I have never felt overly attractive, and I do believe makeup (along with the way I dress) improves how I feel about myself and hopefully how others perceive me. I was always taught to put my best foot forward, and to me that includes makeup, clothing and accessories. I don't feel the need for lipstick, though, which is the focus of this thread.

I really like what Sarah(sarahthewhite) said. I like people to see me and who I am. It it feels like me, I feel confident. I have a quiet personality so I feel my clothes express who I am. I don't wear lipstick because I wear eye makeup and it feels too much to paint my lips too . I wear gloss occasionally. I wear eye makeup because I wear glasses and I think it highlights the whole glasses thing. I can't imagine not wearing glasses. I used to wear a lot of black but wear more colors but wouldn't say that was more confidence but the ongoing journey of who I am and expressing that. Who knows ? I might go back to wearing all black when I'm 80.

*emotional hugs back*

When I was young, I felt that bright lipstick was way too showy and sophisticated for me. Now that I am old (62) with faded lips and gray hair, I feel like I pretty much need to wear lipstick so I don't look washed out. I still don't like bright lipstick, but I've taken to liking dark lipstick which probably makes me look older. Oh, well.

IMHO, our society tends not to see older women; we become invisible. I think for that reason I've started to wear clothing that stands out a bit more and is not what I would have worn when I was younger. I still shy away from bodycon styles -- and for me skinny jeans are bodycon! I'm taking baby steps, though.

I think, for me, I have used makeup in the past to give me a confidence boost. I don't think I've ever had a time when I felt really bad about myself physically where I didn't feel better with makeup on, and lipstick in particular.

My personal history with makeup started with puberty; I wore heavy liquid foundation to cover my acne. My family disapproved of any makeup at all on religious grounds. However, I felt this left those of us non-beauties at a natural disadvantage and I wasn't satisfied to be forced to feel not-pretty when a little enhancement could make me feel good about my looks. I recall being very jealous of the girls with naturally perfect, smooth skin, in particular, and thus began also an OCD-like obsession with skincare that has lasted to this day...but I moved on as a young woman and embraced makeup. It was a crutch, but I think it was needed. Now, in my mid-30's, I'm more comfortable in my skin, literally, and now with wrinkles I think less foundation looks better. I've learned to wield eye makeup and lipstick in a way that makes me quite happy. Unlike clothing, I think makeup, especially lipstick, is something that makes me feel better about myself regardless of my weight or fitness level, for example (also, shoes can be like this, but then there's the high-heel dilemma...). Like, if I'm feeling fat and sick and exhausted and at the end of my rope...lipstick. I think I'm like Holly Golightly - "A girl just can't hear this kind of news without her lipstick on." (paraphrasing).

Edting to add - I think I feel like lipstick and makeup in general is somewhat of a social shield. I have this deep need to feel "above reproach" and well done makeup - because it's on my face and is so personal and noticeable - helps me feel this way. Some nice psychoanalytical self-reflection for the day...hehe...who knew lipstick could be so fraught??

This has been a fascinating thread, thanks for posting it Jaime and thanks to all who have replied. I don't feel like I have much to add; I'm much better at this sort of thing in person. Wish you were closer so we could chat over coffee! I can give you some very literal replies to the questions you asked

Do you need a positive self image to wear lipstick? Nope! On a slightly more expanded note, I wonder if being introverted plays a role in your line of thinking as others have touched on. Having met you I can say that, without a doubt, you can more than carry wearing bold lipstick. Doesn't at all feel strange or inauthentic to Jaime.

Do you style yourself to highlight your best or camouflage your worst? I had to think about this and have come up with... I do not actively try to do either*. Thinking of any part of myself as "flawed" or "bad" or "worse" feels so destructive and unproductive; I've worked long and hard to erase that kind of thinking. I figure my attributes, like most things in life, fall along a spectrum of what's currently socially desirable (which changes by the decade, anyway). And I've just decided not to really care where on the spectrum they fall; it's what I've got and it's mine! I really enjoy having the freedom to highlight, on any given day, whatever it is I feel like. Even if on some days that is nothing. Although if I am feeling down at all, highlighting nothing is rarely a good idea. On the actual make-up front I feel my best when I am wearing mascara and a tinted lip balm, so that's what I wear most days.

(* hair is always highlighted -> face is always highlighted)

Do you feel self conscious about dressing to the nines? I looooove to dress up -- as long as it feels authentic. I also enjoy being casual, so there's that. It took me a while to get here but I'd much rather be overdressed than underdressed. If being dressed to the nines includes full-face make up, then yes, I would be self conscious because that's inauthentic for me.

Do you hold yourself back in other ways? Hm. Probably? I mean, I'd probably dress like a glam/crazy 80s rock star if I it were totally cool to do so

(Una I relate so much to what you wrote about being an exotic (apparently), brainy minority kid. Same with your story and feelings regarding your husband and looks; I still get surprised at those kinds of compliments, it's just not how I see myself at all. Totally glad I got into punk as early as I did -- a big help in not letting young me's sense of self be directed by the idea of what others thought. Cuz, you know, F 'em! \m/ )

I think I remember my mum's comment about visiting our 'low class' acquaintances because I so loved Make-up Barbie and knew I'd never be getting one... Lol. That's funny NOW. But I still want a Make-up Barbie.

Anyhoo, a thought about being a minority: so I was always in the minority looks-wise until college (and then I had to take a timeout first day because I'd never ever seen so many Asians in one place before, lol)... and being beyond egotistical, my thought was I have so much freedom. No one knows what I 'should' look like or what 'the best' for me would be. It's probably good I had lots of starchy aunties willing to take a stab at whittling my big head down as much as possible

I wonder, sometimes, where the nature of one's ego really comes from...

Jaime, this is a wonderful thread; thank you, and thanks everyone for contributing such interesting replies. I am working to a tight deadline but I am pondering your questions. For now I will simply say that you are beautiful and brilliant and gracious, with or without lipstick!

wow - what a conversation ~ And it feels like one, the way this thread has flowed . I want to contribute, but am in Calgary on business and haven't had 5 minutes to process all of this. I also had wine at lunch, so there's that, More to come from me later today

Chiming back in to go wow over this thread! It never fails to surprise me how makeup seems to be a loaded issue...even here on a fashion board.

Everyone is here because of some interest in appearance. That doesn't mean that all of us (or even any of us) put the focus on dressing for traditional figure flattery, but we all care what our clothes look like and how we look in them. Has there ever been a K/R where the post was about finding something that looked bad? "I'm really looking for something dismal, is this bad enough? Oh, it is? Fantastic, thanks everyone, I'll keep it!!!". Not! So regardless of how that is manifested, I think we need to admit that we all want to look good.

So it always surprises me that that comes into question when makeup is the topic. Why should we have to even wonder if it means something shallow or unintelligent about us if we want to wear obvious makeup? My personal opinion is that is just as strong a factor in limiting women as the stereotype Rachylou remembers with her mom and the Makeup Barbie. Smart women don't wear makeup, women who want to trade on their sexuality do? I sort of think both are pretty insulting!

I want to be sure no one reads this as me thinking anyone in this thread has been buying into that split! We've all been talking about messages from others, either growing up or in a work environment. I'm not at all saying anyone here has been saying this to anyone else on the thread!!!

Azriphale may have gotten to the bottom of this...makeup is loaded because it is for the most part a female thing. The majority of men and children are not involved. But I'm still saying, why does society always have to pick apart the motives of women more than those of men? That's where the true feminist issue lies.

I'm back to the fun. I love the pretty colors and textures and the fun of putting it on. Why does it have to mean anything to anyone beyond that?!

Okay. So now I'm going to actually answer your questions:

Do you style yourself to highlight your best or camouflage your worst? Of course! We ALL do to some extent - to Janet and Peri's points. Otherwise we would not be on this forum. Personally, I highlight my neck (which I think is my best feature and Greg likes to see it - bless him) by having short hair and wearing turtle necks. But I also have big eyes with very long lashes that most people would highlight - yet I hide behind specs.

Do you feel self conscious about dressing to the nines?
I could do a fancy red carpet event each week, so probably not! But the outfits would have to be in line with my style preferences and relatively kind to my feet.

Do you hold yourself back in other ways?
I do adjust my outfit to suit my audience so that they feel comfortable - which I have blogged about before. In that way I guess I do hold back. (http://youlookfab.com/2014/03/.....-audience/). But it's always within my own set of style preferences and dressier way of putting together an outfit - which goes a long way to satisfying my needs.

Peri, I don't love make-up as much as you do, but I am HOPELESSLY DEVOTED to my mascara, lipstick, eye-liner, blush, eye-brow pencil and tinted moisturizer. I don't think you can create a polished appearance without the definition of make-up - which I have also blogged about before.

Jaime, thanks for responding with grace and thought to all who commented here. YOU ROCK.

Great thread, Jaime.

Makeup is not really a part of my fashion identity at the moment. Im not really sure why, except that I don't find it interesting the way I find clothes interesting, and most of the time I don't wear any makeup at all. Interestingly, on days I feel like my face looks blah, I'll put on mascara. Always mascara, never lipstick. I think it's because I think I look *better* with mascara, whereas I just look * different* with lipstick. My lips are pretty good on their own but my eyes could use some help! I also like that I can put on my mascara in the morning and not reapply all day (I use a black, waterproof one that doesn't budge.). With lipstick, I feel like the maintenance kills me. It looks good when fresh, but on me at least I feel like the polished quality declines sharply once it's feathering, rubbing off, etc. I like RATE clothes but not RATE makeup, but I'm also RATE enough that I can't be bothered to always be touching it up.

I hate touching up makeup and reapplying lipstick all day long. The makeup I use stays put all day long until I wash it off, but lipstick is a royal pain,

I definitely do my best to camouflage my worst and highlight my best, and wear a bit of BB cream, eyeliner and lipstick. I generally don't wear brightly coloured lipstick, however, but instead something that looks like it could be natural.

As far as holding myself back, I am really attracted to bright colours and contrasting patterns. When DD was small, I would buy her striped leggings and a patterned tunic or dress where the colours matched or complimented each other. I dressed her in lime green and navy or hot pink and orange or any other fabulous colour combination. And each time I would bring home a new outfit, DH would laugh and say, "YOU want to wear that, don't you?" And he was right.

But being realistic, a grown woman cannot wear crazy colours AND crazy patterns all at once and look sane. I mean, I would have LOVED to wear those outfits myself, but a more "grown-up" version wouldn't have been what attracted me to them in the first place, so it would have been pointless to try to somehow recreate the look for myself. As DD has grown and become a middle-schooler, it turns out her style is FAR more subdued than I want to dress her, so it is good I did it while I had the chance!

So as far as clothing goes, I am not at all adventurous in terms of colour. I very much feel that colour enhances flaws more than a darker palette. I like asymmetrical things and unusual things, but all black is more my style. So in terms of clothing I definitely "hide" behind things that feel safer for me to wear.

Peri, you raise some very good points that made me nod my head in agreement, but I still maintain questions like these are good to discuss on a fashion forum because, like it or not, most of us have some baggage when it comes to our appearance.

Figuring out my feelings about red lipstick made me realize how conscious I always was as a young female to never allow my appearance take precedence when I was in "serious" mode. Threads like this one make me wonder why that was so important to me--and if I want to continue on that path. Fashion and makeup ARE fun, but, depending on our personal histories, our reactions to both can be quite convoluted and complex.

You know, I'm not really sure what the psychology is behind my love of makeup. Do you need a positive self-image? That's an interesting question and I have no idea what the answer is. I think it takes far more confidence to go to work with no makeup on . There is your bare face, unadorned, for the world to see. That takes a lot of confidence. Now that said, I also think that going without makeup in a professional work situation is as jarring as going to the gym with carefully lined lips and eyes. I don't wear lipstick (or any makeup )because I'm bouncing around all pleased with myself but because it adds definition , polish and interest to my relatively undefined features. Jaime, you have strong features, and more contrast between your hair and skin than I do . Same with women like Aida, Una, Janet - all of whom have stronger looks and wear makeup differently. I LOVE makeup, the art, the science, the theory, the branding, marketing, all of it. It's interesting to wonder where it fits in on one's psychological makeup - to use the word in a different way. I will admit right here on this forum that my goal used to be to ensure that no-one mistook me for a man. With short hair and a rather minimal style of dressing, I was worried/insecure about looking too , well, I won't say it here. But you can read between the lines. I needed to make sure I looked and felt like a woman, not a guy. Makeup would do that.

Dressing to the nines? That means so many different things to different people . No, I never feel self-conscious about being dressed up. And I don't hold anything back. I have no creative side waiting to bust out - no inner rock musician , no latent artistic statement needing to be made. Boring

Styling to camouflage or highlight? Eh - maybe camouflage my abs, or lack thereof. Highlight? No, just dress flatteringly - not to attract attention to. I'm way to old for that I've found the more I've relaxed into who I am and what I look like and how I like to dress, the better I feel and the more pleasant a person I am to be around.

I couldn't be more delighted by how this thread has grown. I will take the time to answer you all later in my day when I have more time - I am learning so much from each response I want to be sure I give each one my full attention. Meanwhile I have read and appreciated each response. What a generous, wise group of women is my first conclusion!

Shevia, first of all, I always think you look darling, so if you're trying to hide flaws, you're doing a great job.

Rachy, I always wanted a Barbie too, but was never given one.

Una, although I'm not the least bit exotic, I know what you mean about your husband. I couldn't believe my handsome future husband thought I was attractive IN THE LEAST. I was the smart nerdy girl. People knew me for being good at math.

I wear makeup just to look normal. That's my goal in my outfits, too - to look normal. I wear a powder foundation, eyeliner (upper only), light pink/coral lipstick, and eyebrow powder. I started using the eyebrow powder after I went grey. I thought my face looked like it was disappearing.

Agree this is one of those threads that makes me love the forum to infinity and beyond.

A friend and I often talk about how using makeup for us creates a standard we don't want to feel obliged to uphold to feel like ourselves. Being Team RATE and also Team Low Maintenance, I feel that going all out with makeup daily leaves me no room to step it up - kind of like the recent post on how wearing all your dressiest items all the time can create its own challenges.

And I worry about becoming too dependent on it psychologically. I had a good friend in high school who couldn't bear to be seen without FULL-ON makeup. One day when she was sick I swung by to drop off homework and she was mortified to be seen without her "face". Meanwhile, my first thought was "she looks so beautiful without all that mascara and foundation!". Obviously it stuck with me all these years. I remain a Sephora and Ulta junkie and find makeup a fascinating, joyful outlet - but I also want to be able to camp and travel without worrying about it. This is just me, of course. To each her own

JAileen, too funny. My DH was also the guy I would never have snagged in high school - the hot but smart jock that wouldn't have looked twice (or even once) at me. Fortunately we met in law school when everyone had grown up a bit.

And yes, Jaime, we MUST meet! Nothing beats meeting YLF sisters, and you are plainly a kindred spirit of mine. Can we go thrifting?

Wow! Loaded questions and thought provoking responses.

Though I consider myself reasonably confident, with a healthy body image, I DO struggle with owning 'pretty'. I wear very little makeup, if any - and keep my hair wash-and-wear short. It is easier for me to dress up, wear body con, or bright colour, than it is for me to do my hair or don make-up!

There is some psychology behind this, I am sure.

Gosh - this is SUCH an interesting thread!! I'm at work, so shouldn't write more - but am enjoying reading and imagining out responses in my head!

I feel that I am not confident enough to go withOUT lipstick!

I don't really think in terms of either highlight my best or camouflaging my worst, though no doubt I am doing both unconsciously. I don't in any way feel self conscious about dressing to the nines, no.

WRT makeup, what I wear depends a bit on what is currently in fashion makeupwise, except that as a general rule I dislike the look of heavy makeup so no matter how fashionable the plastered-on look might become, I will not be wearing that much. I might use Tarte lip crayon, or I might use mascara, or I might use a bit of blusher, but almost never all together. I certainly never wear any kind of foundation or eye shadow. I might wear eye liner when very heavy eye makeup is in fashion but currently that feels too heavy to me so I don't wear it at all. Basically, I think un-made-up faces have more beauty than made-up ones, so to the extent that I wear makeup it is more a fashion thing than a beauty thing. I find it very interesting that different places have different norms WRT makeup. Heavy makeup seems a lot more popular in parts of America, some Eastern European cities, and parts of south America than it is in, say, Britain, The Netherlands, Denmark or France.

Sarah

It occurs to me (this is a deep topic, it really is), the desire to look good is not necessarily a desire to... alter body parts, or showcase them, or obscure them - if that makes any sense. It doesn't necessarily have to be a judgement, beyond the level of a mere observation. But you can definitely take it there, have debilitating feelings of inferiority or something. Not wanting to go without makeup is different from actually refusing to leave the house without it - like you'd rather the house fell on you than evacuate in an emergency. It's like, do you sleep in makeup in case someone breaks in and sees you?

Also I agree there a tribal/geographical component to wearing makeup. I'm from Hippieland, right? Hippies like it natural to the point of unkempt. Coiffing looks bad to hippies...

Wow, I have learned so much. A few generalizations I would make:
-Makeup attitudes change with age. Younger women feel more confident going without. Older women, whether to feel less invisible, or because they feel less apt to be misjudged, are more likely to wear makeup.
-Easiness or uneasiness with makeup often starts with our mothers, and is determined by are social/cultural group. So some of us more or less take it for granted and others have a more fraught relationship with 'face paint'.
-There is a sense that some light makeup to look well groomed is a different category than more bold looks involving bright or dark lips as a sort of statement. This is something I am going to think more about.
Again thank you all for your enlightening and thoughtful comments!

Aziraphale It is indeed a fine balancing line between invisibility and being seen as overdoing it. And clearly a gender specific one too.
Sterling red lipstick never fit in my self image either. And then I wore it, and my personality remained intact. Interesting that being disappointed leads you to red lipstick - do you ever wear it?
missvee I would say you sound like you have a healthy neutral attitude toward makeup.
skylurker I am a confident person in a lot of arenas but seem to have some issues when it comes to certain appearance related things. I do agree that some people hide behind their makeup just as some people hide behind their lack of it.
deb I do think wearing more bold, makeup for makeup sake can be more psychologically challenging than more natural looks
bettycrocker agree with you completely about long wearing lipstick. It is amazing how few of us simply see putting our best foot forward as so straight forward.
Sally Reading through the comments make it clear that makeup attitudes change with age. Agree that women can be beautiful with bold lipstick or none at all.
Gaylene Agree strongly about aging allowing us to play with fashion. I am so much braver now that I know no one is likely to confuse the message I am broadcasting.
Roxanna yay! Yes, it is so liberating to allow ourselves to see the positive instead of worrying about fixing flaws.
Sally Yes, who knows where we will be at 80?
DonnaF there is a clear connection between aging, feeling invisible and wearing makeup. What once seemed showy now seems necessary just to show up.
Jenava who knew lipstick could be so fraught indeed. I don't agree with your self description as a non-beauty all fwiw.
Aida coffee and perhaps some blueberries :-)? You again show yourself wise beyond your years.
Rachy The nature of your ego clearly comes from a very special place.
Suz right back at you. If and when you have time, I will be delighted to read your words.
LisaP - Glad you saw this thread since you inspired it! I am sure you know you are not at all boring! I have wondered about why some people see makeup as the default and some see it as a somewhat risque option and I am sure there are lots of social/cultural factors involved.
Peri you are so right about the female thing. Maybe as male cosmetics become for acceptable the tables will turn?
Diana I wonder if this will change as you get older.
Echo hmm, I do think there are constraints on all of us of some form or the other - it sounds like you have found a good compromise.
JAileen thank you. Makeup to look normal seems to be more common than makeup to create a look. Interesting.
Una your place or mine?;-)
Runcarla I wonder if this thread is going to reconsider.
anne whenever you have the chance!
Lyn D. yes, there are lots of women that see makeup as pretty basic to their grooming!
MFF Definitely a cultural and familial thing. I guess I am more interested in makeup as a fashion thing than a beauty thing, hmm, I need to think about this.
Rachy it is definitely subgroup related as these comments have shown.
Angie no thank you for creating the place and setting the tone where we can meet from all over the world to have these discussions. You are authentic from the inside out and it has had a wonderful influence on us all. Extra big hug back!

Let me start by saying that I LOVE makeup, lipstick ... the whole ball of wax. I try to keep to a look that enhances but doesn't shout "look at my makeup". I get a chuckle when someone says that I'm lucky to not have to wear makeup. I ALWAYS have on a light foundation, eyeshadow in a natural color, eyeliner pencil (have many colors that I love), mascara, eyebrow pencil and something on my lips (I prefer sheer colors in lipsticks and lip gloss...don't mind reapplying often). I have a mild case of rosacea and most often don't need blush. Takes me about 5 minutes in the morning. I will add a bolder eye if going out in the evening or to a play etc.

I have forgone that whole "contouring" craze that's going on now. Just too much work for my mind.

Makeup is so personal, and I have co-workers who are on both ends of the spectrum. I will say that as we age, eyebrow definition is one of the easiest ways to enhance our features. But IMHO, makeup (or not) should be about how a person wants to look/feel to herself.

Like clothing choices, we should aim for feeling good in our own skin, whatever that means LOL.

Great thread, and I love reading the posts here!!

I had to come back and add that my dear mother lightly colored her hair, had a definite hair style, and wore makeup till the day she died. She also always dressed nicely.

When out in public, men in her age group would speak to her, and more often than not, if they had a wife standing next to them, most of the time the wife would have no discernible hairdo, and no makeup etc...the wife would totally ignore my mom...almost like they were offended.

We would chuckle that mom was "invisible" to these women.

Oh my. What a fascinating thread. Haven't read all the responses yet, but I've been mulling this one over. I think your question goes straight to the heart of a lot of what we all try to do with self-presentation.

I'll say straight out that I got 99 problems but body image ain't one. In general, I'm fairly comfortable with my appearance. I don't consider myself a great beauty but I do feel lucky to have been blessed with the raw materials to wear bold colours and avant-garde silhouettes. But there are many other aspects of my self-image which contribute to the way I present myself.

Here's the thing. I went to school with a bunch of rich kids, which meant that clothes were very important. Unlike many of them, I didn't have much money to spend on clothes, but I learned to sew in my early teens and found that wearing cool stuff that nobody else had generated a bit of kudos. Not much, but enough to get by. Clothes were my armour and fashion became crucial to reinforcing my self-image at a fairly young age. I can't say that's changed much, and as I've grown older my confidence has grown and with it my willingness to experiment. It's part and parcel of who I am.

With regard to make-up, I don't wear much of it. My problem skin and irritable eyes are both best left alone. I don't use much more than SP15 mattifying moisturiser and micropowder. But lippy? That's an essential in my book, along with dyed hair and eyewear. I'm much happier when I feel coloured in.

Angie, lisap and others make a good point about make-up being essential in some places for a polished, professional look, while rachylou rightly points out that other cultures favour a natural look. Around here, it's neither here nor there. Some ladies do, some don't, nobody's going to make explicit assumptions and so I'm happy to have the choice.

Circling back to self-image, we hack our appearance for all sorts of reasons. For me, some of those hacks are vital to how I feel about myself. For instance, I rarely go without lipstick and I hate leaving the house in an ill-conceived outfit. Some people might look at me and think I'm brave to dress the way I do, but in fact this is the armour and I don't feel safe without it.

So to answer your question, no, I've never needed a positive self-image to wear a bright lip, but it went a long way to helping me create one.

Lipstick is so automatic to me. It never occurred to me that someone would feel they're somehow not worthy to wear it. That made me sad. But it's a good example of how people can hold themselves back from trying things they might enjoy.