HELENA I think your 2nd observation is interesting. I get why you feel navy is a colour for yourself . I wonder why Angie sees red as a neutral for herself.

Star, I obviously can't speak for Angie, but I think the distinction between fashion neutral and 'body harmony' neutral may come into play. A fashion neutral in my understanding is a colour that can be paired liberally with just about any other colour - which red does in Angie's wardrobe and style!

Helena - interesting observations about the colour navy. You're right: when I wear it , it's not that I don't "like" it, it just doesn't connect to my skin tone, hair colour or personality at all. Yesterday I wore a navy Lulu cropped scuba hoodie over a white t-shirt and navy OTF Lulu pants - both castoffs from my daughter. Black boots, black puffer and black purse. I was deeply conscious of how unusual an outfit this was for me, yet my husband must have told me 3 times that day how good it looked ! I give up.

I was laying in bed thinking about this thread last night (tossing and turning from the effects of the Shingles vaccine I had yesterday - UGH) and the concept of contrast , which isn't new but one I keep forgetting about . I prefer lower contrast looks, especially for fall/winter, and will have to keep that in mind when I am tempted to buy something. Even though I am rebelling against planning, thinking, experimenting, organizing and focusing on my wardrobe, I am going to have to do some sort of planning for it to be cost-effective and not wasteful.

Happy New Year! I woke up to all these smart comments.

Helena, I think you are dead on the money about the relationship of contrast to pattern. I like to wear navy (or more often, dark or medium denim) and white together but I do not wear items with large navy and white patterns. The exceptions to this might be my batik patterned summer dress and my Zara summer dress-- but in the first, the blues are mostly medium to light, with just a bit of dark and the squares in the pattern are not larger than my eyes. There is also enough delicacy in the second dress's pattern that it does not overwhelm me. A dress with a large print sharp navy/ white would wear me.

In the leopard print sweater, the pattern is small enough and graduated (there is white, pale blue, darker blue).

The blue and white stripe is a shart contrast and quite bold and does threaten to overwhelm me. But I wear it anyway. For me, it works. I can see another person with my exact same colouring saying, nope, too much.

Anyway, you may well be right with your thoughts on blue and why it feels to you. like a "colour." Brown has always felt like a colour to me and on me. I love brown and used to wear it surprisingly well-- from chocolate to taupe to oatmeal -- back when my hair was dark blonde. But it never became a primary neutral for me. Similar to black.

Then again...Angie has green eyes and while she wears green, green isn't a neutral for her. :). So your neutrals do not *have* to echo your colouring if you don't care about that!

I tend to think hair is the more important aspect of colouring to focus on if outfit cohesion is a goal. If you have footwear and or bag or some other element of your outfit (could be your top, bottom, scarf, coat, etc.) in the colour of your hair, this becomes outfit glue.

• Hence: silver and/or grey for me.
• Gold and/or cream (and now she's dark blonde, whiskey) for Angie.
• Gold or bronze or brass or light brown for Brooklyn.
• Black for anyone with black hair. (I am so jealous because this is easy to source!)
• Red or reddish brown (cordovan?) or burgundy for those with red hair or reddish tones to their hair.

Back to your blouse, Helena -- it's almost a false plain. The pattern is very restrained and while the individual neutrals are high contrast to each other, the dots are so small here they almost blend. Also, part of the blouse is sheer so there is the graduated tone of skin showing through. This makes it "softer" and more romantic. Less bold and graphic.

Pattern scale is definitely its own subject! I have learned through trial and error that patterns need to harmonize with the size of my features to work for me. I think this may be because I'm on the small side, with low to medium contrast colouring. This is how I sometimes (as with the bold striped knit top) get away with wearing higher contrast than would typically be advised for someone with my colouring. This, and adding a bridge. If I'm going to wear contrast in high blocks (white blouse, navy pants) I willl usually also add a medium toned element up near my face. Even with that knit top, when the weather allows, I will often layer a shirt under or a scarf over that "ties it together" with a more medium hue or sometimes red (a bright that plays its own music.)

Anyway, I steer clear of high contrast large scale bold patterns, much as I like them on others -- because they quickly overwhelm me. Most of this was intuitive and I reverse engineered my reasons.

Lisa, that makes total sense to me! Maybe contrast level is the missing link for you. Maybe you like lower contrast outfits, mostly darker (like Brooklyn) in which case you would enjoy more blended colours like hers. It makes sense with your love of olive.

Helena, I think you're right about "fashion" neutral vs. "personal colour harmony" neutral. We are sort of conflating both kinds, simply because I started the thread and my own "fashion neutrals" happen to be my "personal colour harmony" neutrals -- which does not have to be the case, as Angie proves! (Though note that her fashion neutrals do include some of her personal colour harmony neutrals!)

Star, I mused earlier on the thread that as i acquire more colour, red and burgundy are becoming neutrals for me, too. They work with everything in my closet (with rare exceptions.) But at this point, I still enjoy them as changes from my neutral blue and white palette. They add zing.

Dee, you have figured this out so well for yourself. I think medium contrast is best for me, too, technically (our colouring is different but close I think in contrast value, which might explain our love for medium blues!)

The title of that book Jaime mentioned years ago (I think) is The Triumph of Individual Style. She goes through colour, pattern, scale, movement, all kinds of stuff in there!

I would love to join one of your lectures in person but this thread is fantastic, too. Thanks for sharing what you have learned, it helps.

A master class Suz, and something to chew on for New Year’s Day.

SUCH an interesting conversation!I have spent so many years focusing on color in my closet that I've paid little attention to the concept of neutrals. There is a great discussion on Reddit about what defines a neutral: https://www.reddit.com/r/femal.....a_neutral/ (They get pretty deep in the weeds here.)

For example, the idea that a neutral is what makes a different color pop in the outfit, i.e. camel pants and a fuchsia sweater.

Or, a tone *lacking* color, like beige, tan, gray, black, etc. NOT on the color wheel. This really resonates with me.

Or, the hue that in your closet goes with almost everything you own. This might even be a tomato red or a deep navy (anyone we know?).

And then there is a whole tangential conversation about neutral vs. base colors. The scientific definitions compared to how we actually get dressed!

Partied till 2.30am last night. Need more tea to tackle this exploding thread....

2:30 am????? I went to bed at 9:30 !

LOL!

I would say I’m more driven by mood — shapes, colors and textures — than by cohesion in my wardrobe. So when I get dressed for the day, I choose a particular piece that speaks to me that day, and build around it.

Even applying this magpie-seeming approach, I’m well aware that navy blue is always going to be one of my best colors, as it plays off the color of my eyes and the pink of my skin perfectly. I know my other good colors, too (e.g., most blues and pinks work for me — as long as they aren’t super-saturated and thus overwhelming; oranges, peaches, beiges and yellows are nearly always draining; and giant high contrast patterns generally get a no, even though I will wear stripes.)

What this means for the closet is that I could at this time of year easily pull a random sweater and a random pair of pants out, and it’s pretty likely that I would be able to make them work together, even though they might not convey the exact mood I might otherwise choose.

Lisa, yes -- it sounds like you manage it intuitively and do it very well. Many of your outfits are medium contrast in your preferred colours. Also, you have a fairly large wardrobe, which means you have more freedom in some ways. Still, you have obviously bought well because when most anything in the closet could work with most anything else, that's cohesion!

I don't really conciously think about any of this on any given day when I get dressed, either! It's in the back of my head -- it was how I formed the spine of the wardrobe originally, years ago.

Angie, LisaP -- I will split the difference -- I managed til midnight!

Karen, you might find Carla's posts useful because her hair is changing similarly. It could be that camel does not suit you, though (as it wouldn't suit me, either!) No need to wear it then! Or no need to wear it except for accessories, maybe?

Roberta, so true -- the way we talk about neutrals and colours in fashion is not the way they talk about it in art or science! But it helps to know how artists and scientists think about it, too, I mean if you really want to get into the weeds, as you said. Do you have key neutrals, do you think? Which are your favourites?

Carla, the addition of more cream and off-white would be great for you, I think. I can see how it might be hard to source caramel but in my view, leopard can be a neutral! A fashion neutral, anyway. It sure looks good on you! It works with your dark items and picks up the colour of your hair.

Bonnie, thanks for the smile.

A great thread about color-learned a lot from comments, too and I recommend this read: https://tibi.com/pages/the-goo.....a-language.

If you've read through this thread carefully and absorbed the content, you're awarded a Masters in Neutrals, Contrast and Pattern Nuances

Many thanks to all the astute contributors!!! Shout out to Suz for her iincredible wisdom and observant accuracy

My 2 cents:

• Every wardrobe needs neutrals. How you define neutrals is subjective - so there is that! After you've worked through the definitions, you need to CHOOSE at least two neutrals that work with the colour palettes of your wardrobe. I personally suggest that one should be lighter, and one darker. Makes for a more versatile wardrobe. Feel free to choose more. Here are my definitions. Pass on the neutrals that do not work for you. Helena is dead right!

Thank you, Angie -- those links are gold! And yes, you see, I learned here -- dark and light neutral and go from there. And also--evolve the style! I didn't wear many colour adjacent outfits until recently. But I have always loved the look on others so I am dipping my toe in now. Red is basically a neautral for my style, too, since it goes with everything and I love it. But it peps me up like a colour. So it is both -- the way bright blues are more of a colour for me, even if I can wear them with just about anything else.

Thanks, Suz! You are awfully patient and kind to reply so fully to our thoughts.

Welcome to Team Red Is a Personal Neutral! You wear a blue red with the best of them!! Red, as you mention, has the added advantage of pepping us up with its bright integrity. Therapeutic.

Red is definitely more of a neutral to me than dark brown - which you astutely mentioned too. For example, I recently tried on a pair of brown and cream specs (at home with outfits because I ordered them). Shape was excellent. The colour was jarring! As soon as I put on my red pair of specs, I felt I was wearing a neutral

That makes sense to me, Angie! That is how it would be for me, too.

So for you: Red is a fashion neutral, brown is a sometimes useful and enriching colour. Whereas for many, brown would be their neutral.

For me, red is also a fashion neutral. (If I wore specs, I'd happily wear red ones -- after all, I used to have fuchsia specs, and red would be more versatile for my style. As it is, I have two pair of sunnies -- one with red frames, one with silver.) Meanwhile, black is most definitely a colour in my closet. Mind you, I don't currently own any black apart from boots. If I were to buy something brown, it would also be a colour.

For Carla, leopard can be a fashion neutral. I think red could be a fashion neutral for her, too, but so far she uses it as a colour. (What do you think, Carla, if you read this?)