Ledonna, thanks. My reply wasn't geared at anyone just in general. I wouldn't wear the skirt as laying a claim on your culture but because I appreciate the beauty. No one knows my struggles or experiences nor do I know theirs. I just thought it was ok to like a print and wear it, regardless where it is from. I am not talking about headresses or things specific to painful movements or exclamations or native garb. Just on a fashion site saying the print, like many, is lovely and I wish people could see someone wear it and just think it's flattering or neat or interesting or unique.
So many things can be hurtful in life, was hoping a skirt bought with good intentions didn't need to be another.

Sorry for the myriad typos.

It's complicated.

Traci, I think you've answered your own question: if you don't feel comfortable wearing the skirt, then don't wear it. It depends very much on your personal social/cultural context, and it's clearly a controversial choice this season

Ledonna,
I deeply appreciate what you've brought to this thread and on the whole I agree with you, although I'd like to add this to your words of wisdom. We're now at a moment in time when cultural diversity matters more than ever, as does art and innovation. The history of the wax prints that produced the dashiki design is a great example of what can happen when cultures borrow from each other, which is something worth preserving in my opinion.

I'm growing ever more ambivalent about the narratives around cultural appropriation right now, which seem to have degenerated from shared appreciation into reactionary identity policing. I'm all for some healthy pushback against offensive commodification and mimicry but when we put proscriptive boundaries of ownership around artworks we limit the possibility of making anything new.

I may have a bit more to say about this later, but in the meantime here's a really interesting article in defence of cultural appropriation...


approprio

I found the article interesting. I read it's entirety while I don't necessary agree with the author i do find myself nodding in agreement at some things..

I admit, I haven't had time to read through all of this, but I did feel that a question came to mind: Wouldn't it be more fun it none of this stuff was an issue or identified as PC and we could just enjoy exploring other cultures whether that exploration was wearing their clothing and hairstyles or visiting their countries or making their food or whatever without fear of repercussion?

In a perfect world that would bd lovely. Unfortunately and i dont mean to sound like fhe bad vuu but we dont live in a perfecg world. We live in a world where many avoid a reality that is staring them rigjt in the face. Then to say oh i just like the fashion without the injustices that are behind it is called privlage no matter how it's dressed up and trotted out and fed to the masses.

I hear what some of you are saying and there are other articles similar to the one Approprio posted that explore some ways in which appropriation is inevitable and potentially positive (https://www.google.com/amp/s/w.....le/411292/). We could have a long discussion about the larger implications of this issue, but let's not forget that this post started with a very specific question: Could I potentially cause someone pain if I wear this skirt, specifically to Africans and/or African Americans?

I would love to live in a world where anything goes, but the reality is that I (as a white person) can wear that skirt and will be judged as "cute" whereas if a person of color wears that skirt she potentially comes across as aggressive and unprofessional. This happens in my city! It seems so simple-the choice to wear something or not, but I'd rather make the choice to eliminate a few patterns and styles from my closet in an attempt to build bridges to unity rather than rub salt in someone's wounds. I think we would all agree that clothes are not just clothes-that is why we are on this forum. Clothes are full of symbolism about personal, cultural, gender, and religious identity and I think it is respectful and empathetic to at least consider what is and is not acceptable to appropriate, even if the answers do not come easily.

Well, it's all very interesting. Esp at a very personal, this is just how I feel level.

I've argued with black friends about Eminem. As with the Beatles... well I did think it odd that the Beatles - yes, the Beatles - were a bunch of English white boys singing Black American style back in the '60s; my initial reaction to Eminem was the same for the 90s or whatever. But I do like what both do. (Incidentally, the arguments would go like this: 'I don't know, does Eminem count?' 'Eminem is so fine. He's my husband.')

When dd was little, who is black by the way (and legally speaking was my ward), I made her use chopsticks at Panda and our favourite Chinese restaurant - because we're CALIFORNIAN. I suck at using chopsticks as well, but it's embarrassing not to use them. That is a mark of being a foreigner - i.e., from Minnesota. Lol. (OT: it's super hilarious to me when the Mexican Mexicans at work mock our Mexican American manager for her love of 'Chinese food,' i.e., Panda.) (Also, my mother continues to nag me to use chopsticks in the same way I nag dd.)

And then you know, when I've encountered real Chinese from China and real Africans from Africa, they turn up their nose at the diaspora. They feel no comraderie with us. I'd feel very ambivalent about the educational kimono day, in approprio's link. Because... well for one, my uncle spent 40+ years in Japan teaching Asian American history. That is so mind bogglingly weird. 40 years an Asian spent trying to basically explain Americans who think they're Asian to people who think they're the real Asians.

I don't know. I wonder sometimes if being Californian isn't the ultimate decisive factor in ethnicity. If in other states/places, it's easier to be self-righteous / politely sensitive about culture...

Rachylou you are so so doggone funny you make me giggle out loud. Funny. Funnily enough I can follow your whole conversation and thought pattern. lol

I think as a black woman who has a bunch of other ethnicity mixed in at a certain point I've become self aware.

Africans I've met and know consider black Americans, Americans. While many blacks I know refer to themselves as Afro Americans.

At the end of the day i think being politically correct sucks. Wear what you love and love what you wear. If you feel uncomfortable in it frame it take a picture of it make it in to artwork or give it away.

Remember what may be just a pretty skirt to you may also be someones heritage.

Yeah, I mean, I feel a lot of fatigue when it comes to identity politics and tone policing, and I understand the angle that New Statesman article is coming from. But here's the big thing: we're finally getting to a point in history where *some* white people are able to own *some* of the damage we've done; we're finally learning to feel uncomfortable with our own history. And of course, yeah, it would be nice to go back to not being uncomfortable -- ignorance is bliss, right?

The whole idea of being able to do whatever you want, wear whatever you want, say whatever you want, without consequences -- it's a very privileged idea. Not just in terms of white privilege, but in terms of class and gender as well (ie, men aren't expected to follow as nearly as many rules of dress and presentation as women are). Every other ethnicity and race has been expected to walk a very fine line in America -- acting "just white enough" but not "too white" -- so, if white people have to walk that tightrope now, so be it. If we never have to experience that hesitation and discomfort, seeing ourselves from outside ourselves, does anything ever really change at a deeper-than-institutional level?

Ledonna, thank you so much for putting yourself out there with our group of women over and over. You have become a teacher to me. A guide.

La Ped, your comment made me think : there is a big difference between FREEDOM and a FREE FOR ALL. One shows respect, decency , inclusion and harmony. The other is just chaos.

Does this mean I have to hide my African art? I happen to love African art, and have several pieces on display at home (I'm Caucasian).. Is this the equivalent of wearing an ethnic piece of clothing? I had an African-American guest recently who complimented the pieces, but now I'm worried that he was secretly offended. Arrgh.

I am not very familiar with this (largely American?) problem, but am interested to learn more. However, with all due respect to all who have commented, I must admit that for me, reading the comments has, in several cases, been like listening to people who are speaking in secret codes. Could someone please explain exactly what "message" an Afro-American person will get (and why her feelings will be hurt) when a white person wears that skirt?

Well for one, the Cat, coloured people don't get to own anything. Not the clothes on your back, not even your own body. That's our American history.

AHEM.
As a native Minnesotan I do quite well with chopsticks (which BTW is also a producer of chopsticks).

Of course I know you meant no disrespect to Minnesotans Rachylou, I just use this as a gentle example to cut to the heart of the cultural appropriation debate. I believe that labelling and classifying of people into preconceived categories based on their ethnicities or origins and therefore prescribing what is appropriate for them to wear, display, or eat is doing us no favors as we move forward as a global culture.

What Ledonna mentioned:
When Black women have to fight for acceptance with the same styles a young white woman can be admired for, what message does that send to Black women and girls? … It says that our natural beauty isn’t beautiful at all – and that our features are only appealing when they’re adopted by white women.
is awful and outrageous. The example of "white' women appropriating 'black' styles is an especially sensitive one given the reprehensible racism we still have in the US. Yet I don't understand how calling out white women for wearing African styles will help.

Ledonna, thank you for stepping in, unfair though it may be. You should not have to bear the burden of trying to explain this nation's history regarding black people to those of us who live here. There are great documentaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_(film) and https://itunes.apple.com/US/movie/id1188107275

On the topic of cultural appropriation, there's this...http://www.npr.org/sections/co.....act-indefe
"Cultural appropriation can feel hard to get a handle on, because boiling it down to a two-sentence dictionary definition does no one any favors. Writer Maisha Z. Johnson offers an excellent starting point by describing it not only as the act of an individual, but an individual working within a "power dynamic in which members of a dominant culture take elements from a culture of people who have been systematically oppressed by that dominant group."

...and this...http://everydayfeminism.com/20.....opriation/
"But keep in mind that changing oppressive behavior in your everyday life isn’t about being responsible for other people’s feelings – but it is about taking responsibility for your own actions that can cause other people harm."

Dashielle (ann)

Thank you very much.

I stand by my statements I said earlier. I'm not a representative of my culture I am one of a myriad of voices that identify as an African American. There are many countries that have been appropriated or gutted. The native culture weather from invasion appropriation or if you want to call it appreciation. We can continue to turn a blind eye and call it fashion and call it appreciation but if I as a black woman am asked a question about whether you think something it's fashion and whether I think something is telling my history. And I say from my own experience from my own Journey that everyday I am black. I am black in a white world. I am black when I go home and black when I go to work I am black and I put on the clothes in the climates that were downed by other cultures but were appropriated by Europeans standards it is what I face everyday as a black woman. The original question was how would this person feel if they saw me wearing this garment and I gave my honest opinion feedback. I leave you all and this conversation. I respect everyone's opinion but I also see it as no matter how many conversations we have some will choose not to get it and that is where I leave you all and this conversation. As always be well on your fashion Journey.

Of course, Laurinda, of course! That is the whole irony right there in the nutshell.

And not to mention, Minnesota is famous for its Asian population. Yes. The mentions always go CA, NY and MN!

Ledonna, quite right. The article makes a relevant argument but it's by no means watertight. These things never are. It's also worth noting that it's written from the perspective of British multiculturalism, where race politics play out over somewhat different lines, and for obvious historical reasons.

I could say all kinds of things at this point about what this means to me, but maybe it's better to explain why, with a more personal story.

I grew up in racially mixed suburb in London, and that diversity was something we valued and celebrated. Yes, there were always tensions in daily life, but by and large we were, and still are, very proud to live and work together in a city so rich with variety. You don't need to take my word for it either. Thousands of other people from my home town will tell you the same.

Here's a piece by Zadie Smith, award-winning writer and woman of colour, written shortly after the election of POTUS#45. Smith grew up in the same neighbourhood as I did - we never met, but friends of the family knew her quite well. Her skin is a different colour from mine, but what she says here is about my life too, and the streets I grew up on. It was our patch, but it could have been one of any number in the city.

[quote]

“You were such a champion of ‘multiculturalism.’ Can you admit now that it has failed?” When I hear these questions I am reminded that to have grown up in a homogeneous culture in a corner of rural England, say, or France, or Poland, during the 1970s, 1980s, or 1990s, is to think of oneself as having been simply alive in the world, untroubled by history, whereas to have been raised in London during the same period, with, say, Pakistani Muslims in the house next door, Indian Hindus downstairs, and Latvian Jews across the street, is thought of, by others, as evidence of a specific historical social experiment, now discredited.

Of course, as a child I did not realize that the life I was living was considered in any way provisional or experimental by others: I thought it was just life. And when I wrote a novel about the London I grew up in, I further did not realize that by describing an environment in which people from different places lived relatively peaceably side by side, I was “championing” a situation that was in fact on trial and whose conditions could suddenly be revoked.


[unquote]

So yeah. I guess what I'm trying to present is the flip side. If I'm prone to take generalisations about racial identity very personally, it's because I come from a place where they weren't the absolute. None of us were completely colour blind, but it wasn't what defined us either. To us, culture was whatever we shared with our neighbours, and we behaved like human beings do when living together in a climate of mutual respect.

I'll say one more thing. I have lived my whole life in the suburbs (and some in the city) of an American city that has had very significant roles and upheavals in race relations over the years. Because of that, I have seen firsthand how painful the aftermath of oppression can be. I decided long ago that I, as a white-skinned person who only truly knows the privilege of being in the mainstream majority, do NOT get to decide what is offensive to anyone in the minority. I prefer to err on the side of being respectful.

Ledonna and Rachylou, your comments are so insightful, complex and deep. Thanks again!

The Cat - this topic is not just a largely American problem. At the end of the day this is about marginalisation (like Suz said) and the tension between minority/majority, invisibility/visibility, centre/periphery, differing ideas of unification/differensiation.

A related issue is depicted in the recent feature film "Sámi blood" by Amanda Kernell. Her film addresses the oppression and ignorance of Sámi cultural history in Scandinavia. Review in the Washington Post and theNew York Times .

Translated to a Scandinavian fashion context, one could ask if you would offend someone by wearing one or several items with Sámi origin, like....

  • #1 mittons
  • #2 a white fur hat
  • #3 a scarf
  • #4-7 a piece of silver jewellery
  • #8-9 a cape
  • #10 a modernised (in lack of better word) dress (Urban Outfitters)

Would it matter...

  • ...who made it: a Sámi, any person skilled in Sámi handcraft, a factory made item?
  • ...how you got it: a gift, a souvenir from a holiday trip, from your local market stall, H&M, Zara?

To insiders an original Sámi piece of clothing or jewellery could tell a whole story about reginal, local and/or family history (and social relations) that would not be apparent to outsiders.

Like the original question of this post: Is this ok for me to wear?
The answer can only be ancored by the wearer when tuned in to the social setting - and it is therefore manyfold. Insiders, outsiders and hybrids would provide different, sometimes opposing, answers - also within the same cultural group.

The privelige of the majority is to not have to see or deal with structural difference on a daily basis. However, a minority group can also be preveliged, i.e. compared to other minorities or within the group. It all depends on the perspective and scope.

ETA: I'm not in favor of categorising people, but I don't think it helps to deny that categories and stereotypes excist and is part of our peception of the world (as are histories of oppression and cultural trauma). It is a way to deal with the world at many levels and it also has a function, sometimes we disagree with it and it becomes trouble (i.e. passports, citizenship, social welfare, etc NB! In a Scandinavian context these words have different connotations than in a US context!). I believe that scritunizing these functions - and being openminded and humble about our own ignorance - is a way to approch it. And I love jokes about cultural stereotypes because the lay it all bare, which shows the excistence and ridicule at the same time. *must stop now. I can go on forever*

Anyway, I've really appreciated this discussion. It has been very interesting and educational. Thank you all!

Sorry, I got carried away because the hybrid identity is so present in many aspects of my life. As a child I was the only non-white person in school. My first experience of "blending in" (with my Asian features) was in my 20's on a trip to Asia. And it took quite some years to acknowledge consiously that I will never fully "blend in" in a Scandinavian context, even if some of my friend say they don't see colour. And I agree with Janet.

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Well said and thorough, harmonica, in such a small space (!)

One thing about the US, I would say lots of people don't pay attention to what sort of white they or others are... but then lots do. The traditional bastions of power here exclude many many peoples of specific European descents, and that privilege is still being handed down. I cogitate on that, extrapolate, magnify, and it's very illuminating. It's also what can make it all very hard to understand, because you can be privileged and feel no privilege, because you are in fact being excluded.


rachylou: that's an interesting point, because being the "wrong sort of white" is a dynamic that would be very familiar to many Brits. We have a long and bitter history of sectarian violence and class warfare which is getting ready to explode any moment now, but that's another story.

To quote harmonica:


"a minority group can also be preveliged, i.e. compared to other minorities or within the group. It all depends on the perspective and scope."

This strikes me as the biggest danger of identity politics and intersectionality, not only as it relates to race, but also to gender and sexuality. It pits everyone against each other and demands zero-sum decisions about increments of privilege which are all but impossible to unpack. I fear that rather than levelling the playing field, it's perpetuating the very inequalities it's supposed to counter.

If I thought for a moment that setting the boundaries of cultural exchange and arranging ourselves into neat social categories would help redress that balance, I would be all for it. As it is, I'm seeing multiple cases of people being singled out, bullied and destroyed over the correct way to use cultural signage and not a single instance of anyone's life being improved in a meaningful way. Not one.

I say this not because I think we should all have equal access, or because I long for a world in which cultural autonomy is erased in favour of globalised normcore. Far from it - that's pretty much what we have now and it's dictated to us by a vanishingly small elite. Appropriation in this context is toxic, and anyone involved in cultural creation at that level deserves to be challenged. They should expect it.

But between individuals? That's when we need to be sensitive to localised contexts. I'm not suggesting that we should all just wear whatever we like with no thought for what it means. Nobody here does that. We do however need to be aware of what we're letting ourselves in for when we start laying down these rules in our daily lives, because that's the only space we have any freedom to shape for ourselves.

approprio: not sure I expressed myself clearly and I'm not sure I'm able to. I will make a try. This is what I had in mind regarding the quote: "a minority group can also be preveliged, i.e. compared to other minorities or within the group. It all depends on the perspective and scope."

The Sámi peoples in Scandinavia have suffered, and still suffer, from oppression. No doubt. However, some Sámi are pretty excluding by putting forward an attitude of being the right kind of Sámi (it ties in with the debate on being "too black" or "not black enough") and other being a lesser Sámi (for instance if you can't speak any of the Sámi languages or are a mix of several ethnicities). Some discourses also thrive on a kind of victim rethorics and come out as almost pitiful. Compared to indigenous peoples around the world and other minorities in Norway (i.e. the kven people), the Sámi are quite successful (a Sámi parliament, changes in the constitutional law etc ). Still, the cultural trauma of oppression is still very much alive and needs to be addressed. Sámi peoples are subject to marginalisation and more work needs to be done. I think part of the complexity comes from contradictory, even incommenurable, concepts are at play at once. Hmmm... maybe this was more confusing and too locally anchored.

Dashielle ( Ann ) , GREAT links. Thank you !

...and Janet ...AMEN !!!!!!!!!!

Freedom as a free for all just means not caring about other people - that causes problems in communities as societies. Every man for himself just doesn't work. With real freedom comes responsibility and part of that responsibility is respect for others.

And one of the privileges of being privileged is that you lose nothing by not examining oneself vis a vis others who are not as privileged. In other words, there is no incentive for some people with power ( historical and otherwise ) to examine their power and its effects on others. In fact, it protects and insulates their power in many ways.

harmonica, thanks! that's an excellent example, exactly what I'm talking about.

Cultural trauma can only be truly acknowledged by adequately addressing the structural inequality and exploitation that produced it. On the other hand, separatism rarely fixes anything, but it's often a good excuse for bigots to shout at "impure" women for wearing something they don't approve of.

Ok, I kind of "get it", though I still think it is a complicated issue (but so do many others, as far as I can see).
Thanks to all who have broadened my horizon on this complex matter.

Thank you for starting this topic Traci, your skirt is indeed very beautiful and you obviously considered the issues at large before purchasing.

It is very telling your inner dialogue had prevented you from wearing your skirt and is probably quite representative of my feeling too.

How to navigate a multi cultural society with respect is complex and by the nature the parameters will always be shifting. I am, no matter how you slice and dice it, viewing the world through a privileged lens. I hope to widen my 'whitewashed' views through reading credible alternative sources. The groups marginalised by society should not have to bear the burden of enlightening society to their injustice.

Listen, consider and continue to adapt with a view to respect is the best one can do.

That's an interesting point to make about inner voice, Ruby Tuesday. Really awfully interesting. Poignant actually...