Does anyone else think it's odd that a formal and fairly modest outfit for a woman can be short sleeved, show the collarbones, and the lower leg, but that would be totally inappropriate for a man?

Then men would have to shave their legs. And their chest. ROFL. I can think of a few guys a cocktail dress would NOT look good on.

*lol @ mental image*

But on the flipside, it is completely acceptable for men to go shirtless (in certain situations).

I don't see modesty as a feminine issue - perhaps it's a local thing, but here men show 1/2 chests full of hair, wear tight white pants, wear booty shorts, and sport super-tight tees that expose nippleage. They should be held just as accountable for being inappropriate.

IMO, when at work, I feel I must keep the cleavage wrapped up - I think I just feel bad because all the men have to be literally wrapped up in ties all day. Who am I to free my boobs at work when they can't show neck?

Outside of work, I'd just prefer to not be forced to look at any body part that has the primary function of expressing bodily fluids/waste. This should adequately cover nips, butt cracks, and man/lady parts. No one needs to think about bathroom action when eating dinner/shopping/riding the bus/et al.

Chewy -- a short answer to your question: no, I don't find it odd at all. Think of it this way: a man can stroll around in certain places with the entire top half of his attire missing, and we don't find it inappropriate, but women can't do that (in Western culture, anyway). There are different fashion rules for men and for women, whether we like or agree with them or not. I think it has do with the nature of male sexuality, in that they (men) are in general more visually stimulated by the female form than the other way around. Thus men's fashions display less of the male form than women's do, because part of the driving force behind women's fashions is related to attracting men -- or the "right" kind of man, whatever the woman feels that is. It's not necessarily a carefully thought-out sort of thing, but it helps shape our fashions regardless. This also explains why gay men often wear much more revealing clothing than straight men; they, too, dress for the benefit of other men.

ETA: lyn, a good many young men DO shave their chests! It's the new thing (or so my running partner tells me. She's nearly a decade younger than me, and she finds chest hair on a man appalling. So her husband gets rid of his).

The word modest does not offend me as I am a modest dresser.
I am a very slim hour glass so my clothes must fit otherwise my shape is lost . My clothes show that I do have curves, no denying I am a woman, I feel no need to hide that. Nothing too tight, too short, or too low for me.

I am only put off by overt sexual ..in your face sort of attire on other women...I don't exactly understand why some women feel it is necessary to over expose themselves to strangers.

Oh it's such a tricky one, isn't it. I agree with you all - it's not black and white and it IS all about context.

I like to ask myself 'is this outfit classy, elegant or nice?'. If I err on the side of anything then this is the side I want to be on. If I could get mistaken for a prostitute (please distinguish this from being propositioned because a guy is just a dork) then I am in the wrong clothes.

I see a lot of teenagers now who wear the latest fashions and many of them look lovely but just as many look very cheap. Such a shame because I think some of them just don't know any better. I often say to my daughter 'elegant, pretty beautiful. Like Audrey Hepburn!'

I wear my clothes tight enough so that people can see I am a women, and loose and long enough so that people can see I am a lady. I strive to be lady-like

That being said, I wear volume and hide my waist quite a bit. But I do wear very tight skinny jeans and sleeveless tops and dresses.

With my pixie hair, flat shoes, high neckline preferences and few curves, I am not perceived as stereotypically alluring to men and women.

love your answer Angie!

high five, Kim

A lady. Love that image Angie. Thanks.

Ok I'll start off with what might sound strange but to me someone could be fully clothed in billowing figure hiding robes and yet be immodest. To me: Modesty is more than what you wear its also how you wear it and includes subtle things like body language.
For an appropriate date night I'll occassioanlly wear a low neckline top or a short skirt but when I walk its a confident walk its not a come hither or look at me walk. I find this makes the opposite sex less likely to look at me in an assessing manner.
If you feel immodest in your mind then you are more likely to be perceived as such, modesty like most other things starts in the mind. (Of course, these are just my opinions and perceptions.)

I agree, Sona - although sometimes in is not in the woman's mind but the man's. I remember being back in Mumbai a couple of decades ago, before India was quite as modern, and getting harassed by guys if I so much as met their eyes, even though I was dressed just like my cousins ("Eve-teasing", if I recall). Either they knew I was foreign-born (which was associated with loose morals) or just daring to stare back was asking for trouble. And the same thing happens here passing by a construction site or even the international hostel across the street from my office - TO ME, a middle-aged mom!

And the frustrating thing is that if you were to turn the tables and objectify the guys, most men would find THAT to be suggestive also - because the power dynamic has yet to equalize.

To jump in:

I agree with all the objections to the term. I have particularly strong feelings about this because I have gotten lectures from bosses / parents / professors / men I've dated about the "inappropriateness" of a particular outfit for a particular context, often when a woman who was differently shaped was wearing a significantly more revealing outfit.

(I'm 5'3" or so, a size 4-8 depending, and a 30G bra. I'm one of those women who is both slender and curvy, and while I like my body, pretty much anything can look "obscene" if you are of the mindset (which I'm not) that women's bodies are obscene.)

I don't show a lot of cleavage, but I wear fairly low-cut shirts because high-cut shirts make me look thick around the middle. I wear tastefully short skirts because I have great legs.

But frankly, one of my great feminist pet peeves is the pervasive idea that some bodies are naturally more "obscene" than others, and therefore an outfit that looks "tasteful" on someone boyish might look "trashy" on me. See, for instance: http://lillianbehrendt.com/?p=50

As it pertains to cleavage (and really any revealing dressing in the workplace or church), I'm with @MsMaven and her DH.

If you want to be taken seriously in the workplace, I am pretty conservative and do not believe you should show any cleavage at all. I think it is naive to think others aren't distracted by it, whether men or women. The eye is naturally drawn to skin and men are especially visual. If your colleagues are looking at someone's uncovered chest because their shirt is too low or upper gams because their skirt is too short, then how can they be listening to anyone's ideas? Outside of church and the workplace, I'm fine with less conservative dress for adult women.

I've been having a similar conversation with my 14 year old DD about how dressing can attract the right or wrong attention from boys. It's just plain creepy when adult men are straining their neck to look at underage girls with revealing clothing because their parents aren't bold enough to set appropriate boundaries.

Last week I was on an airplane and the flight attendant (who had great legs) had on a mid thigh uniform dress. When she reached up to put a bag in the overhead compartment, the dress rose right below her bum and you could see the lines of her pantyhose. It was really unprofessional.

Adorkable (cute name, btw): I understand completely where you're coming from. My figure is on the boyish side, and I can 'get away with' shorter, tighter clothing that a woman with a more va-va-voom figure -- but I agree that it's unfair.

About ten years ago, my mom was working as an elementary school secretary, and there was an interesting court case that began with a grade seven student at her school. The young girl in question was full-figured and well-endowed in the cleavage department, and she went to school one day wearing a tank top and was asked by the principal to cover herself with a sweater. Her father was furious, since it was a hot day and most of the other girls -- all of whom were slender and small-breasted -- were wearing similar tank tops. The father insisted that his daughter was being punished for being plump. I don't know how it all turned out, but it went to court. I sort of agree with the dad -- it's an unfair double standard -- but on the other hand, the tank top certainly drew attention to the young girl's voluptuousness, which somehow doesn't seem appropriate for an elementary school setting. Perhaps they should tighten up the dress code for everybody.

The other thing that kind of annoys me when the topic of 'modest' dressing comes up is -- and this is another feminist issue -- that why is it the woman's problem if a man cannot restrain himself at the sight of her breasts? I may be going out on a limb here, and I fully agree with all of you who feel that over-the-top 'sexy' clothing is inappropriate for the office; however, some women, owing to their generous cup sizes, often cannot help a little visible cleavage in just about any top that flatters such a figure. Large breasts look better in v-necks and blouses with open collars; high necked tops just make the boobs look even bigger. Why should they feel they need to hide them, as well as any other curves, in the workplace? Grown men should be able to handle seeing the top of a breast without getting all distracted. It's all desensitization, anyway -- like the African women in the movie 'Babies', who stroll around without any top at all and somehow we don't register them as being half-naked.

Una: what's India like now in term's of fashion and feminism?

Elisabeth, we need a "like" button for that post.

Una- I totally agree- modesty is in the mind- of both men and women. To the poster who asked what is India like in terms of fashion and feminism- its hard to define one norm. With the economic boom has come a lot of western/global looks, major designer labels, label envy and many Indian women are now choosing careers in films/f ashion/ televsion . That being said the onus on women to be fair skinned, skinny and tall is huge. This is of course an oxymoron because as a race we are darker skinned, shorter in stature and curvaceous.Unfortunately feminism is still in its infancy and as on another thread ambitious urban women are those that often marry rich and have influential friends.
Yet 70% of India is rural- women work alongside men in fields while tending to hearth and home without any help from men for the most part. BUt globalisation is making its way to villages and cell phones and computers are bringing in waves of literacy and economic empowerment.
It is still in both urban and rural settings very much a male dominated society though.

Aw, thanks, Janet.

It's nice to hear votes of support on this divisive topic. There was an interesting article on fashion and feminism last Friday on Sal's link page. It's related to this comment thread. I'll try to remember to suggest it for Angie's lovely links post, but here it is for now:

http://finalfashion.ca/so-is-fashion-feminist/

There have been a lot of great points brought up here.

Modesty seems to be a bit of a hot-button issue here. Of course, this surprised me at first since I often see the word used on the site, specifically when Angie asks us to chose teams or describe our styles and the motivations behind those choices. Of course, I did ask what modesty meant to *you.*

I certainly agree that culture impacts what the word "modesty" means, as well as how we see fashion and even concepts like feminism.

In my community, feminism is much maligned. However, there has been support for indigenous feminism. The focus is different, more on the health of the whole community. It allows more room for cultural and traditional beliefs about both the power and strength and roles of women.

Taylor and Elizabeth, I particularly appreciated how you approached the issue.