Frumpy is very much a feeling for me - a specific lumpy-oatmeal feeling I get when I am wearing something that doesn't jive with my sense of self and makes me feel downtrodden and bleh. Sneakers are not frumpy in themselves but I FEEL frumpy in any outfit involving sneakers if I am not running or hiking.

Una, interesting. Isn't the feeling associated with the visual?

Gryffin and Gaylene, so it's okay to call an outfit unflattering, old-fashioned, dated and unattractive - but not okay to call it frumpy? That's because the first set of words are not pejorative but the word frumpy is pejorative. Have I understood correctly? Really trying to get to the heart of things. Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Retro and Vintage wardrobe items are "old fashioned". But can look hip when combined with current pieces. So yes - old fashioned can be very, very good.

A male equivalent of frumpy, might be the Yiddish term nebbish, although it's not quite right because It really refers to a man who is shy, ineffectual, timid, and not assertive. When I think of frumpy, I think of a woman who's personal style is one that similarly comes across as lacking in confidence. Talk about negative connotations! Wow! I know that my interpretation of the word frumpy isn't the correct literal definition but it is my association to the word.

For me, style starts with attitude, posture and personality (ie. Confidence). I am not sure when frumpy started (for me) to represent more than just a judgment about the clothing someone wears? Something being frumpy would be a subjective judgement right? Maybe that's where my thinking of personality and confidence come in. The lack of confidence seems to be a necessary component because without it, a confident person and an ineffectual person wearing the same clothing will look very different to my eye. One might look very stylish and the other one, frumpy!

I think that part of the problem with the word frumpy is that when it's used to describe someone, it's usually *also* a not-young, not-thin woman. In any case, it's not just lack of style that makes it pejorative. Just for example, Una (I think) was talking about an athletic friend of hers who is always in not well fitting jeans, t-shirt and sneakers. Usually you wouldn't call that look frumpy or dowdy, but you would recognize it as not stylish.

I was trying to think of some literary references to this, because the word frumpy somehow brings to my mind post-WWII, worn out long faded clothes and felt hats, and there must be a reason I have this in my head.

"Vildy, interesting. And then the opposite happens. Items and
combinations are frumpy right up until the point that they are hip and
fashionable."

okay, so you've sussed out my fashion strategy. I read about and see so much fashion that it's easy to get bored of it well before I feel like wearing it. I like to focus on silhouette and latitude of fit, too. So what I end up doing is noticing what's being most consistently reviled and move to adopting a version of that because it's then a bit too early for it to have flipped and be introduced and seen everywhere. By "everywhere" I mean mostly online and in print. In my real life, I once mentioned to a friend that I was ready to be over a jacket with some fringed edges. Seemed dated to me. She said, well, to me it might be but no one where we live would be even trying to wear it for another 3 years. And that's about right. So I guess I might frequently look out of fashion, if a person cares to look that closely, but I think of it as a different kind of avant- garde.

This discussion reminds me of the Supreme Court justice who saud he could not define pornography, but he knew it when he saw it. (I am not equating frumpy with porn!!!) Maybe the word "dumpy" is a synonym?

I'm with Gaylene on this one. I try not to use the term any longer because, like this thread has shown, most people who hear me say it clearly read much more into the meaning than a description of an outfit. So to other people I might imply much more than I intended or even wanted to express.

Peri is genius.

I agree with out-of-date and unflattering. Those are both also subjective, but are mor easily defined.

If you called someone's look out-of-date, you could then explain why. If you called someone frumpy, you'd be scrambling around for words and probably sticking your foot in your mouth.

Oh, and I don't mean you as in anyone here...it just sounds more personal than "one.Your reply

Perhaps frumpy is too vague a term to be useful?

Angie - I think you misunderstand my point completely. I wouldn't use any of those terms: Unflattering, frumpy, shlumpy, clownish, twee, sloppy etc to me all those terms are pejorative. I personally think "old fashioned" has charming and positive overtones, in a high tea - victorian christmas kind of way - so I'd only be using it in a positive sense if I was using it at all. When I describe an outfit on someone else I try and think in specific but nonjudgemental terms - that are focused on fit, proportion, line, quality, and mood created by the outfit and when I know it, does the outfit convey what the wearer wants it to convey.

Gryffin, great point. I do think specific but non judgemental sounds good. That's why I don't think replacing frumpy with a synonym makes it any better, really.

Staysfit, if we are judging the outfit as if it were on a mannequin, confidence wouldn't matter. That in itself is interesting because I DO think that confidence is a component of being stylish. Hmmm.

Ummlila, that post WW2 picture you have in your head is very interesting. I know exactly what you mean.

Vildy, aren't you alternative. You have a lateral way of viewing the world. Wave to Rachy.

TO MeIt Is dressing way older than you are. If one is 80 and wearing. Pull on polyester pants and white athletic sneakers they are just being practical, or wearing what they have. maybe they can not even shop for anything new. On the other hand a 50 year old wearing this would be frumpy. So there probably isn't a better one word.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in this forum frumpy and frump-factor seem to be used by folks asking an opinion about their own outfit's appearance. I don't recall any threads where someone called another 'frumpy'. How else to describe an outfit that doesn't quite hit the mark because, though serviceable, it might be dull/lacklustre to the wearer?

...kind of like how the word 'mediocre' has taken on negative connotations, when it just means average?

Great thoughts, ladies.

Astrid and Robin, you are wise. I think you both got to the heart of it. The word frumpy can make unkind assumptions about the person - and we are not judging the person. We are judging the outfit. THAT is a good enough reason for me to stop using the word too. And Jules, that's in line with your thinking.

Gryffin, thanks for chiming back in. I loved reading your explanation and enjoyed your High Tea analogy. I use the word "unflattering" in my blog posts and on the forum quite frequently - with an explanation of why I feel that way about said look, proportions etc. Of course, it's subjective because fashion and style is nothing but subjective. Do you think that is pejorative? Should I be using another word or explaining concepts differently?

Also I remmember when I used to watch What not to Wear, much of what Clintoqn tossed out was ,to me, frumpy.a

Runcarla, good question. I'll let the others answer.

Enjoying the debate! Language can be such a minefield! Should we tackle 'in-fashion', 'on trend' and 'stylish'?

Angie: I think I would have thought LaVerne's clothing was tidy and neat on a mannequin, but I would have assumed it was meant for an "elderly" woman --- or a stereotype of what a woman older than myself would wear. I wouldn't have worn it, because I would have felt I looked "frumpy" to the outside world and would have been discouraged by the awareness as I looked in the mirror. I know exactly what Una's talking about, and I felt it just yesterday morning. The feeling is more acute now, since I"m still settling in to a new place.

Fear of being frumpy has led me to some of my worst fashion choices, and that's silly! I've got a feeling that I need to focus on my personal style first, and let being "current" follow. I suspect that I sometimes buy and where what's "there" instead of what is "me" more often than I'd like to admit.

And yes, we must avoid judging women (or men) by their dress. The world is in need of far more grace, beauty and kindness, and we can love fashion without allowing our engagement with it to hurt others. Having teenagers gives me a chance to practice this kindness daily!

Angie, I don't think it's the same if you say "I find x unflattering because of y". If you do that then you clearly state that it's your personal opinion and the reason why you think that way. And we can go on and ignore your opinion if we want to and we won't feel like you are going to judge us as a person because of it.

Astrid, that's what I thought, but I'm glad to hear you validate it. Nothing in the world of fashion and style is fact. It's merely opinion. Take the opinions that resonate with you - and leave the rest.

Runcarla, I dare you to start those threads.

Beth Ann, you are another very wise lady. I love the way you think. "Fear of being frumpy has led me to some of my worst fashion choices". I'd like to hear more about that.

Hmm I don't think I use the word "frumpy", similar to how I generally don't use the word "edgy". Hadn't realized that! They're both hard to nail down, and clearly can mean vastly differing things to different people. As for all the proposed synonyms, they each describe something more specific and I personally would be inclined to use one of those (or something gentler), with an explanation, if necessary when commenting. But you know me, I am in favor of being both technically descriptive and to the point

Angie, I agree with Astrid RE "unflattering" -- you explain why you think so, and we can either agree or disagree. There's no feeling of personal judgement, it's clearly opinion.

Yay, Aida. LOVE your highly technical descriptions, and gentle - and always wise - critique. Like you, I don't use the word edgy (or cool). Thanks to this thread, I'm inclined not to use the word frumpy either. (And thanks for the sweet validation).

For Runcarla: http://tishjett.com/2015/07/wh.....-word.html

This thread has been a fascinating read. I submit "colorless" as another possible synomym. I don't mean neutrals, but more of an invisibility, a not wanting to be noticed. It's hard to define but I know I can feel it. It has as much to do with health and hair as an outfit.

Angie - I don't think anyone who has read you posts could ever believe that you woud ever be deliberately judgemental! You are the kindest, most supportive, warm, generous, loving person (only fur babies excepted;-) and that is why absolutely everyone adores you!! But you hit the nail on the head - telling someone something is unflattering is not as helpful as explaining why that "something" creates a proportion that was not the intended effect. I think it's truly one of your many gifts - how you articulate what to look for in an item or outfit to create and manipulate proportions so we can achieve the "look" that we are striving for. Again, the more specific and detailed the feedback, the more helpful it is. Or as an old mentor used to say, "If you understand the "why," you can figure out the "how." Language, especially text, is difficult because we all assign emotion to certain words. My only point was that the most specific language and the most detailed feedback is always the most valuable and is usually the least likely to carry negative emotions. The last thing I meant to be was judgemental!! Hugs and love!

i have been mulling this over on my drive home. For me, personally, the word frumpy is all wrapped up in a sense of being completely unaware and haphazard. At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to speak for others, on a site such as this, the worst possible thing of all seems to be coming across as if we are totally clueless and/or just don't care at all about our appearance. To wear propotions that are purposefully out of the ordinary, or irregular juxtapositions such as sneakers with dresses can be seen as wonderful, even when they go against our own style preferences, when they are obviously ON PURPOSE. I would so much rather take a risk that ends up as a flop if it at least looks like I made an effort, and my worst "frumpy" feeling days are the ones when I fear that what I am wearing looks like I just had no idea what to do... or didn't care. I think that is why frumpy is such a difficult word to replace/describe/define. Something can be dated, conservative, and even downright ugly by most standards and yet be pulled together and pulled off with penache! But that is because it was worked, manipulated, and CHOSEN. It was picked and loved - not because it simply covers the nakedness - but because it means something to the wearer. So, the short answer is that I have no idea what to replace frumpy with... and I have no idea how to determine what would make a mannequin look frumpy - or not. But I know it when I wear it.

First of all, let me say I agree with everything Astrid and Gryffin have said. To me, there are degrees of negative language we use if we are expressing a subjective opinion--some terms sting more than others because of their connotations, while others can be mitigated because they can be elaborated on using more precise, concrete language so it becomes clearer why the observer is making that judgement.

And, Angie, you are SO right words like "frumpy", "dowdy", and "dumpy" are a real pet peeve. I think my reaction is based on the limp "Well, I can't explain it, but I just know it when I see it" explanation that usually comes when the person pronouncing the judgement is pressed for a followup. Really, the speaker can just say a plain "ugh" and leave it at that for all the help those words give a person. Now, if someone wants to use those terms to describe their own appearance, that's entirely different, much like I can say I feel fat in a dress, but woe betide Mr. Gaylene if he told me I looked fat in that dress.

One of the best aspects of YLF is the careful, but concrete, evaluations that people give when asked to comment on an outfit. Telling someone an outfit looks dated because of the size of the shoulder pads can be helpful; telling someone an outfit is clownish, or dull, or unfashionable, or frumpy says zilch except that the observer didn't like it.

Carla, while it's true that most times "frumpy" is used by the wearer not the observer, that's not always the case. It was all I could do to not write a sarcastic response to one commenter a few months back who posted "Ooohhh, frumpy!!! Looks like something my mother would wear!" Well, hello, honey, I'm old enough to be your grandmother, so I'm guessing said outfit would be too young for me to even consider...

The problem with "frumpy" for me is that its very existence is negative. i don't think I've ever seen it used as a positive thing to say. It's terribly undefined except in what it is not: not fashionable, not flattering, etc.. It's definition is also subjective and often based on impressions I may not share. For that reason I don't find it useful. When people ask if an item is frumpy, I struggle because I don't know what they mean, what's frumpy in their eyes vs. whatever my own observations or opinion might be. It's a minefield of semantics I'd rather avoid than walk into.

Joy, interesting. Perhaps "invisible" is a better word.

HAH, Gryffin. You are wonderful, bright and funny. Thanks for imparting your ongoing wisdom here and on the blog - you know I appreciate it enormously. You are dead right about how we can best offer feedback to others without being pejorative. (Your second last sentence in your last comment cracked me up too). I'm humbled by your awfully flattering words - feel undeserving of them - but humbled none the less. Hugs back.

Wow, Sarah. How eloquent. Being intentional with your fashion choices is at the heart of not looking haphazard or unaware. Great words.

Gaylene, more good points and you made me laugh again too. (Watch out Mr. Gaylene). Concrete explanations are best - although they do take time.

Author Linda, that's a great perspective.