>I wonder how many of YLF members consider themselves feminists, yet are >intolerant of a woman who has done exactly what women once burned their >bras for in the first place?

The old story about feminists burning their bras in the the seventies never happened. I was a young 20's something feminist back then and I remember the annoyance we felt as those opposed to feminism circulated this false story. I suppose it got started as some connection to young men burning their draft cards, which actually did happen. Over the years, the only people I have heard this story from are people opposed to feminism. I don't mean that you, Redhead, are not a feminist. Perhaps you are; I certainly hope so. But it is annoying for this now aging feminist to hear this once again as a reason why I should support a woman whose opinions on most things are counter to my own.

womenshistory.about.com/od/mythsofwomenshistory/a/bra_burning.htm

Charlotte--I am not a feminist, I find that the NOW leadership is way to liberal for me and feminists that I have met are not tolerant of my conservative leanings. (but that is a whole other discussion!)

HOWEVER--I am glad to see that you are basing you decision on the fact that her opinions are different from yours. I respect that argument. We must never forget that we are living in the best country for women.

ps--my mom burned her bras

I suppose individual women could have burned their bras privately for reasons known to themselves, I have no way of knowing, but there was no public demonstration of bra burning.

aarg, I know this is not a political forum and I should stop but I really don't agree that this is the best country for women. Have you ever lived in Europe, Redhead? Women in most countries there have all the rights we have, plus they most have maternity leave we would drool for, state-supported daycare, cheaper or free college for their kids, and better retirement packages.

Obama's lack of judgment in choosing people with whom to associate is one of the aspects which scares me the most. William Aares (however you spell it!), Jeremiah Wright, Saul Alinsky, Tony Rezko, the whole ACORN bunch......and these are just men I know off the top of my head-all of these indicate to me that he would not be getting advice from people whose opinions I trust to lead our country. There is no way any man-Republican or Democrat - could possibly know enough to lead us without lots of help from advisors. Dick Durbin, another senator from my state, isn't someone I want making more decisions.

PS-I'm with Maya. I love this forum and I don't want that to change. I've learned so much......enough about politics.

Susan, isn't life interesting? We're on oppposite sides of the political spectrum but we're both still looking for a good dress.

Yes, I know, you're looking for a grey jumper - but that's a dress in my book.

Jumper/dress-It's all the same to me! Have you checked out the thread about Antje's jumper? I think that would be perfect!

One more comment-I am from the school of thought that doesn't expect the government to pay for my kids' education or daycare, when I needed it. Those things are not free. The money is being taken from someone else who earned it and they should be able to decide how to spend it.

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, my husband and I support many charities and are not greedy. We pay more than our share of taxes. We just think individuals should help others, not the government.

OK I know I said I wouldn't reply, but I just want to make a general statement: I don't really take any talk about past associations all that seriously, regardless of party, and regardless of the person. If you go through any politician's history, you will find a number of people who they have "ties" to that perhaps they shouldn't. Both McCain AND Obama do. Heck, even Dennis Kucinich does. How close these ties are is questionable sometimes. But Bill Ayers and Charles Keating are not going to be policy makers, so I see little relevance in digging up the past.

Susan, I wish more people were like you. Unfortunately, I haven't found that to be the case. Time and again, it has been shown that the so-called "socialist" countries that we are supposed to be afraid of are some of the richest and have some of the highest living standards in the world.

Thanks for the complement, but surely you are not saying that you would prefer that we had a socialist government?

The very definition of feminism means one should vote for the best person of the job - *regardless* of gender.

Hillary was my choice over Obama, but it just wasn't in the cards. But I would've been voting for Hillary for reasons that have nothing to do with her gender. And I will not vote for McCain simply because Palin is a woman.

Shell, I am not nearly as eloquent as Maya is, and I write from my emotions and my heart, more than the facts and my brain. But I am going to get on my soapbox one last time, before returning to fashion (regretting I started the thread in the first place).

<up on soapbox - and please feel free to stop reading now - I do not want to offend anyone with my opinions - which is what they are "opinons">

At this point in our history, political diplomacy has never been more important. On this topic, when I compare Obama to McCain, or Obama to Palin, there really is NO contest for me.

In my humble opinion, Obama is a supreme diplomat. Yes, that has a lot to do with his exposure to cultures outside of the US as he was growing up. But I think it's also simply a part of his natural temperament. Diplomacy is part experience, and part who you are and how you approach people in general.

Diplomacy oozes out of Obama's every pore and fiber. This is what appeals to me about him. I've also noticed he and Biden have chosen to take the "high road" and -regardless of the circus the media is playing - have not reduced themselves to "politics as usual." Obama is highly ethical, and he is not your typical politician. I was an HC fan, and yet, Obama has grown on me. I view him as a very rare, once-in-a-century type of leader.

Regarding Obama's diplomacy, it's not just me that sees this: if you read the press outside the US, and talk to people outside the US, you'll find that everyone is holding their breath over this election. Other countries want Obama, because he's a diplomat capable of handling tricky and delicate diplomatic relations. Other countries dread the thought of having Palin in the white house - because she has absolutely zero tact when it comes to diplomacy. The rest of the world sees this very clearly - why don't we see it in the US?

Because Americans (and yes, I am one of them) are arrogant. Palin, to me, comes across as the very caricature and epitome of American arrogance (as does GWB, but I'm getting sidetracked).

We've been arrogant for a very long time. We go to other countries, and we expect them to all talk to us in English. We go to other countries, and we often do not respect the cultural practices there - we expect other cultures to bend down and accomodate American values and practices. Heck, we don't even know geography, outside our own country! (That goes for me too - my girls can whip my butt on geography tests).

You don't necessarily learn this by traveling - but traveling certainly helps. Or, it could be that those who have the curiousity and desire to travel frequently - despite family commitments and financial constraints - are simply more receptive to learning about cultures other than their own. And yes, that may be why I personally identify very strongly with Obama vs Palin.

We could afford to be arrogant for decades, because we have been a superpower. But that has been quietly, rapidly changing - and will continue to change.

The US is in a downward spiral and has been for awhile. We don't see it, because we live here in our own little bubbles - white lab rats happy and content to never leave the safety of our comfortable cages. Yes, I include those that are in the middle class: our middle class lives at a standard of living much higher than the rest of the world. As much as it may feel like a struggle to be middle class in America, we are spoiled white lab rats. (I do not include in there the poorest of the poor in this country, or those teetering on that edge - they certainly DO know what it means to struggle - and McCain's plan does nothing to help them out).

We have also slowly had a brain-drain, particularly in science and technology. This hurts our ability to compete on a global scale immensely.

Our health care system is completely broken. It is the most interesting dichotomy, that we have the most advanced technology in the world - to keep premature infants, sick and elderly alive - and yet too many Americans go without health insurance, leaving them one step away from bankruptcy.

We don't see it, because we don't want to see it (denial).

As we've been on a slow downward spiral, other countries are quietly building their own status as potential superpowers. Russia. China. Europe. Look around. It's not only about military threat (although that may indeed become a serious problem, as we lose our superpower status). It's about our standard of living, and our values and very freedoms.

As for Europe, I refer to the fact that europe will not suffer if oil peaks and prices double and triple - they have long paid the "true" cost of energy and have had years and years to build public transportation, alternative energies, etc. We are decades behind on this, and it is going to hurt us greatly. It is already hurting us.

Don't get me wrong - I do have great faith in this country, and I'm proud to be an American. But we're in a major decline, which will only continue if McCain and Palin get elected.

<stepping down off soapbox>

BACK TO FASHION!

P.s. Sincere apologies for starting this thread.... I should've known I couldn't keep my own comments from veering into the political - I'm too emotional over these issues, because I am scared for our country's future - no matter who wins, frankly.... we are in for some tough years ahead.

... tough years or no, I hope to still look snappy.

Shiny-I appreciate your comments, even if I don't agree with them. Isn't it funny that you don't see Obama as arrogant and to me he is the epitome of arrogance? Thankfully, we can see things totally differently and still be virtual friends!

I think the key idea here is that which ever side you are on, we all are proud to be Americans and want our country to move forward. I think that will happen if we stop the hateful rhetoric-I'm not talking about anyone on this forum. I am thinking of many in the media-and work together for once. Why can't we all be on the same side-America's side- and come up with solutions for these problems? I think we can.

I don't think you should apologize for starting this thread. I bet you made others besides me stop and think about why we feel the way we do. Clarifying ideas is always good, as is hearing the viewpoints of others.

Back to fashion! I too hope to look snappy!

Cool.

So Susan, what do you plan to wear to the election polls?

We are planning on watching the election returns with the students down at Harvard. They have big screen t.v.s and make it an event with free popcorn and sodas. Lots of fun!

Some countries give their voters the day off to vote. This does not happen in the US. I suppose there would be utter chaos! Warm clothes are definitely the order of the day in this neck of the woods.

Sounds like a festive day, Shiny!

Shiny-I haven't chosen my polling outfit yet! I will probably watch the returns in my pj's. One of my former students is on the Harvard football team and doing quite well, I think. His dad told me he has caught at least 1 TD pass this season. He is a great kid from a very nice family, and our whole community is very proud of him. Wouldn't it be a stitch if you knew him?

Shiny, for a while I was watching the discussion you started with admiration for passion as well as a respect of all the girls that took part in it.
Being European myself I was watching. Today however your post push me into writing something from "our " perspective.
Over the years I lived in UK, Spain and Italy. In ALL and EACH of these countries people firmly believe that their taxes, health system and political class is the worst. Should I mention "our" leaders like: playboys of Sarkozy and Berlusconi? Socialist like Zapatero? Ultra right like Heider? And we all been through a solid number of political scandals, freud and never delivered political promises. We don't have oil resources except very expensive North Sea and we are on the whim of Middle East and Russia to supply fuel. Living here is expensive, we are crowded and don't have luxury o American spaces.
Finally: we have our own cliches concerning Americans. Being an arrogant nation might be the one of them but don't you think that assuming that Europeans already chose for Obama, follow the daily stories of Michele Obama dresses or Palin spendings or if McCain finally met or not David Letterman is actually a bit arrogant?
Yes, we look up at USA but it is really a very very general view and opinion.
Our political systems are much more complex, our little worlds are so much closer to what we try to follow and I am not quite sure if we can properly name leaders of just 2 American political parties.
I always admired Americans for feeling free to express their patriotic feeling, respecting their flag and being proud of being AMERICANS. Following the polls the race is very close hence almost half of Americans will be disappointed with whatever result there will be.
When Bush jr. was elected my husband said: " Each democratic country deserves the leader they chose"

I cannot agree more and if I can, I wish you to choose the leader you as a nation will be proud of.

Basia, I lived in Italy and France, and my husband grew up in Greece and we've spent a lot of time there and you are right - each country thinks they have bad taxes, health care and so on. From my perspective, the daily cost of living was higher in Europe and the taxes were higher. People had to wait longer for things like getting phone service (Greece) and were cynical about corruption in government as a way of life (Italy). But on the plus side, the quality of life was also higher. People spent more time socializing with friends and family, the general population seemed better educated, and they took health care for granted. People lost their jobs without worrying about their health insurance, or -if they got really sick- losing their houses.

My family is old New England Yankee, my mother was head of the local Republican group, so I was brought up to think expecting anything from government was bad. And I was fortunate enough to be able to afford private daycare and private colleges for my kids. But I've come to think that healthcare and education (including daycare, because education starts early) aren't extras the way having a bigger house or fancier car or clothes are. They are human necessities for having at least a shot at living a decent life, so I'm willing for my taxes to go to fund them. But right now there is an element in American society that scares me, it goes beyond being patriotic and saying 'I love my country' and says that any criticism of this country is un-American.

Charlotte, I hear what you saying.

What I wanted to say in my comment was that each nation tends to see themselves as centre of the universe, whatever attitude they have towards America. Using other countries or Europe as a supportive argument to your own American believe is a long shot since none other than Americans can have a real, personal and passionate opinion of what is happening in their country. All the rest are only biased outsiders.

(please, Shiny, don't take it personal. It's just my point of view)

Also, I truly believe that your believes, opinion on taxes and politics are determined by your own life: family you were born to, country, religion and following.

I graduated finance while working, I know value of work, money and simply the door that opens for you. Sometimes it's wide open, sometimes it's enough for a foot.
Living abroad I had a chance to review my own stereotypes as well as fight against the cliches concerning my own gender or nation. I learn a new perspective to my own country.

In my understanding what you are saying is the will of conscious citizenship, which is being ready to built common structure like health care or education in hope of common benefit and future of the country. To do that, you need the input, and more than once that input means define what is wrong and to do that you have to be highly critical ...sometimes.

What you saying to me sounds like an " Don't ask what the country can do for you.." which coming from a Republican family is interesting. But, if by any chance I totally misinterpret you, please forgive me- I am still just "studying" Americans and I have a feeling there is plenty to learn.

OK, I have been avoiding reading this discussion any further because I know I won't be able to resist replying, but ever since the mention of Bill Ayers' name, I have felt an itch that just begged to be scratched.

I just want to throw this out there. It's completely nonpartisan and has no agenda whatsoever (unless you count exposing the truth an agenda).

http://www.factcheck.org

I no longer care much WHO people vote for, but what matters to me a lot is that people vote based on facts, and not misconceptions on either side. Both campaigns have stretched the truth, and in some cases flat-out lied, and I think it's high time American voters actively seek out the truth themselves instead of passively absorbing whatever they hear.

OK, I'm done, I swear

Basia - no offense taken at all. Your points are good ones. And, no, I certainly do not have ANY notion that Europeans are following Michelle Obama's clothing choices or what Letterman says etc!! Nope. Not at all!

I agree with you that opinions are determined by your own life, which is why I probably identify with Obama to begin with. Even though I'm a WASP born in the midwest, raised in a suburb, I went to state schools, and was raised by a methodist father who was an excutive but came from a family of farmers, and a Catholic career SAHM mom who came from a family of teachers. Obama and I have completely different backgrounds -yet I relate to him ... go figure. On paper, I *should* have more in common with Palin.... but I don't.

My mother is besides herself over my older sister wanting to vote republican this year. She cannot figure out how she went wrong - she is "old school" feminist, worked the election polls every year, toiled for ERA, etc, and raised us kids as die-hard democrats. Yet, my sister wants to vote Republican. This is killing my mother!

I have been debating with her for weeks, and finally I got her to admit that it all boiled down to one single reason: my sister makes over $250K - so she will fare better economically with a McCain tax plan than with an Obama plan.

And I can respect that choice, believe it or not. At least it has a valid basis to it.

Of course, it didn't stop me from pointing out to her that by doing so, she is hurting our parents, and her husband's parents, and all the boomers that we know who - no matter what their economic status - are retired or retiring.

In the US we have unique demographic trend going on right now. Boomers are retiring en masse. It is natural for boomers to take their investments out of the stock market, and put it into safer funds like bonds. The republican "trickle-down" theory relies on the wealthy getting tax breaks and putting their money back into the stock market. This plan worked great for decades - but is about to fail flat on it's a$$, because too many people are retiring, and will be taking their money out of the stock market. Esp with the economy flailing. They can't even sell their houses to get by!

And on the other end - those boomers who are not anywhere close to wealthy and who have zero investments - they are in even more dire straits, since our health care system sucks and our social security system is going to fail because we do not have enough workers coming up behind them to support them.

It's a great big mess we've got - and republican economics of the last few decades simply isn't going to solve it.

I *personally* don't have to worry - under either party I am in a tax bracket that will be fine either way. And I have no plans to retire for another 20 years, so plenty of time for the market to recover.

However, I have the burden of worrying about my parents (wealthy tax bracket but sorely affected by the economy- since they live off their investments, and cannot sell their house) and my in-laws (less wealthy tax bracket with no investments except their house, and in ill health to boot - they are one step away from bankruptcy, should illness hit).

And then we've got my kids' generation coming up behind, to carry the burden of a destroyed environment, dwindling oil reserves, wars they may have to continue because we got ourselves into a mess, gov't debt out of this world, failing housing market, failing health system, failing education system..... and my own personal investments being trashed so I cannot help them as my parents helped me.

I don't think we need a socialist government - I do think we need a redistribution of wealth so that we "trickle up" not down. And that is what Obama is proposing.

I also think we need an opening of our immigration policies so we can have an influx of people who can help us out with social security and fuel our market and our economy with bright ideas. Immigration is what made America the superpower it is/was. But recent years with GWB terror fear has clapped down on that - which will ultimately be to our detriment.

Obama is also proposing tax breaks that enable a return to "cottage" type industries - i.e., favorable to small business owners.

On that point, I spent 9 months as a consultant and it really sucked. You know there's something wrong with the tax code, when you are ethical and trying to do things right, but walk around feeling like you did something illegal! The current tax laws are such that it seriously discourages you to hang up your own shingle and, oh... I dunno, run a fashion blog! Or whatever!!!

With the internet, anyone with a good idea and persistence can run a small business...except that our tax code is way too burdensome and discourages one to do so.

Someday I would like to go back into consulting but the nightmare that is our tax code - you get penalized for wanting to consult or have a small business - are just not worth it right now.

Ack, there I go again!!!

Apologies - I'm stressed in real life for many different reasons, and taking it all out by debating politics and getting on a soapbox....

Back to regularly scheduled program....

Maya - we just want to know, what are you wearing on election day?

I'm thinking blue.... perhaps my Sweet Pea navy blue assymetrical top... with a jacket or sweater over it?

Shiny, I don't have a very imaginative answer to that.

Basically, have a winter uniform that I wear virtually all through the season: my red toggle coat, skinnies, and boots. Truly, nothing about my outfit changes except which boots I choose to wear, my shirt, and a necklace. Sometimes if I feel like skinnies are too constricting, I'll take a break and wear my bootcuts with ankle boots. I am going to try and be more adventurous this year. I have a beautiful herringbone coat that I wear with skirts sometimes, so I'm going to make an effort to wear more skirts. But I cherish every moment I spend in my boots. They are the most comfortable type of footwear I own.

I have to be prepared though, and so should all of you. I got chosen to be randomly interviewed in 2004!

There was a public burning of bras. I am 54 and I saw it on TV.

I want to clarify something before I comment.

Are people saying that women should vote for women and feminists should vote for feminists?

San,
I'm older than you and don't remember any public burning of bras. Do you remember where or when this was? Out front of one of the Miss America pageants back in the late sixties (68?) some women made a big deal of throwing bras and girdles into the trash, but none were burned.
If you look it up, you will find a lot of articles saying it never happened. Those who say it did don't seem to know where or when.
Personally, I find the story a put-down of women because it seems to trivialize legitimate concerns women had and continue to have.

I've looked all over the internet and what I came up with is (1) the big public bra burning thing never happened (2) people who were opposed to feminism began talking about bra burning after the demonstration in '68 when women threw bras away (I remember that people opposed to feminism never called it feminism, they called it women's lib and they were also always going on about whether or not young women were wearing bras - very creepy) and (3) after the term "bra-burner" became public there are reports that some women burned their bras, whether in protest or support I don't know, these may or may not have been on local tv somewhere. there. I'm sick of the whole subject and will now shut up.

Hmmm does it matter if bras were really burned or not? It's not like burning a bra is some major personal sacrifice that women made to enhance the future of other women's rights.

If you want to honor people who paved the way, then read up on the Suffragettes. They were imprisoned, beaten to near death, and institutionalized so you could have the opportunity to vote. Then base your vote on candidates past performance (because promises are easily broken), not on gender.

Great advice, Nicole!

Whew. My Mom's family is all American and, being Canadians, we took a lot of heat over the years... "you aren't patriotic", "you don't have a culture", "you're just jealous of the US". All I have to say is, watching this election and comparing it to the election we just had... I'm glad I'm a Canadian!

Not trying to be insulting... I just would find it so frustrating to be a US voter right now. Good luck to you all and I hope things work out well!