@ Emily - I think a distinction needs to be made between the need to be an authority and how that makes it more difficult for me to do my job. Most of my patients have had trouble with authority figures, so we try to be a bit more casual with the whole thing - that's why we don't wear white coats, for example, and we have our outpatient department with a separate entrance as opposed to being firmly in a hospital.

That being said, I hear what you mean by thinking it's more of a party thing. No parties in my office (usually).

I see that Meredith has started a thread about professionalism and fit-and-flares:
http://youlookfab.com/welookfa.....ofessional

I'd hate for this thread to get sidetracked on the fit-and-flares when your original question was about sleeveless dresses, Lyn. Maybe people would like to post on Meredith's thread if they want to comment on the fit-and-flares, so that this thread can stay on topic.

Yeah, fit and flare is here to stay :p

Sleeves, maybe not.

I hear you on wanting to maintain your personal style, lyn!

I think what interests me about my friend is the way she can wear a mostly neutral palette and somewhat classic clothing (though not exclusively) and be the opposite of boring. It is true that this is because it reflects who she really is; it is not at all fake. I think the way I've described her makes her sound more classic in style than she really is. There's a lot of modern but also something quite Euro in her style and very urban cool. Also -- the other reason I mentioned her, apart from sharing a profession -- is that she manages to come across always as very feminine, and that is okay. Also -- I would call her typical outfits business casual (of some unique kind) -- or even smart casual. Not "corporate." So that should give you some comfort.

And finally, as I said, she has definitely been known to go sleeveless.

As to sleeveless . . . Well, it is a fine line. Part of it is organizational culture. I had a client once where most people wore Bermuda shorts, tees, and flip flops. Including the CEO.

Personally, if the whole outfit is polished and professional, I wouldn't even notice the sleeves. But getting polished and professional can be tricky. It also doesn't help that many women in senior positions are older, and sleeveless is considered less okay for them. This automatically makes sleeveless tend to project youth and lower status in a company. But, I am from the conservative Midwest. So, there is that as well. Might be totally different elsewhere.

@ Suz - Would it be fair to say that she has a very tailored style? I'm trying to imagine this lady and what she looks like ... I kind of imagine someone who has very tailored clothes, impeccable makeup, and like not one hair out of place. I have a senior who is like that. Every single hair on her head is in its place. I'm pretty sure none of her hairs dare move throughout the day! She is very Euro-chic and can wear head to toe black and be awesome!

@ Thistle - I think my soul would die if I saw a CEO in shorts. Interesting point about older ladies maybe not wanting to go sleeveless. Hmm, I'll also take that into consideration.

Based on what you've told me, it sounds almost business casual. I've learned, in general that sleeves (toppers) are necessary for business casual, but I find you can bend the rules in certain companies. Some allow open toe shoes (I learned in general this is not biz cas) and others may allow tailored structured sleeveless dresses on women.

When you say you're a resident, does that mean you're a doc-in-training?

@Katie - We all wear open-toed footwear! If that helps you...

I'm a resident, so I'm a MD, but I'm training to be a specialist! I hope that helps; I call myself a "doctor" as opposed to a "doctor-doctor" ... which doesn't really help.

I can legally use the title "doctor" in front of my name (indicating you are an MD; or I guess a PhD; or a dentist or a chiropractor or a ... etc.), but I cannot open my own practice at this point.

Ooooh! I get it now, thanks

Ok you can wear open toe footwear - I think you have the flexibility to wear sleeveless - as long as it fits the criteria you mentioned

Again, I don't work in the field but from what I gathered, you seem to have some flexibility in your dress code as long as you look professional!

Excuse my ignorance, Lyn* - but don't you wear a white lab coat over the lot? All my doctors wear lab coats - or scrubs.

As far as sleeveless in professional settings goes - it depends entirely on the setting. But always covered on top and at the sides, and never strappy.

I've noticed that the higher-up ladies do keep they shoulders covered, but part of me has been wondering if some of that is more of an age thing (based on what my mother, future MIL and grandmother have said). I haven't worn my nicer fit and flares this summer, but my office is casual until classes start again in the fall and I don't want to be too overdressed. And I see where others are coming from about sometimes the dresses seem "too dressy," which is one reason why I throw a cardigan or jacket over my dress. I fell like it tones it down just a touch. Like you, my dresses make me happy. I think if I had to go back to wearing only jeans and tee everyday, I wouldn't feel as good.

I haven't had anyone comment on whether or not I dress appropriately, but I have gotten a lot of complements when I wear my fit and flares. And as a side note - I'm totally behind the idea of of not looking too authoritarian in a therapy situation.

@ Katie - Yes indeed, it's super flexible. I'm pretty sure if I showed up in a floor length ball gown and tiara, maybe people would say something, but anything short of that I'm pretty sure anything really goes. If my colleague (also a resident) can shave her head and wear cargo shorts and a hoodie, then I'm pretty sure anything I wear is probably okay. I just don't want to be the "weird" resident.

@ Angie - We wear white coats on the consulting floor (the rest of the hospital); and I don't wear one in the ER or when I see outpatients or when I'm in the psychiatry department. I think the feeling behind it is more collegial as opposed to - HI. I AM THE DOCTOR HERE! - and we don't have the germ worries that other units do. We also rarely have emergencies in which you grab the first person you see with the long coat and ask them to make decisions!!

I think I'll stick to good coverage + no straps

@ K - I guess if I look back at my evaluations (at least the ones that are online because I'm too lazy to go get the ones in my binder); everyone has given me full score on professionalism of dress, so I am just too worried for my own good.

If I had to wear jeans and a t-shirt to work every day I'd probably find another job.

Another thing I thought of:

While we think about fashion fairly frequently ( assuming by one's membership on this blog), some people never think or care about it, and maybe your patients don't worry or care what you wear? Wear what you like

@ A - haha, my patients like to comment on my clothes all the time; I think it's something normal that they can converse with me about, because they don't have a lot of normalcy in their lives, unfortunately, due to their illnesses.

Then it's admiration

Your style suits you and makes you happy, it's your trademark now

@A - Thanks for the boost ... my last evaluation says: "Looks commendably professional." ... I guess I'm okay.

lyn...no, she is not super tailored. She has naturally curly hair which has (unusually) straightened some with age; she used to wear it long (this was while she was practicing) but now wears it in a sleek slightly asymmetrical bob. Her overall look is polished vs. RATE - but not "bandbox" polished. There's nobody here whose style is exactly like hers but it has a modern classic core with a bit of the arty eclectic without going right over into "arty lady" territory. And very Euro. She wears heels but walks in them, if you know what I mean. No heels that cannot be walked in. A little bit of "luxe" in the accessories. Even if she is wearing basics from GAP (and she does) they look expensive because of the way she styles them.

ETA: and she wears very little makeup. Lipstick almost always, and maybe mascara. Rarely anything else.

Interesting topic, lyn*! I haven't weighed in with an answer, because I really don't know what to think about how sleeveless works with medical professional wear. It's a fascinating discussion.
@Suz, is your friend's style anything like Parsley's?

I've always thought of professional dress as a uniform we adopt so outsiders can easily identify us. Our professional "uniform" helps others see us in our professional role so they can feel comfortable and secure in our ability to work with them.

It's nice when professional dress can reflect a personal style, but I'd argue that the first priority of professional dress ought to be to define the role itself--as opposed to the individual inhabiting it. If Lyn* walked into a room and I thought of her in her professional role, then I'd be fine with whatever she was wearing--sleeves or no sleeves. On the other hand, if she had to spend time convincing me she was a qualified resident, I'd probably tolerate the interaction, but would be hoping my next interaction would be with a "real" doctor.

I say , wear the bunny print, but with sleeves!

You give a good reminder that in many ways your department is not trying to project the stereotypical " authority figure" physician in several of your clinical settings. So that means I would not apply the same benchmarks that I use for my dress code or for other residents seeing patients with ( mostly) different medical problems and needs. That makes it hard for me to advise you about how you should dress, unless it can be framed differently in a way that uses what I " see" and not what apsychiatric patient sees. . Then there might be other markers for
credibility within your own ranks , as
well. So you can still think of dressing issues for what may be best for patients and then for " the department".
I guess a parallel might be the children's hospital or pediatric clinics- fun prints, frequently no coat, bright colors--though they have the difficult situation
of being both child- friendly and parent- reassuring.

@ Firecracker - Indeed, it is quite an interesting discussion!

@ Gaylene - I think there is the doctor persona when we walk off the unit. When I'm on the consult floors I wear my long white coat (means I'm a doctor, with an MD, not a short coat like the med students) and if I'm going to be doing physical exams, I have a very professional black stethoscope (A Littmann Cardiology III, for anyone wondering) that all the doctors use. Not a nursing stethoscope, but a doctor scope. I could wear shorts and a t-shirt and wear the long coat and a stethoscope and still say "doctor".

@ Unfrumped - It's interesting this point: we probably do have different status markers! I never really thought to notice it! Just thinking now, it might have something to do with the way we enter the rooms. The higher your rank, the longer it takes the patient to see you.... and the more relaxed and more time we usually have with you. I bring a leather swivel chair with me. Maybe that's my status symbol

Addressing the sleveless look, I think it depends on the work environment/field. I do not want to look at or show armpits as I find it distracting. I'm in a creative field, self-employed, and don't see many people daily. I sometimes wear sleeveless tops but keep a jacket handy in case I have a meeting. It also took me a few years to be ok with wearing sandals to work. My customers range in style of dressing from shorts to suit and tie.

When I worked at a university I often wished we could bring back the academic robe, because some profs dressed like homeless people. They expected their astounding intellects to communicate all their authority. Actually, it rested the power of the gradebook, but they thought it was their fantastic minds. It would however, have been nice to have a way to distinguish them from the homeless people frequenting the cafeteria. Even then, it wasn't quite right that they wore shorts and tennies to class. What does that say to the students who are paying literally thousands of dollars to sit in your class? Show some respect, dudes, and keep the calf hair under cover until summer semester. Don't get me started on the profs that rode bikes to work and didn't use the shower before class.

Lyn* it sounds like you aren't having any problems 1) relating to your patients in crisis, 2) establishing credentials with peers and opinion leaders, or 3) getting the soul sucked out by trying to fit into a uniform not of your own making. You seem sensitive to all three issues. From what you say, your instincts have guided you just fine so far.

@ Ann - I used to have a professor who wore black academic robes. He had navy ones for special occasions.

I don't think I can combine a cool conversational print AND sleeveless AND bright colours AND flats AND various whack-a-doodle in one outfit; I'd just probably lose myself in all that. I just usually pick one thing and keep the rest A+.

I have worked with the head of department for the last 6 months and she is the one who gave me excellent feedback on my attire - so I am not too worried about that.

Funny you should mention about the emergency lab coat! I have an emergency long lab coat and a dark blazer hanging in my office (just in case!) as well as a pair of black pumps and my stethoscope - for optimizing my doctor-ness in case I have to teach a bunch of particularly rambunctious medical students!

We are not authorized to speak to any media; I have had to liaise with other services though, which is definitely an occasion for going to get my coat and my steth and my Pumps of Power.

One of my colleagues looks like a homeless person (and may smell like one too) and has been escorted out of the ER when she came to work with her possessions in a large black garbage bag (instead of a call tote like the rest of us have) ... yeah; it happens...

I think this is the question of your comfort. If you find yourself comfortable with sleeveless while working, you can wear it.

I think sleeveless are fine for work. As long as there is coverage for the bra & straps & general hygiene maintained I think they should be fine. Although I generally do avoid them if I'm doing a presentation or conducting a workshop for a large group.

I'm late to the party here, but I do think sleeveless can be professional, if done right. Because it is often well over 100F/40C for like 5 months straight here, sleeveless is necessary. But my sleeveless tends to be a sleeveless blouse with a collar - never tank top like (for work, anyway).

(I also have some personal issues which means I wear sleeveless a lot - I don't sweat properly, so I need the ventilation, plus I have disproprortionately large upper arms, and short sleeves often are too tight. Plus on an aesthetic level, no sleeves actually draws less attention to the upper arm area than a short sleeve does.)

I hear what people are saying about your fit and flares looking like party dresses, but you love them and they suit you and clearly it's a non-issue in your situation. A great example of how personal/individual style can transcend an actual garment, if that makes any sense.

I think your sleeveless dresses come across as professional, especially given the unique requirements of your field. You're doing a great job, and your evaluations reflect that.

LOL about the colleague escorted out of the ER! I so wish I could have sent a prof or two home at various times for slovenliness! I used to have the power symbol clothes in my office too. I would say to the profs, "I dress up so you don't have to." No wonder I quit that job.

I admire your bad-assness to wear your style in the clinic, and I'm sure that attitude comes across as professional, and it might even help you serve your patients better than the traditional white coat. I think MuseumGal has it right, you are giving us all lessons on "how personal/individual style can transcend an actual garment."