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Business Casual challenge

kkards

Veteran

When I joined YLF 4 years ago, it was because I wanted/needed to update my look to be more current. YLF as certainly helped me with that. And as part of that, I've also found that what I wear to work has relaxed- and the line between business and casual has move moved more towards causal. I've also found that that line moves a great deal by day. And I've been wondering if this is true for others. In fact I'm wondering what business casual means.....
So I'd like to propose a YLF business casual challenge. For the next few weeks, I'd love for those of us who work in business casual workplaces to post a week's worth (or a least a couple of days) of work wear.
And if you feel comfortable, would you tell us a little about your office/workplace...
1. Do you have a do a written dress code? Is it enforced?
2. What's the informal dress code?
3. What's the makeup of your workplace/ team (average age, mostly women/men etc).
4. And on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being casual and 10 being business, where would you place each day.

Anyone interested in playing along? If you are, let's make it easy to find by labeling our WIWs as WIW Biz Cas

I'll start tomorrow by posting what I wore last week.

38 replies

Latest reply was from bj1111

Staysfit

Veteran

This is a great idea, although I would say I have become more formal rather than casual with what I wear to work. It will be hard to do this with my orthotic boot but I will try my best.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

SUCH A GREAT IDEA, kkards. A few random points:

In the tech world in the US, biz casual means: khakis, polo shirt and loafers. Microsoft created the dress code, I believe. And now, most of the guys in tech wear baggy jeans, tees, hoodies and sneakers - which is even MORE casual. (My Greg is dressier than that - of course!)

In Europe, biz casual is a LOT dressier. It's biz formal but not a matching suit. That's my own definition of the dress code, and I am sticking with it.

Biz casual for my clients means NO JEANS. Although they get away with dressed up black jeans and crisp white jeans sometimes.

Smart Casual is dressed up denim. Biz Casual with jeans.

Some biz casual clients can wear sandals and sandal booties to work. Others are restricted to closed toes.

We've had this argument on YLF many times. Corduroy pants are casual. More casual than unripped darker denim. No one will convince me that corduroy skinnies are biz casual.

Over the ten years that I've had my styling business, I've seen clients relax their dress codes considerably in the same job. The age of casualzation is very real - and quite frightening actually. It's reached the stage where many Millennials and kids think jeans are dressy. We keep on going further down that slippery slope. Where is going to end?

kkards

Veteran

Staysfit- looking foward to seeing what you where, and how the boot is impacting your stlye.

Angie-- yes, a big part of why I've relaxed what I wear is because the age of the people I work with has gotten so the millennials are the majority-- more on that tomorrow when I post last week's work outfits. And part of why this is on my mind is that is become a topic of disussion in my office--apparently it is believed that we maybe having trouble recruiting IT types because of the business casual dress code. There was a rumor over the summer that we where going to have one dress code for IT and other for the rest of the business...

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

FASCINATING. I am excited about these discussions and the challenge, kkards.

Personally, I think if all kids wore a formal school uniform like they do in other parts of the world - and we did for 12 years - there would be far less of a dress code challenge at work today. Youngsters in the US have NEVER needed to dress up, so they are lost when it comes to the work place. It's not their fault. You don't know what you don't know. It's lack of education - if I were to be extreme about it.

Take the SAs at the downtown Nordies flagship in Seattle as an example. VERY GENERALLY (and there are exceptions, of course) - the older SAs are dressed in a dressy manner. They grew up in a dressier era, so it's ingrained and feels "normal". The much younger SAs - of which there are more each year - are a LOT more casual by comparison. I find it unprofessional. The lack of polish is off putting in a store like Nordstrom. It's not American Apparel. That said - it's not their fault. They don't know any better, and Nordies should be training them on what is professional work attire. I blame the retailer.

Runcarla

Veteran

For 25+ years I have worked for the same employer - a government supervised disability insurance. Most folks who work here have social work or nursing backgrounds. When I first started, men wore dress slacks, dress shirts, and ties. Women wore dresses, skirts and tops, and dress pants and tops. The office was an 'open' office with desks separated by low barriers. Men and women who had client contact almost always wore jackets, with women sometimes adopting the matching skirt and jacket type of uniform. Folks wore a lot of colour though and the look of suits was not dark or strict. Field workers were provided with an allowance for the purchase of a briefcase! I went through 2 in my first 10 years - a cognac coloured one, and later a gorgeous maroon leather one.
At the start of summer, usually June, there would be an announcement that men could wear golf style shirts, and that shorts and sundresses were not acceptable. September meant the return of ties for men.

Sometime in the early 2000's the organization changed and downsized and there was decreased field work (it got contracted out.). In-person client contact was virtually eliminated and most of the workforce became cubicle gophers. Also, 'casual Fridays' as a form of charity fundraiser started up. Almost overnight outfits got more casual. Suits and jackets virtually disappeared for men and women. Women started wearing trousers a lot more, and men were no longer required to wear ties, and golf shirts could be worn year 'round. Now you see just about anything.
I don't recall ever hearing that the dress code was enforced, except for a dust-up around men wearing shorts to the office about 10 years ago!

The most common thing you will see today is a chino or similar style trouser, and dress shirt sans tie for men, and dark trousers (often skinnies) and a colourful blouse, and a sweater (for the A/C) for women.

I work in a department that takes up a floor in an office tower. Our team deals with really old cases affected by old government legislation, old policies, and then all the changes made up to now. We still handle paper files (some in boxes!) and on computer. 'Corporate knowledge' is necessary so half the staff have been around for 20 or more years and many (like me) are in their 50's and even 60's. I would say folks dress a little more formally (old habits) and for comfort (old bodies). There are a lot of soft sweaters and cardigans hanging off the back of chairs! Those who live in the corner offices usually have a suit jacket hanging off the back of the door, but even managers are quite casual. Ties on men are rare. 1/3 men, 2/3 women is the office make up.

Though I have been getting more and more casual, I am generally one of the more 'formally' dressed folks. On a scale of 1-10, for what I think is 'dress casual' I would rate myself as a 7. I wear skirts and blouses with a jean style jacket, dark wash jeans and turtleneck sweater with a tweed jacket, or flannel trousers and button down with a silky bomber! The juxtoposition of dressy with casual, is how I try to knock down the 'starchy' factor of dressing a little more formally than most.

lady

I'm eager to see the results of this challenge. Although I'm taking a break from work to be at home with my littles, I was noticing this exact trend and was quite perturbed by it. Casualization indeed. And no one is teaching anyone the proper rules of dress!
Often I hear others comment on how my sons are "dressed up" when wearing a collared shirt and non denim pants I don't get that and find myself choosing more casual options for my oldest now that he's in school so he won't stick out.

I feel myself steamrolling onto a soapbox so I'll stop there.

psychedelicate

(website)

Interesting premise! I generally don't wear anything different from streetwear to work, so I don't know if it will count I do want to start stepping it up for work, if only to have a chance to wear more interesting things. I bought a cute work outfit a few weeks ago, but I haven't worn it yet because I wake up late and rush around and put on jeans and a sweatshirt.

1. Do you have a do a written dress code? Is it enforced?
No
2. What's the informal dress code?
None--I'm guessing nothing scandalous?
3. What's the makeup of your workplace/ team (average age, mostly women/men etc).
All women, ranging from late 20s through 60s with a fairly even distribution.

Runcarla

Veteran

Interesting comment about uniform dressing, Angie. Between boarding school (uniform) and church on Sunday - there was lots of exposure to dressing more formally while We were growing up. My brothers are spiffy dressing engineers. One (a partner) is suits and ties. The other, now a tech guru in Seattle, does dark wash jeans, bespoke dress shirts, a tie, and interesting chunky sweater, with Chelsea boots.

My sons LOVE to dress for the occaision. DS #1 actually wears tweedy jackets as a layer day to day (like they do in thenUK) though he changes into a uniform at work! The boys were in band for years, and always had a pair of dress pants, dress shoes, button down shirts, and ties from an early age. DH taught them to iron their shirts and knot their ties before they were 12!

carter

Great challenge! I don't work in an office anymore, but I'll be watching on my daughter's behalf. With no official dress code, she's struggling to find the right balance between too casual and too formal.

bj1111

Veteran

Just like @rachy's thread on neighborhood dress, biz casual and other dress codes are situational and contextual. @runcarla's brother and other examples are illustrations.

Runcarla

Veteran

Angie, the SA's at the recently opened Nordstrom's in Toronto are dressed and groomed to the nth degree! They all wear black, but it is very stylish. There is a lot of Eilene Fisheres-que drapey knit, and mostly dresses and skirts vs trousers. Grooming is immaculate with classic make-up looks and neat hair. Also, they are wonderfully attentive without being overbearing. All seem to be in their 20's, but it is a brand-spanking-new store.

I took DS #2 there last week and we had lunch. He loved it! But, I did not buy him the $1600 fall jacket (Cavalli) he fancied! (We found one for him at BR!)

Desmo April

(website)

Veteran

For the first time in over 15 years I am in an office that is on the business side of business casual. Really anything went in my old life, full sleeve tattoos, multi colored hair, jeans of all colors and condition. I loved the creative environment and it generally never seemed sloppy.

Now I feel so constrained and it has been a struggle put outfits together. I don't have a ton to chose from and this isn't a permanent position at this point so I don't want to invest too much at one time.

I have a few outfits that I'm happy with, I feel polished and the look is authentic to me but I've worn some things that I'm unhappy in. It's not even that they were bad outfits or unflattering, but they can just feel so wrong for me and completely lacking in edge. To be fair, as the weather cools down this will be much easier.

rachylou

Veteran

Oh I'm very interested in this, altho I haven't worked in an office setting in over a year. I will tell you this tho, about culinary dress, my mother really likes chefs' white jackets. I'm not sure how I feel about them. They can look snappy; but they can also be torture in a hot kitchen. I go for the shirt and apron at work (we have the choice). I definitely hate the free baggy chef pants that the bakery gave us. They're uncomfortable first of all, and then second they are stupendously ugly and sloppy looking to my eye. They also, IMO, climb to the status of aesthetically grotesque when people wear them with a certain type of low, wide chef's clog. I'm thankful we don't actually have to wear them.

Staysfit

Veteran

1. If there is a dress code in any of the locations I work, I have never seen it, and when I interviewed, I specifically told everyone, I would be wearing jeans. The settings I have worked in are multidisciplinary, and include various professionals, for example, teachers, social workers, nurses, psychologists, speech and language therapists, Occupational Therapists, Information Tech. Staff, Maintenance Staff, Teaching Assistants, Administrators, Administrative Assistants, Behavior Support Staff, etc. Everyone dresses for their role.

Choosing what to wear in this type of setting was initially more tricky than in my private office, where my role was obvious and the population served more uniform. I had to figure out how to dress in a way that allowed me to stand out as having a unique role, still look somewhat physician like, but also friendly enough for he type of environment and families I work with. All that and still feel true to myself. The WIW pics I post are the result of my efforts.

2. The informal dress code? I see everything except bare feet. People wear shorts and tank tops to work. They also wear skimpy sun dresses and sandals in the summer. Staff have to go outside with the students in whatever weather, and when it's hot, they dress in what they think will keep them cool.

3. The makeup question is so interesting. We work with autistic children so perfume is discouraged. I see very few people wearing makeup, however there are some that do. One woman goes all out, and loves color. She goes big with everything, make-up, hair, flamboyant, dramatic everything. Some of the younger women wear makeup. I wear make-up but keep it fairly subtle.

4. I think most of my dress is smart casual, although I am doing my best to wear more dresses and jackets. That might bring me into business casual territory. In any case, I'm moving away from wearing jeans so often. I really prefer myself in skirts and dresses. I don't become more casual on a Friday.

kkards

Veteran

@bj111---yes, I agree. Which is why I'm so interested in seeing visuals...

@ Desmo April-- about 10 years ago my sister went from a business casual office to a full out business environment -- i remember shopping with her to find work appropriate clothes, and the limited choices, especially for summer. I'd love to see what you have come up with, would you post a WIW.

@Staysfit-- I'm surprised at the fact that you don't have a written dress code. I assumed that most schools had one both for faculty and for students.

@Runcarla--hope you'll post some WIW. Re older workers dressing more formally or for comfort. In my office, unfortunately, there are not many older workers... I am among the oldest, especially among the non support staff, and they tend towards the dressing for comfort. And like you I try to mix more traditional business like clothing with more casual to find a less "starchy" look

@/psychedelicate- no informal dress code? I've found every where I work, each team has its own unwritten (and probably unspoken) dress code.

Anonymous

I agree with Angie's definitions. In my wardrobe, I wear biz casual for work, though I get away with white or very dark blue jeans from time to time (I wear ponte trousers most days); and smart casual for weekends. Social attire depends on the event or occasion. Yes, corduroy is casual. I only have one pair of corduroy pants, and I rarely wear them.

Interesting about uniforms, though. My oldest DD had to wear school uniforms, but has always preferred casual dress. My middle 2 DDs, one 25 and one 23, used to think they were dressy in jeans; but they dress differently now that they're out of college and have started their careers. My youngest DD, now 18, dislikes jeans and is shifting into more classic styles. The 3 younger ones never had to wear school uniforms, and the high school they all went to is quite casual, yet all of them criticized the way the girls at their school dressed. I'd like to think I was a role model of sorts to them, even if on a subconscious level. They all dress well.

RobinF

Veteran

Great discussion. It has definitely gotten more casual for me over the 30 years I have been in accounting. Part of that is that I was in a CPA firm and a bank but now am in a manufacturing office but I do think it has gotten more casual in general. I personally like it. I am not a fan of two-piece suits and hate panty hose so the switch to pants and sweaters is much more comfortable for me. I save my jeans for Fridays. I'll be following this with interest.

Anonymous

I'm glad I don't have to wear suits and pantyhose, too, but I don't mind blazers. It's the matched suit with tucked in shirt that I miss every chance I get. For one thing, my body shape is such that I look better in untucked tops.

AviaMariah

Veteran

I'll play. My office went from business casual to casual almost a year ago. I love it because it really simplifies my life as I don't feel like I have two closets. I'll try to remember to post a WIW on Monday and then I'll answer all your above questions.

El Cee

Veteran

Terrific challenge idea... really makes me wish I still worked in a traditional office setting. (I so miss dressing up.) Although I cannot take part in your challenge (very casual lifestyle at present), I really look forward to following your postings.

Barbara Diane

Veteran

I'm curious if this varies by location?
I'd guess that the PNW would be more casual than Washington DC.

Barbara Diane

Veteran

I hadn't heard the term smart casual before. Thanks Angie.

FWIW many many many years ago I wore a pencil skirt and silk blouse or a dress for an entry level or one above level position with no face to face encounters with customers.

My DS1 wears trousers and a dress shirt. My DS2 wears the same unless he has a more formal meeting or event. Formal can Include a suit. He may wear nice jeans with a dress shirt on Fridays. I'm not sure.

unfrumped

Veteran

Very interesting discussion!
I love getting ideas from YLF but found it harder than I expected to find office wear " style icons" though there have been some great ones for sure. Especially a consistent look. So many outfits are more casual in one way or another or maybe too "fun" though that sounds terrible-- not intending it that way.
I even think the huge cropped trend works against my work style needs . Yes, there can be a polished, tailored business cropped pant look, but there is something about the crop that evokes , well, capris or resort and not serious pants! And is more challenging for proportions for many women, and can look too playful or even gangly, especially if not wearing a business-y jacket with it
And while I also need to do some untucked outfits, I don't find most plain untucked shirttail hems acceptable. The hems need to be cut more specially to work untucked. And then I think it's weird to have too much back shirttail hanging out from under a jacket!
Am I picky or what!
I think there must be gradations of business casual but don't know how to describe them. Not right or wrong, but a spectrum of formality depending on one's line of work.

kkards

Veteran

@BC---even before the places I worked switch to business casual, I had largely ditched the panthose....I probably spent $400 a year on them. I don't think I ever went a week with running at least one pair.
@Barbara - yes, as Angie notes, location can also influence what is considered acceptable. And re pencil skirts-- we always joke that you can tell when a new group of recent college grads has started (we bring them in as training claasses 3 times a year), because almost all the women wear pencil skirts the 1st day....it's like some secret memo has been circulated...

kkards

Veteran

@unfrumped-- yes, I have struggled with this....but I guess I've landed on the, it's ok to be more casual side, because it's closer to the way the rest of my colleagues are dressing. And for me, and the business I work in, it's important to show that I am open to new ideas etc and not stuck in my past

UmmLila (Lisa)

Veteran

I am interested in the continuum of business casual, and pants in particular. I am surprised that knit ponte pants are considered business wear, since they seem more or less like heavy-weight, not very tight leggings. I can see corduroy as not office-ready, but what about velvet trousers that come in lots of dressy variations and are similar in feel? Wovens largely seem ready for business, unless they are denim, but I guess some denim really is business casual.

Ginger

Veteran

This is going to be fascinating. I will definitely be participating!

I see a LOT of variety at my workplace. It's a very large manufacturing facility and headquarters, so it runs the full gamut from assembly line work clothes to executive wear. Officially the facility went from business to business casual something like 15 years ago (for office workers); there's a large component who've worn business most of their professional lives, and have not casualized to a significant degree. But some have! In practice, I see some ties on a few older men and suits on a few women (usually managers in both cases). Suits for customer meetings or important presentations, which not everyone participates in. I also see jeans on a daily basis. High heels are not typical (though not rare) - the facility is very large. I believe that dress code enforcement is left up to the managers' discretion.

Interestingly, the young finance workers tend to be dressed pretty well on the business casual side. The most casual office workers are some estimators who have been with the company for decades.

Casual Fridays (and unofficial casual Thursdays before 9/80 off Fridays) are very much a thing. Sports team/school team wear is encouraged, or "wear red" to support our troops.

Personally... my style tilts so far retro that there isn't much of a "business casual" analogue. Business formal is a suit; everything else is a dress or a skirt. Dresses and skirts tend to present more formal than casual, unless it's a maxi or has only straps.

psychedelicate

(website)

@kkards Nope. I mean, there's some realm where common sense comes into play (like, don't wear your bikini), but it has never come up. I work in the offices of a museum where if we have to do something official, there's even a special communal skirt suit that person can borrow to change into!

Cococat

Veteran

I would love to participate in this.

My work place (university) doesn't have a dress code apart from the safety dress code for laboratories. Most days I would dress in what I consider a business casual style. If I'm teaching, my main consideration is shoe comfort, as my lectures go for 2 hours and I stand the whole time. I almost always wear heels.

In warmer weather, I tend to wear dresses and and it's usually jeans or pants for winter. We're mid Spring at the moment.

Angie, interesting hearing your thoughts about uniforms. I attended a school with a strictly enforced uniform policy. We wore black hose Summer and Winter, a hat, a blazer which had to be the outermost layer in Winter (sweaters had to be worn under), gloves in Winter etc. I hated it because I felt that I had no creative freedom as clothing always feels like a creative expression for me..but I will acknowledge that it taught me about conservative professional attire.

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