Definitely, lack of caring is very frumpy... makes me feel kinda bad for some of my colleagues who are in that slump... I always invite them shopping in the nicest possible way I can.

I think the "I give up" look is a hallmark of frump. Well said!

I'd rather see someone who seems to be trying, even if it's a little too hard or missing the mark, than someone who seems to not care at all.

Such great comments here and I really resonate with many of them.Thanks, Una!

Mo, I'm glad you're paying attention to the drape of garments. That makes me happy

Polly, thank you.

Maya, I really like that word: “commentariat”

Deb, shorter women can look killer in hip bone jackets to my eye! And believe it or not, in many instances a pencil skirt can look *more* hip with the right low heels and flats

Desmo, I loved what you said here: "Retro needs intent, dated just happens”. Brilliant.

Una, I’m on Team Fluevog for sure, even though I don’t own any. I 100% believe that Fluevog makes funky fab shoes! But many of the styles are not formal-corporate. Instead, they are playful and erring on the side of casual. Does that make sense? They can absolutely pass for business casual if the elements of the outfit are right though.

Frump is not just one specific thing – but a sum of its parts. The same dress can look frumpy on one person and totally hip on someone else. We are back to the same thing – HOW are you wearing it and WHO is wearing it. I look frumpy in a wrap dress since I *cannot* fill it out. But put forum member Kari in the same wrap dress and she looks like a glowing goddess. Put me in an angular button down shirt with srunched up sleeves and skinnies and I pull off the look. On others, this would look frumpy.

If I had to boil it down to a few things that increase the frump factor, this is how I see it:

o The length and fit of your clothing – tops and bottoms.
o You hair style
o Your watch and eyewear

Okay. I think you’ve all heard enough from me on the subject.

Love "commentariat" too! And Desmo's quote. I agree with Maya that a lot of the comments on the site were very subjective opinions and not that helpful - but thinking about it all did help me in some ways.

Mo wearing my wrap dress is a perfect example: frumpy on me, fab on her - and yet it technically "fits" both of us.

I appreciate your comment regarding quality, Angie. Blog photos are good for seeing proportions, colors, patterns but you're right, quality is hard to judge in a picture.

As a thrifter, I see the gamut of quality and only purchase the better stuff, because I can get the bargain quality at the same price on sale at Target. (I think my Goodwill is getting expensive, even to the point that it may not be worth it, especially if I shop good sales at Macy's.) Thrifting only pays when I can purchase Ann Taylor/Loft, Banana Republic, various Macy's labels ... those brands are easily found at Goodwill.

I really don't shop much ... its been over a year since I went into Macy's. I do pop into Goodwill once a week. Last week, I found some darling red Me Too ballet flats for $8 (brand new).

I'm curious, and maybe should paste this into its own thread. But this leads me to another question. What kind of prices could I find on the sale rack at Macy's for a knitwear piece made with cotton/modal like a detailed summer top? At Goodwill, I can find these (good labels) for around $8. What about a top made of merino wool? Goodwill, $10.

What great comments and explanations. I can't define frump, but I know it when I see it.

If I continue on the career path I'm on now I will end up in the world of formal business attire ((terrifying)) with regards to the pencil skirt and flats issue I think it really does depend on the skirt, a beautifully tapered pencil skirt hitting below the knee looks amazing with flats and bare legs but in a formal business office the skirt is likely to be more loose fitting and hose are required so in my opinion heels help to beet the frump factor but are not requisite. (It's also important to note that in this instance the skirt is frumpy and requires extra styling to lift the look and not the flats.)
Examples of office appropriate skirts, would you wear these with hose and chunky flats?
http://www.austinreed.co.uk/fc.....ens-skirts

On quality: there's a fashion programme in the UK which features at one point a head to head competition between a stylist styling designer clothes costing thousands of pounds and another (Gok Wan) styling high street versions costing in the low hundreds. It is judged by an audience of every day people (often it's held in a shopping mall or similar) and Gok Wan's collection mostly wins. He has an infectious enthusiasm for fashion and an eye for detail and I find it fun to watch him pull this off.

The bit they don't talk about, though, is that these creations of his are cobbled together purely for that moment. I can't imagine you could wear them more than once without needing drastic first aid measures. And forget about when they have to be cleaned... The designer versions, by comparison, may look less glitzy, but it is clear that they are much better quality and will last much longer.

I also remember Joan Collins being shown 3 or 4 similar blouses(?) and being asked to spot the designer label one. She couldn't - and was charming and gracious about it - but I bet she'd have had no problem if trying them on or more, having them for some time.

Quality is not just in how good something looks but how good it looks, time after time after time. I do know, though, that a designer label is no guarantee of quality or longevity. I suppose I'm using it as shorthand for 'well designed, good quality materials and long lasting'.

Oooo, many of the comments attached to the Corporette post were nasty, especially re: middle-aged women. I am soon-to-be 43. I guess we had all better disappear, with our distasteful mary janes and frizzy hair!

I have this pair of Clarks in two colors:
http://www.6pm.com/clarks-passion-black-leather
I love them. For me they are 10-hour shoes, despite the heel (about 2.5", I think) and I wear them often with more casual pencil skirts and flared skirts/dresses. According to this post, I am completely frumpy, since low heels, chunky heels, and mary janes are all verboten!

Oh, sigh. Now I have to think about that every time I put on those shoes. I am self-employed but sometimes meet with clients, with dress somewhere on the more polished/creative end of business casual. I'll be spending the day in a client's office tomorrow, in those shoes--feeling a little less smashing than usual.

Angie - I agree with the hipbone length jacket, totally! What I referred to are those that cut right across the widest part of a woman's bottom. Not hipbone - which can be very cute and flattering, but sliced right across the equator. :o)

Maya - my longer suit jackets are not 1:1 ratio, since the skirt that shows below the jacket is shorter than the length of the jacket ... if that makes any sense to you?

When all is said and done, I do agree with the comment above that "frump is in the eye of the beholder." Very hard to define, and we all bring our own perspective to it. But interesting input!

Velma, you may make a liar of me - I love those shoes you posted; they have a Victorian/goth vibe which is fun. To my eye they do look less frumpy than a typical mary jane, with the heel and the two straps. I still don't think they work for business formal, but for funky/creative business I can see them working. In any case, I'm sure you make them look killer.

Some of those comments on Corporette were tending toward ageist - it is a bit frustrating that as we age we have to worry not just about what our bodies are doing, but whether we're up-to-date with trends and such so not to look frumpy. Men certainly are required to do less diligence as far as that's concerned.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, rhubarbgirl. I was in an Eeyore kind of mood when I wrote that previous comment. I wore the shoes to my meeting and felt fine. I think they have a slight 1940s retro vibe--although I am more or less a goth who aged out, so that may be going on, too!

At the core looking frumpy comes down to a lack intention.

Take a very basic simple outfit--say a white top and jeans. There is the potential there for both great frump and killer style. It all comes down to the details. I feel that it is the same idea with dated/retro. Retro needs intent, dated just happens.

This really resonates for me. One of the first things that I did when I started to try to dress better was absolutely abjure t-shirts and jeans, in which I felt sloppy, shapeless and as if I weren't trying.

Now I'm starting (gradually!) to get back into t-shirts and jeans, but now the t-shirts are fitted, with jewel or scoop necks, the jeans fit and are long enough, and I'm wearing a belt and/or jewelry and/or a scarf and/or a jacket, and it feels like an entirely different look.

My mother is the queen of frump, everything is from Land's End, pants are way short and she's proud of her frump! I think to her, frump = woman of substance.

Denise's mom is one of the most wonderful people in the entire world. It doesn't matter what she wears :-).

I'm late in the game, but still confused to what is the definition of FRUMP? I know it's the eye of the beholder, just as beauty is. However, according to dictionary.com:

Frump
–noun
1. a person who is dowdy, drab, and unattractive.
2. a dull, old-fashioned person.

I personally ( and I believe many of you), are focusing on the definition of #1. to me, not in a latest trend/style doesn't equal frump, corporate setting or not. I also believe a picture is worth 1000 words. I could show you two pictures of basic items, white buttonfront blouse, black pencil skirt, black chunky shoes, one frumpy, and one not.