlier. I just wanted to read what others wrote after and I have to say that I really, really enjoyed this thread !

I do want to add two other things.

1. I think that some of this is also lack of knowledge and understanding of how to dress because of how much choice we have . I think that some people just don't know. Raise my hand...that is why I am here.

2. I think that the US really kicked off the casual trend as we moved the masses into the middle class. It was a sign of "arriving" . Just like in the old days when being really pasty white showed that you didn't work in the fields, then later having a tan showed you could afford time off and travel to the water and then having "lounge" and "gear" ( sneakers ) showed that you could afford to relax....I don't know if that makes sense. But I believe that is a part of it.

This has been a fascinating read and brought up many memories of casual/dressy struggles. One thing that seems to help me "fit in" with friends is that they know that a good part of my wardrobe is thrifted. My most casual friend, when she hears someone complimenting me on my dress, tells them proudly that I probably bought it at a thrift store. For some reason people seem to think that more dressed up means expensive when often the opposite is true. As Suz said so well, " The skirts were also (ironically) cheaper than the jeans. But I took a lot of flack, not just for being dressed up, but for seeming hoity-toity. People thought I was rich because of the way I dressed, when in fact, I was the one working to put myself through school."

I enjoyed reading all the answers.
One of Gaylene comments really resonated with me:
'The conflict comes when we hit the wall of societal expectations and group dress codes. Do I hang on to my individuality even if it means upsetting or irritating others, or do I adjust my outfit to fit the prevailing ideas about how a person ought to be dressed? And, maybe, "casual dress" is where this conflict becomes most noticeable for many of us...'
This year I joined the mom at the gate crowd and it has taken some adjustment. I know that my shyness is confused with being snob most of the time and the fact that I make an effort to dress what makes me feel and look good only strengthen that impression.
I have my body issues and a body that doesn't do jeans and a shirt that well so it was a bit confusing for me to see moms with great bodies to wear clothes not even making an effort.It actually made me feel bad at one point because in my mind I was making an effort because I had to and they didn't need it.
Thankfully Canadian winter is a great leveler and with winter boots and big coats there is really not much of a distinction which gave me some breathing space and time to think.
Frankly I don't understand if the moms I know are dressing the way they do because they want to be casual, how would they dress if they were thinking about dressing up or if they bother at all with any of this.

Fascinating thread, Suz!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't always feel in sync with her environment. I feel like I dress very casually as a rule, but still manage to seem somehow dressier than most women in my community. Luckily I have good friends who dress beautifully, so I feel at home with them.

A very interesting read. Rachylous comment was very witty. I have to say that generally Australia is a very casual country, a T shirt and thongs (the feet kind!) really are virtually the national dress.

I've gone through many stages. As a lecturer at TAFE (after high school, but not university level) I was always one of the dressiest, but since it was mostly male staff that never seemed to be an issue.

Then we did the lap (a rite of passage for many Australians which involves travelling around the country with a caravan), for a year, which by its very nature is very casual. After returning we moved from Perth to a regional city and I continued to dress the same.

Until a year or so ago. I looked in the mirror one day to see this creature that I didn't recognise. Sloppy, very casual clothes, no makeup, no hair dye. So I vowed to improve and I have, except the hair - didn't go back to the full dye job, too much like hard work! I am still a work in progress but I often get compliments about how I look or on a particular item of clothing. But so far all these seem genuinely meant, not that they think I am "up myself" as we say here in Oz.

In summary I think I am now one of Rachylous "fancy" people, and I plan to stay that way.

This is such an interesting read. Many things spoken about here remind me of high school and how I felt then. I understand shevia when she states "I prefer to look unapproachable myself!" because I learned to use my clothing to keep people away. I slowly developed a more approachable style but even now I get comments on how I am dressed up. I also find it interesting that this conversation shows how much we all have in common. Maybe that is why we were drawn to YLF in the first place. Too bad we do not live closer together so we can have a monthly meeting. Maybe Angie and Greg can add a teleconferencing option to the site and we can meet over cocktails virtually.

YES YES! Another 'fancy-pants' to the end here!:)

A great thread with lots of insights! Sveta's comments caught my interest in particular: She mentions that she is more dressed up than her co-workers, which is fine with everybody. Maybe the expectations differ when we meet someone from another culture, even if it is only slightly different? I think the group norm hits us harder when we are supposed to "belong" both personally AND culturally, like Gaylene among others mentioned. My point is that it is easier to get acceptance for being on the dressier side if we originally are perceived as a bit different, even in a good way. I Norway, traditionally there has been a very strong social control in regards of casual dress codes with very few occasions to dress less casual, but I think it in general is easier to get away with challenging the norm and dress up more lately. I'm not sure why.

Such an interesting thread!! I wanted to chime in with my australian viewpoint.
I think on the whole Australians are pretty casual, but casual can mean different things. A "nice" casual outfit, like coloured jeans and a slouchy tee with a scarf, would be the frequently seen on the mums of students at the dance school my daughters go to, whereas at the government school the girls attend, it wouldn't be unusual, but would be one among many looks - work uniforms, somewhat gothy looks, unkempt hair, trackies and jeans, a few high fashion looks, lots of gear. miniskirts, maxidresses, tee shirts/polo shirts with shorts - really a great range. Perhaps this is partly because I live in a regional town with a more diverse range than the suburbs many of you are in.

And as for me - I think I am one of the fancy people too!

Oh, and I forgot to say. What surprises me is people who I know can dress well, like shopping and have a better natural eye than I do, who invite you over, or you seen them at the supermarket, wearing a t shirt and tracksuit pants.

Can I be one of the fancy people?!

Where I currently live I would say there is a balanced cross section of dressy and casual. I have made peace with the fact that 'dressy' is my preference, regardless of wether I am going to the office, the supermarket, a wedding, etc etc.

I have experienced many years of people commenting "oh are you on you way somewhere" and I just take it in my stride. I do think about the issue of 'fitting in" but not a lot. Im not doing to wear a dress to watch Master 10 play football, but I will wear jeans, animal print rain boots, top and a nice jacket

I feel I really am at the point of just doing what works for me and not worrying too much.

A while ago one of the other mums at the school gate said to me, 'you look nice. Kind of glamorous' I was wearing flat sandals, dark jeans shorts and a nice shirt. It was very casual but it was pulled together. i think you are all right in identifying that difference. I could have been wearing thongs and a tshirt, but 2 seconds of effort to match my shirt and sandals and I got a lovley compliment.

I don't mind if other poeple are very dressed up or casual, but I do mind inapppropriate items. High heels when you are camping or gear anoraks at a night club.

I've been following this thread with interest from the beginning and finally have my thoughts ordered enough to comment.

For me and my life casual needs further divisions and discriptors (is that a word?) I have dressy casual and super casual. Sveta's recent holidays WIWs (what I wore) and Angie's MOTG (mom on the go) are my dressy casual which I'd wear visiting friends, shopping and work teacher training days. Then I have super casual which I'd wear if I was probably staying home but might pop to the supermarket, days out sightseeing and on holiday. It's a combination of my loungewear and gear with perhaps some jeans thrown in. Today we're off to a National Trust property and I'll probably wear cargo trousers or jeans with a T, possibly a fleece and my hiking soft shell jacket and a puffy gilet on top with a cross body backpack bag. For comfort's sake I'll most likely wear either my hiking boots or technical walking shoes. I know my dressy casual would work for this outing but I'd feel a bit too dressy.

On a side note can I just say Angie and Greg I love the new feature to add page links from a word. I know there was a formula to do it before but I couldn't get the hang of it x

ETA I spoke to soon my links don't go anywhere! I'll go back and see if I can get them to work!

ETA finally got the links to work, I'd got 2 lots of https somehow

I loved this thread and all your great insights. I think it's important to differentiate between dressy and pulled together, as was said before. Most people around me don't get that difference. I often get comments that I would be dressed up, but I would say my style is very casual all around. I think it's because my pieces work together and I pay attention to cut, fit and proportions. When I first found YLF I felt like I had to wear dressier clothes to avoid feeling frumpy in my casual clothes, but that wasn't the right way to go about it for me. I just didn't feel like myself in some things. I'm not polished or very dressy and I don't want to be. Now I know that buying and wearing great casual clothes makes me feel fab - as fab as I wanted to feel when I tried to wear these dressier things. Of course casual in my case doesn't mean sweatpants and fleece. So I might look dressed up in comparison to some people after all.