Is buisness casual considered *office* wear? I wear business casual everyday and don't work in an office ....never have...I dress up more for AT, often suits...but am always pulled together for the salon and often wear a dress and heels .

I know that you don't work in an office Angie, so this look can't be limited to that...I guess it depends on you profession..I would say you are biz casual because of what you do for a living you have the advantage of funking it up a bit..as do I in the Salon

I think R&J hit the nail on the head:)

I would just switch out the shoes for some pumps or oxford. I would wear the outfit but not the boots. Too me that makes the outfit feel too casual.

Yes, the boots make this looks business casual!

I am seeing some clear dividing lines: BC conservative vs. BC creative, for one, and possibly BC office vs. BC non-office (can't think of a better work at the moment). So one could work in a non-office and/or creative environment and have more fliexibility, or one could work in conservative and/or office space and have stricter rules. i would be really interested to see how Angie divides these up!

I just typed out a long response, but I think I'm going to also champ down and wait until I hear Angie's take!

I do think that much of what passes for "business casual" -- and I'm primarily speaking about men here -- is not really BC at all, but casual. Khakis and a polo shirt is not business casual in my mind, it's casual Friday. This is what I meant in Dashrashi's thread where I said that many people define BC as "casual clothing that I can wear at my place of business."

If pressed to classify those outfits, Angie, I would call them (very) smart casual rather than BC. And yes, if the boots were swapped out for pumps and the dresses had another inch or two in length, I would call them BC.

This makes me realize that what I wear to work, despite the no-dressy-jeans rule, is not necessarily what I would call BC either. It is merely less casual than what most of the faculty wear. Hmm.

I'm with Shiny--when I think of business casual, I think of something polished and professional but in a more relaxed fabric or with a hint of visual interest in color or cut. If you're in a conservative or male-dominated environment, even a dress can be dicey. It really is relative and you have to take your cues from your boss, your co-workers or your clients.

It may be a generational thing, too--those of us who struggled with the corporate environment of the 1980s and early 90s, which was not always friendly to women, dressed every day to say, "I AM SERIOUS AND CREDIBLE AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT."

I'm in the "it depends" camp. The definition of business casual depends on:
- the type of work/work environment
- geographic location
- cultural expectations

That being said, the dress+boot look, as shown, could be BC in a creative environment, but not in a more conservative office setting. I agree with April that the looks are more smart casual, if one had to label them.

I adore the look, but I don't see it as business casual for the reasons already listed. Then again, I'm here to have my eyes opened. Can't wait for you to spill it, Angie!

These would be appropriate for my office and my definition of business casual today. And while they would be acceptable in the corporate world's definition of business casual, they would most likely be out of the norm. People would look at you askance because these ensembles have a bit of edge. I've seen people interpret business casual as flip flops, jeans and T-shirts, and get away with it, and these outfits are a zillion times better than those. If I were still in corporate America I might not wear these exact outfits for business casual...though I might if I modified them slightly by adding a cardi, for example.

I wonder if location has anything to do with it. I have seen it all here in NY and much of it appears to be dictated by the climate and the fact that it is a commuter's city. Therefore I think there is more leeway in terms of things like footwear. We all commiserate with each other on that. Very few women wear heels over 1 or 2 inches, if they wear heels at all. I don't have a lot of experience dressing biz casual myself, but at my last job the senior staff had a biz casual dress code and even they seemed to put comfort ahead of style. You do what you have to do. Style should never get in the way of practicality.

Maybe it's also because NY is such a huge fashion mecca and we're always a step ahead of the rest of the country (sorry if I sound arrogant--I do love my city!). I don't see how bare arms could possibly be construed as casual or offensive in any way. I will stop here before I go on my why-are-Americans-so-darn-uptight rant (I'm not talking about anyone HERE, just the fact that our society in general is so incredibly silly). I guess it's just something I have to tolerate for now.

Maya, I agree, but somehow I'm still not comfortable wearing sleeveless shirts to work. This will sound absurd, but it's more about not showing an armpit than an arm. There's something vulnerable about full arms, but particularly shoulders. Some Catholic churches won't allow wedding dresses with bare shoulders!

Somewhere along the way I picked up the belief that you shouldn't show toes (other than peeptoes), shoulders, backs, bellies or too much leg (meaning more than an inch or so above the knee) at the office. God, I'm really such a prude! Ok, sleeveless shirts for me this summer!

It's so fascinating how interpretations of "business casual" differ! To my eye, at first glance these don't read as business casual looks to me because I'm not used to seeing shorter skirts *and* bare arms at the office, except for the most casual workplace I was employed at. However, I think the location and industry have a lot to do with it. My workplace dress code, while on the casual side, tends to be pretty basic and conservative. You could probably get away with everything that Angie is wearing, but you might generate some comment. Adding a jacket or cardigan would probably tone the look down enough to avoid much notice at my company (although few women wear skirts already.)

In a previous job, when I was employed in the staffing industry, it was important to dress professionally and avoid looking too trendy because as recruiters, we wanted to model the kind of business casual attire that we expected our employees to dress in when they went out on a job. It was interesting to see or hear what attire generated comment or complaint - my manager raised his eyebrows when someone came to an interview wearing bright purple tights with a skirt suit, and I remember a client being upset that an employee came to work wearing nice city shorts. Also, I remember a couple employees with visible body art (on necks, lower legs, lower arms) that had to do some interesting maneuvering to hide their tattoos while at work.

Like many of you mentioned, I think that what Angie's wearing here would be appropriate within a more creative industry or urban/trendy work environment - just not necessarily within the company or within the field that I currently work in.

Thank you, ladies! I appreciate your valuable responses enormously. This was *extremely* interesting. I’ll try to keep my response short:

o My hat off to Julie (RoseandJoan) who summed up the thoughts in my head perfectly. Thank you!

o In my line of work as a fashion stylist, or in any given work day as a fashion buyer (bar serious price negotiation meetings with manufacturers, and product reviews with top management), these outfits are 100% business casually appropriate. They would work in the advertising field and any other creative field as well. You’re after superb quality garments but together in edgy ways.

o I work with clients in conservative fields like finance, banking, insurance, human resources, accounting and business consulting and my type of BC outfit would not fly for them. They need to be less trendy and more classic for sure. Even a tad more formal, especially in the footwear department.

o BC does not necessarily mean classic and timeless. The nature of your work environment may allow for flexibility. I have dressed business casually for my work environment for the better half of 18 years in Europe, Asia, Africa and America. Trendy is encouraged.

o The length of the first dress (the dropped waist) and possibly the third dress are a little short for conservative industries. The hemline of the middle dress however, is completely appropriate for any business industry. Showing the knee cap is fine.

o Wearing robust sleeveless garments that are build up at the shoulder, neck and have ample coverage under the arm is a non-issue in my book. Completely office appropriate in all business casual settings. Even business formal settings if you came to work with a jacket and removed it later. Strappy flimsy sleeveless items with lower necklines are not appropriate. I think we have had this debate before! I am absolutely on the camp that deems the right type of sleeveless item as office appropriate.

Phew! I need a cuppa tea.

Thanks Angie, it was fun to hear everyones perspective on this.

I have never thought sleeveless was not appropriate when a jacket or sweater was removed, to me it depended on the quality of the garment. Of course a sleeveless tee is not in the same class compared to a sleevelss tweed sheath dress and jacket.

Glad my thoughts on sleeveless are confirmed.

The question still remains though: Although my instincts were validated, no one else in my office really stands out in terms of how they present themselves. For a creative department at an art museum, they sure dress sadly (sorry to say but true). Their looks say "I am wearing this because I feel like I have to" to me, which sometimes makes me feel as though I'm giving the impression that I'm just dressing how I want and not being mindful of the boring dress code like everyone else. I don't know if that made any sense.

My supervisor told me she had a "uniform" the first day when I asked what the dress code was. She doesn't dress badly--a few fit issues and a little boring, but there is at least a good beginning (she usually wears a buttondown shirt, dress pants, and some rather nice Sofft pumps--although she does her commuting in Uggs!). I must say she chose some killer specs though! Red with pretty temple details and lots of lift. She has a nice haircut too.

There is one gent who dresses quite nicely: Polished shoes, coiffed hair, dress slacks, watch, and crisp shirts. Again, nothing special but certainly well groomed and very presentable. Most of the younger staff tends to wear casual pants, sweaters, ponytails, casual flats (super casual--like slip on sneakers or gear). They're of the "as long as it isn't jeans" variety. Sometimes I wonder if I draw too much attention to myself, and if so, if it's negative attention. It's very clear that I put a lot of time and effort into what I wear, although it strays quite a bit from the norm, and I just hope that is a good thing.

I have a feeling I am going to be completely lost when I have to begin dressing business casual. I am so addicted to jeans and my life is so casual at the moment. I am eagerly awaiting the day I have to dress more professionally, but it is going to require *so* many new purchases. I fear that I have nothing business casual in my wardrobe currently.

Maya, I have ALWAYS over dressed so to speak...there will always be those who admire that, and those women who resent that because it makes them feel less than styled. I refuse to opologize to anyone for who I am...so hold your head high, be proud of your stylish self and if negitivity comes your way ...blow it off:)

I honestly get tired of the sloppy look the majority of people sport(Calif)...even to a recent evening holiday cocktail party...just shocking. The split was 70%TO 30% the 70% looked like they were attending a picnic..tee shirts, jeans and tennies!!!!...the rest of the crowd looked appropriate in dressy attire...very sad:(

That's the whole issue Taylor: I don't know that I'm overdressed. I just know I'm dressed very differently. I mean, *I* know I'm dressed better/more appropriately, but most people in the non-YLF world seem to have such rigid ideas about what biz casual is. Whether more dressy or sloppy, the people I work with dress more conservatively than I do. By comparison, I dress very trendy. All day today I was wondering if they "got" my boyfriend blazer or not (though that doesn't stop me from wearing it, since I know it's appropriate). I just find that lack of enthusiasm and conservative dressing to be totally misplaced in a creative, art-driven atmosphere.

I guess I'm afraid that they might assume I'm just not following or considering the dress code because nothing I wear seems to fit their perception of what it should be. But at the same time, I can't bring myself wear what they wear! There is no way I could be comfortable wearing polos, scuffed gear shoes, and chinos. I just try to remember that how I dress is just one small piece of the puzzle, and at least I look like I'm making an effort...even if they think it is a misplaced effort. I guess that's the best I can do. I can't lower my standards just to fit in--I'd rather raise them to stand out.

Ahhh - so miffed I missed this conversation while being asleep!

Maya - I know what you mean about feeling too dressed up. I often had this problem in New Zealand, but don't have it at all in London. NZ is definitely more casual in attitude than London, but also I wonder whether it is because I am now older and feel like I have grown into what I am wearing?

Maya, interesting thoughts. I'm in the museum field also, although in a midwest history museum. I've met hundreds of museum people over the years and most are NOT creative dressers! There are exceptions (those in admin or public programming), but most are academic types who don't know the first thing about dressing. They study art or history, but it doesn't occur to them to incorporate those aesthetic principles into what they wear. They probably admire you. Keep on doing what you're doing!