Agree with Steph. Lived it. My high school years were made miserable by offensive and inappropriate sexual attention because of my figure and height. I had the body of a woman in a man's wet dream while still emotionally and mentally a girl. The grown men were the scariest. My twenties out in the workforce, same shit. Please, this is not bragging, it scars you in ways that take decades to understand.

When you look this way, it can also make other females uncomfortable to be around you when there are also males present. You can feel it in the air, and it is real.

@MaryK: I think we might've cross-posted. Team Get On With It for myself, Team Be Outraged on everyone else's behalf.

@Claudia: Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. I had some of that from 13 to 15, and it was really awful. I remember sort of liking the attention on the one hand, because I was 13, but I also knew that there was something about it that I didn't understand and that had some teeth to it.

Coming back to clarify for a few people, I do actually think "morality" is the right word for it - I mean a specifically moral type of judgment.

People feel like they've got the right to judge some folks and not others on the basis of their bodies. That's messed up.

To me morality is about right and wrong ethically. To judge someone's morality based on their body is I suppose possible but it seems to me the more appropriate term for this discussion is "judge." I do not assume someone is morally good or evil because of their body type, but because of their behavior, and even there body language and context is more important than the body shape that is making it.

So I suppose idiot men might assume big tits mean the girl has "loose morals" but that is a very limited definition of the term morals, which comes pre-laden with ideas about sexual behavior - namely, that "nice" girls don't, because sex is somehow bad. There are many things I reject about this idea, but the biggest one for this discussion is that sex is by definition immoral, so anyone found sexy is therefore immoral. That is my pushback on the term morality here. It's based on a (to me) erroneous definition of the term.

And may I say again that sometimes men's sense of sexual entitlement really sucks.

Hi, just checking in after high/low week and wanted to thank people for thoughtful comments.

Rachylou: "Things turn into moral judgement when people insist (erroneously) the object of their feelings causes their feelings..."

oh boy. i did not cause you to become consumed by lust merely by wearing appropriate clothing in 97F heat. ergo (to be blunt) i owe you nothing, and even less than nothing after you decide to start throwing a fit about it.

MaryK, you put this very well: "...we need to be careful that Team Get On With It doesn't morph into Team Suck It Up Because It's Your Own Fault Anyway." And i'm all for 'tips and tricks that helped me to Get On With It' and moral support!

Claudia, thank you and thank you for sharing. "People aren't thinking about you the way you think they are!" is true much of the time; but if it was true all of the time we wouldn't have been stalked by grown men when we were little girls or teens. Scary is a right word, bone-chilling a bit better.

Hi Dana! yeah, it takes thought and finesse to get the words right. For me, Rachylou hit the right note with the phrase 'moral judgement'. I have found that many people do make moral judgements about others based on the others' body. It's not rampant but not uncommon in my experience. And it is wrong and thoughtless and many times a justification for the 'judge-ers' own bad behaviour. And it does have just about zippity doo dah to do with actual morality or ethics.

"There are many things I reject about this idea, but the biggest one for
this discussion is that sex is by definition immoral, so anyone found
sexy is therefore immoral. That is my pushback on the term morality
here. It's based on a (to me) erroneous definition of the term." I agree. At the same time i think this does reflect many people's (okay, big judgement follows so prepare yourself) idiot so-called 'ideas'. Which only have a chance of change when people push back so props to you!

re: entitlement. Word.

And big thanks to you adorkable for having the courage to start a thread on a fraught but important topic, and for providing thoughtful responses. Have a great weekend everybody!! steph

p.s. i added a latte for y'alls Saturday morning brunch

Great discussion that brings out some uncomfortable emotions as I look back. I had friends who fell into the "large breasts=slut" category, and unfortunately one of them decided she must be a slut and acted out on that. Later she dealt with the whole issue by gaining a huge amount of weight and that had a negative effect on her health.

Unfortunately, the religious culture that I grew up in still preaches that girls and women are responsible for men's thoughts and desires, and it is our job not to arouse sexual thoughts in any man, anywhere. Such a stance continues to make looks and dress a "moral issue" for both men and women, and leads to body shame and weird sexual repressions.

I was a young adult in the late 60s and 70s through the so-called sexual revolution and the women's movement. It is sad that these same issues are still with us. While biology does play a part, I also think that culture and socializing of both men and women plays a big part in why so many are still judging and feeling judged by the same stereotypes.

Thanks to mrseccentric, rabbit, and MsMaven for picking up my slack. It's been a rough week, so I won't say much, but I've loved reading your (and everyone's) comments and replies!

Ironkurtin: somehow I missed your response for a week and some. I completely agree with you on a personal level - sexuality isn't immoral - but I keep using the word "morality" precisely because the folks making the judgment see it that way. I think rabbit explained my point of view better than I can, actually.

Thanks to everyone for your honesty and your thoughts.

I think people really do make moral judgements about body types and sizes. Overweight is one of the last categories where it appears there are no rules and no protections; people seem to feel free to judge a person as lazy or lacking character/strength, or even as a lower socio-economic class. These sorts of judgements are, of course, inaccurate and harmful, yet it seems to be the last category where few others will "call someone out" about it.

Overweight aside, a woman's body is most often judged for how much of it can be seen. So if society can SEE you have large breasts, and you aren't wearing at tent to try to disguise them, then you must like the attention. If a woman wears a short skirt or cleavage baring tops, then she must want sexual attention. Honestly, despite me knowing how wrong those judgements are, I still sometimes catch myself making them. Most women teach their daughters not to walk alone at night and especially not to wear club attire out alone at night. Although that is probably wise, we are still giving in to the idea that it is a woman's own fault if she is assaulted. Women who appear to have promiscuous behaviour routinely get less sympathy in an assault. Why? Because people assume that if she wanted it from 100 other men, how could she NOT have wanted it from one more. Absurd, discriminatory and criminal, but it happens all the time.

So on the one hand and in general, I do agree that we often think too much about ourselves and we ought to be Team Get On With It. But on the other, there are very real moral, political and criminal issues associated with the judgements when they do occur. To blithely tell people to get over themselves is to deny the injustice done to so many because of their gender or body type. I am lucky in that my body isn't that outside the "norm" as to cause much ruckus, but that doesn't mean that I can deny the very real experiences of other people (women especially), both in this country and around the world.

Echo, your post really resonates. See my recent post about the undie-baring skirt length. It did not cross my mind to judge this girl as promiscuous or attention-seeking, but I did wonder if she was clueless or wearing it intentionally. And in another context (different neighborhood, street corner, evening), I might have thought she was a working girl. Context matters, and we are all programmed to interpret it, right?

And it isn't just applied to women's bodies and clothing - assumptions about race, ethnicity, weight, age, hair, tattoos, piercings, even glasses (smart? "sexy librarian"?) are made all the time.

We need to add this topic to the YLF cruise agenda!

AG, you are so right - people make these judgements all the time. I know we've all been judged one way or another, and it's been wrong.

That's why I am LOUD when people attempt to put me in some sex corner. Grope me? Try to hit on me? Assume I can't do something because I have ovaries? I YELL, and YOU WILL RUN.

I've also been called all sorts of variations on Bitch. Fine by me. I know who I won't be dating. Or promoting. Or hiring again.

I guess I'm on team Men Are Sometimes Stupid So We Need To Show Them The Error of Their Ways By Living Strong.

: )

It is like the 'Push-me, Pull-you' from Dr. Doolittle. And, doesn't this topic come up fairly regularly' too?

Do I wear my bikini (at 50+ with my soft and low bust line, tummy, and stretch marks) because it is comfortable, and no one 'really' sees me because they are all worried about their own less-then-perfect bodies?

Do I wear a pencil, and snug topper with specs and pointy toes for a 'sexy intellectual' vibe?

Do I wear jeans, sneakers, stripped T, and trench to run errands on the weekend.

Do I ramp up the colourful gear and wear the 'status' race t-shirts from the year before at sporting events?

Yes x 4 and more. Sometimes I don't care (and get on with it) and sometimes I do care, and fuss a little (and post a WIW and seek opinions/validation.). You can't be ignorant of the message that your image (sex, shape, colour, etc) sends out to the world, but you shouldn't let it steal your happiness. You can manipulate that image (and isn't that part of the fun of fashion?). Probably most people won 't even notice, but some will. You may care what they think ('you look nice tonight, honey!') or you might not.

So, although I would agree with those who say 'get on with it', I would also say that it is worthwhile to participate in the discussion, and learn from others. Maybe those with a confident attitude will share some of that confidence with less secure sisters, and maybe those with with less happy image experiences will facilitate understanding and tolerance with the sharing of their stories.