I've met some 'true originals;' you probably have too, rachylou. Several of them are mentally disturbed and all of them have issues interacting with the 'real world' in a way that I'd consider functional, especially if they don't have someone in their life to act as a handler. If you're one of those people, god bless you and I hope you get the chance to express yourself creatively and live what you consider a happy life, but for the rest of us I don't consider it something to aim toward or aspire to.

You've gotta learn how to function socially if you live in a society, and part of that is fitting in, to a certain extent. Clothes are social markers as much as aesthetic ones, as we've discussed here a lot, when we talk about social norms. When we get dressed, we're all working within the bounds which we find around us - if we lived in ancient Rome or medieval Italy the conversation would be the same but different.

Even genetic clones are individuals if they've lived their own lives and had their own experiences. So to me the base level of individuality has to do with what you think and what you do, not how you look or what you wear, because only a certain percentage of that is within your control.

Whereas I could own the polo, and do, for my gear/hot weather walking outfits. Preppy isn't that much of a stretch for me/or is a shadow style. Now, crew neck adult size small tees, on the other hand....

I think that there may be an element of sameness to 'in style' and stylish. In my mind it means you are standing in a particular visual stream relevant to your time and place, you aren't way out ahead of it, or way behind it. No value judgments on that though.

For example in Spain and France, I saw lots of stylish women, also I was kind of struck on the subway and subway stations by how identical they all were in terms of visual presentation. There was one alt looking person with more scraggly hair on a bus in Barcelona and I inched closer to her, mightily relieved, I'd been feeling awkward and out of place for days in spite of my best efforts to blend with locals (my default approach to travelling).

ETA: My impression was that calling someone a 'true original' was a compliment, or that's how I've heard it used.

Lol, Laura. You go, girl. Tell it like it is!

The human being is such a visual creature. By contrast, presumably, dogs don't *know* until they can go up and smell something. Humans, we feel assured when we see. We say "see you later"; we don't say "smell you later." (Although there's that commercial that says no none tells you to *stop and see the roses*... which I think is an astute comment in light of evolutionary biology.)

Anyways. Sometimes, like in primary school, very small differences in the way a uniform is worn can speak volumes - as torontogirl spoke of. But that's within a small community. I don't know that those tells tell in a broader community.

I also wonder about how much sartorial uniformity is required to be a functioning member of society at large. My salt-of-the-earth mother, who is a power house as well as a pillar, suggests I try a new hobby all the time. Frankly, I'd dress a lot crazier if I didn't also enjoy being bossy to a certain extent. People who step out of line are a sore thumb.

I think that if I were forced to wear a uniform of some sort, and to look like everyone else, I would (1) get the uniform tailored if possible so that the fit was perfect on me, and (2) I would put lots and lots of time and energy into personal grooming. I think that if you "look like everyone else" in terms of clothing, then achieving the perfect fit and being meticulous about grooming (and using your hair as an accessory) would be very important in trying to look stylish.

Oh, I think you are very very right, Gigi.

Very right!

I agree that context is part of style RachyLou! It's an interesting thought experiment though.

i absolutely think you can be stylish if you are dressed like everyone else. It's your own uniqueness that can make you stylish no matter what you are wearing.

Hmm in answer to the question posed, I think yes. Style and uniqueness are mutually inclusive, but not equally necessary. As others have pointed out, regardless of a uniform the wearer will bring a degree of uniqueness to it just for being a unique individual, never mind whatever other external or internal elements might contribute. But of course there's always that matter of authenticity and attitude; if two people are wearing the same chic outfit and one is visibly comfortable in it while the other is not, we will likely interpret that first person as being more stylish than the other, yes?

Yes, that's a good point about really owning it. Maybe that's the make it or break it a lot of the times. A person could be dressed exactly the same as half the people in the room, but they embody the outfit more. The difference between being in your own skinnies and kneeboots and someone elses's...

Yes, you can be stylish looking the same. I work for a major University and I wear a uniform everyday. Jeans which I have tons of. I mostly stick to the same type of style. I wear wide leg high waisted denim with some type of suspenders attached. I have polos and button downs that I take to the tailors and have the collars removed and then fitted to me and my bust and waist. I have to wear work boots or hiking shoes so, I choose to have a variety. I will usually wear a vest or some type of topper and earrings. So I still feel like a stylish Urban Night Warrior and still conform to the company dress code.

I spent all my childhood in schools that had uniforms. Like down to how many inches your socks had to be rolled or raised. Precisely which three hair accessories you could use and whether you had to or whether you must not. How far you blousoned your tucked shirt and where your tie point stopped. The only two possible materials and styles of jewellery. And yes the colour of your shorts under your games skirt!!!

Did not prevent the emergence of a cool and stylish clique in each and evry class and section. So yeah, yes. It isn't the clothes or even the accessories alone. Not even with identical twins (we could always tell them apart as they grew older... nursery and kindergarten was trickier but then at that age parents usually use a mnemonic. Different hair partings or handkerchiefs or something.

... You know, I wonder how many people abandon a job because they look bad in the uniform...

I would not quit if the pay is right. I would make It work but, some people maybe, rachylou. Wearing a uniform is not that bad but I think that is why I am more expressive when It comes to my time off. I usually will not touch a jean on my off time never never never ever. I just started to wear camouflage again after 12yrs of being out of the Army. I used to get really angry about people wearing something I honored and respected greatly. It just burned my britches to see that. It was because I earned the right to wear them and now it was a fashion "trend" I went to war and people died and are permanently injured from war because of this. Uh Oh I think I went to deep. Everything mellows with time and distance.

I think some people might, too. It sounds silly, but if you can't imagine yourself doing something, it can be hard to do it.

We've talked about the wearing of camo here on the board in the past. Some avoid it, for the reasons you mention. I have generally avoided it, but was persuaded to get a camo letterman style jacket last year... man, every aspect of the jacket is a rip... Anyways, one of my best friends was marines then army (signed back up for Afghanistan/Iraq). He's ok with civilians in camo. But one, we grew up amongst the hunting crowd, and hunters wear camo too. And two, civilians being civilians don't know respect for the uniform in the same way; civilians have love for the uniform. If that makes sense.

What makes him really quite angry are the Juicy-Couture style sweats that say *ARMY* across the butt, that soldiers wear now. Really, quite angry... I think he's afraid for the next generation...

It would bother me to be wearing exactly the same item(s) as someone else--like showing up at a gala and 2 gals have the same evening dress--sure, they look different but it's not fun. (like the magazines--"who got it right?")
But even that is just a dress, and it's not a trend per se.
Take the Birkie re-trend. I won't be wearing because they're not right for my feet. but let's say I did and went to a barbecue and I and 3 or 4 other ladies had on the exact white patent Birkie's. Even if one was with a dress and one with crops and so on, that'd feel bad to me, I think--too lemming-like.

I'm amazed I don't "see myself coming and going" as the saying goes, any more than I do (which does not seem often) since even though I do some internet shopping I also buy from local retailers and don't live in a big city.
So either stuff is more dispersed and not in my circles, or it actually looks different enough on different people that it doesn't hit you, or something.

rachylou-I must say I agree with your friend. I understand what you say "civilians being civilians don't know respect for the uniform in the same way; civilians have love for the uniform." About the camouflage I understand I read a couple of the threads. When I first left the service I would see old war veterans and they would be wearing hats and caps from the military. It would obviously say veteran or was a nod towad being a veteran. I felt as if I was to young or just did not want to do that. Now I have so much camo. Sweaters Jackets, pants it is like I am paying homage to my past while working the trend. It is part of my way to still having that connection. Sometimes people ask me and I tell them I am a real veteran. Sometime people do not see women a being veterans but, we are out here.

unfrumped - I admit I find it a little bit of a weird-out when people, esp. if they're together, are wearing the same thing essentially - but it's not meant to be matchy matchy. Like "Mitchell Family" t-shirts. And I too am amazed this doesn't happen all the time. We all go to Target, right? I think people are inclined to differentiate somewhat, that's why it doesn't happen.

ladywone - It must be an interesting... feeling (?) to wear fashion camo. You're right about women not being seen as veterans per se, even when they've served and everybody knows it. Like at the VA. No one sees that as a defining identity, but how could it not be? A very strange thing.