Strongly agree that the lack of higher sizes is wrong and also confusing from a business perspective. I think we will soon reach the tipping point though and some brave/savvy designers or fast fashion outlets or something will catch on. Early kudos to ASOS Curve though.

I am all for size inclusion and I am also in the camp of crops, pastels and loud mixed prints. Sorry, Tim.

I agree wit the article as a size 18 plus or 2x it is difficult /challenging to find lovely looks. Like Angie says leave no fashion stone unturned. Some stores I will not go in because they are Dream killers.

I already know the do not cater to me.

A store I've been pleasently supprised by b is forever 21 plus. The trendy cut shape and affordable price is on point.

I live vibrantly with thrifted and custom made pieces.

Better to spend my money wisely than wasted.

There are unique lines like MonifC. Here work is amazing.

Is he talking about the Designers like Tom Ford, Gucci companies like that? I guess they can make the sizes they want.

In reality for most of us, is what is shown on the runway, anything that we would either wear/lifestyle or be able to afford?

At mass market Lauren, Karen Kane, Michael Kors, etc make large sizes and at some department store the larger sizes section is taking over more and more space.

Petite clothing is harder to find

Great comments from everybody. I especially resonate with what Gradfashionista and Jules have to say.

It's hard to find a pair of designer jeans over a size 31 when you are shopping in store, nothing fits, and they offer to order you something online. No thanks...I want to same right to try on and throw in a pile as everyone else! Its high pressure to get in a special order when you know that trying on jeans usually results in a 20 tries to 1 buy ratio. Too much hassle for the same heartbreak.

I also feel like more fast fashion manufacturers are doing a POOR job at fit these days. Ann Taylor is my go-to for work items, and this year, they've had a TON of blousy, unfitted tops. They all look terrible. They've stopped even trying to shape and add darts in front, and unless you're small and can afford to look voluminous and free -- the shirts are now poor picks for me. In store, which used to carry a few different fits of almost all pants, now exclusively carry Devin fit -- narrow in the hip and thigh. NO ONE is buying these locally at my stores, and the associates complain that's all corporate will send them. When the 60% sales come on, it's FILLED with nothing but these narrow pants, because no one buys them, even as a last ditch sale grab. They hardly have any of the basic Ann or Kate fits, unless someone ordered one from online and it's a return. It's like they aren't even trying anymore. They're not listening to their consumers. It's my go-to for pants, and now they are pushing me away and I have nowhere else to take my generously sized legs LOL!

Here's another article that reference's Tim Gunn's piece.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/0.....index.html

I have a number of friends who've gone to fashion school (FIDM, FIT, etc) within the last 10-15. Virtually none of them were given any experience in designing/pattern making for plus sizes, although
you can't just grade up for plus sizes; it's a new block/shape

. It was scarcely even mentioned in their classes! Teachers acted like plus sizes didn't exist. Fashion designers don't know *how* to design for plus sizes, and they don't know because they weren't trained on it. This is part of why current plus size garments can be so unflattering and ill-fitting. Getting these professional dress forms into schools is critical. It's pretty exciting that this is a student-led effort. This generation WANTS to design plus sizes.

Reading back through the comments, as well as Tim Gunn's article, I'm struck that the companies who are doing it better are online only. Like ModCloth and ASOS Curve. Angie has said repeatedly that retail floor space is at a premium. Online companies don't have that limitation. They see the market and are going for it. And I know eShakti is kind of ignored as a garment maker, but the vast majority of happy customers who share photos are plus-sized.

Fantastic article. Thanks for the link, Lisa. Viva's right -- your links are always so great.

And reading it, I could not help but think of some of the incredibly fashionable plus-size women on our forum (who are incredibly diverse). They do not fear cropped pants or mixed prints and they do not care for fashion "rules" and despite fewer options they manage to look incredible, but they are able to do this only through dint of constant effort, learning, reflection, thought. People with less interest or time will fall flat on this and it drives me crazy that designers don't care about this eager, willing, and beautiful, sexy, glamorous market.

I think Aziriphale is right -- it's a class issue. At least in part.

I loved this article. I've been thinking about it a lot. My sister is plus sized, so I see the difference between the selection available to me and the selection available to her and it really kills me. But I do think things are changing. Ledonna's comment reminded where I'm seeing more and more progress: brands that are intended for younger customers. Forever 21 and ModCloth are great examples. I'm actually surprised that no one has started a CAbi-style, trunkshow format project for women who want to wear stylish, well made clothes that aren't frumpy.

Christian Siriano's NYFW show: http://nyti.ms/2clz2iI

I'm not a plus-sized woman, but I believe women of every size and shape should be able to find stylish clothes to wear, and wear whatever she wants.

One statement in this thread has puzzled me, that retail floor space is at a premium. In my area, floor space abounds. There are department and clothing retailers who are declining and almost empty. There is empty space on the racks which are farther apart than they used to be themselves.

I have never done research, but I do think it depends on where you live and are able to shop as to what kind of things you can find. When I was 3 sizes larger, I couldn't find pants. Now, I can't find pants. Some weirdness prevails that causes any style of pants I look at to be stocked in every size but mine. And if "my size" is there, it's wrong and I'd rather size up or down, and can't. I take it as some sort of ironic curse, and since it saves me money in the long run, I've learned to live with it.

In a couple larger cities within an hour's drive, the same stores carry a bit larger assortment of sizes. Maybe that is the solution for me.

But yes, since I've shopped for plus sizes with my mother-in-law, I must agree that fit is hard to come by, even when you can get the correct "size" in an attractive style. She isn't shopping for a career wardrobe, but has to alter or shorten everything, so I can imagine if you are short and a plus size, the challenge is even greater.

I agree also with the current trend to shapelessness - I would think that has to do with "fast fashion" even in the designer fashion realm- less cost involved in design, pattern drafting, manufacturing, retailing. Any woman of any size or shape who doesn't want to wear a toga or choir robe for daily wear may be out of luck.

As a plus size woman who is also petite I can attest to how difficult it is to shop at any store. The plus sized sections of any department store are always removed from the "regular" sections. They are on a completely different floor and usually situated near the furniture sections. And we don't get subcategories of sections either, while thinner women can enjoy high end sections, juniors, sportswear, evening wear, etc. The plus-sized section is just one section and everything is in there clumped together. We get a rack of Michael Kors, a rack of sportswear, a rack of jeans etc. I cannot tell you how demeaning it is.

Also, why are clothing manufacturers under the assumption that being plus sized also means you are 6ft tall? Because I have to tailor and remove at least 1-2 inches of fabric from tank straps every time I need new tanktops. Frustrating!

OK so the issue here is not just about plus sized women. The fashion industry preys on women's insecurities. If you loved yourself exactly how you are you would not need to buy a $125 face cream to make you look younger. You would not need a $300 haircut, you would not need a Manolo, and you would not need Birkin bag. So I understand that fashion does not cater to women, it makes women cater to the industry and they just fool you by making you believe they are trying to make you more beautiful.

While I appreciate Tim Gunn's voice in this issue I still feel that he is part of the problem that most women face, not just plus sized women. I'm all for women looking their best but these fashion people they have rules up the wazoo about what to wear and what not wear. Now I can't wear florals and pastels? I'm not allowed to mix prints? You can pry my cropped pants off my cold dead body as far as I'm concerned. Do I want to look good? YES! But that doesn't mean I have to play by everyone else's rule book. For anyone who is interested in plus sized fashion, there are a great deal of bloggers out there, in the trenches, wearing clothing that Tim Gunn would disapprove of, baring their midriffs, rocking their shorts, and feeling fabulous the whole way. It's important that we all women regardless of our size put an end to the glamorizing of skinny women in our society. I subscribe to plus-sized fashio bloggers and instagramers and rejecting fashion that is not plus sized inclusive. I don't need to look at any more skinny models when I shop. I'll make a post outlining some of my favorite plus-sized online sites but in reality I would like to see the whole range of sizes on one rack in the stores and see designers stop marginalizing us in every way.

Hi Blonde Ambition, this paragraph is a good point:

"
Also, why are clothing manufacturers under the assumption that being
plus sized also means you are 6ft tall? Because I have to tailor and
remove at least 1-2 inches of fabric from tank straps every time I need
new tanktops. Frustrating!

"

That is EXACTLY the problem with fashion designers not being trained in how to technically make good patterns for plus size women. They don't make those assumptions deliberately, but they vast majority don't understand the technical issues. Computerized grading can really go off the rails unless it's specifically done. That's how you end up with armholes you can put your head through and shoulders that could fit a quarterback's pads underneath.

One of the biggest reason for that lack of understanding is training in fashion school and the almost total lack of plus size consideration there. It is not a simple issue, and you've put your finger on one of them. It would seriously take going back to school for many of these designers to really learn how to design and make patterns for plus sizes.

It occurs to me that this is not just a plus size problem, although I know ladies who need to shop for plus sizes are even more limited than others.

I would argue that many/most designers (especially high-end, although I'm also looking at you, JCrew) are not even good at designing garments in "straight sizes" that accommodate an average woman's curves. I'm a common size, neither petite nor plus, and it's a downright struggle to find pants and dresses that are cut to accommodate breasts and hips/thighs. Designers, start working with women, not 13 year old girls as models!

Agree with Janet, but I think any figure problems are multiplied by adding the "plus size" factor into the mix. All the plus models I see tend to be tall, gorgeous hourglass figures. If I have a hard time at my size (the two biggest issues being height and shoulders), then I can't imagine what it's like further along the bell curve.

Thanks for the article, UmmLila. LOVE it. I refuse to watch Project Runway, but have time for Tim Gunn and Christian Siriano.

As someone who has worked as a fashion buyer for ladies wear for years (I was a specialist buyer, and I've bought for plus size departments), AND I dress women of all sizes and body types for a living - here is some additional info:

• The average size of the American women is a US12/14 - but the most bought sizes in US retail are sizes 6 to 10. Bigger sizes don't shop as frequently as smaller sizes for all sorts of reasons. That's why retailers award store space to smaller sizes.
• There are MANY retailers including a US size 14 and 16 in their regular ranges. And will offer it in tall and petite. There is a LOT of great plus size clothing available online. And online shopping is becoming the way of the world. It's much better than it used to be. I must give credit where it is due.
• I have dressed many, many plus size women in my time, so I'm speaking from my experiences. Plus size clothing becomes a lot more complicated to manufacture because the body type of a plus sized figure varies considerably, (Una mentioned that too). That's why the industry caters to a perfectly proportioned and regular height to taller plus sized lady. If you are that - you will find it quite easy to shop in a plus sized department. I have built capsules for women who wear a US18 and 20 very easily because they were 5ft 7ish with balanced proportions. Most things fit perfectly straight off the rack, and look sensational. But as soon as you digress from the "ideal plus size body type" - things get a LOT harder. The hardest body type to fit clothes onto is a petite plus sized apple. Everything is too long (everywhere!), and in order to fit the waist, you have to go up several sizes, which means that the wearer drowns in the rest of the garment. It seems that few designers are up for the challenge of dressing all variations of plus sizes - which is why they stick to what is easier - yet, THEY NEED TO GET ON WITH IT NOW. There is a niche in the market that few are touching. Thank you Navabi. com for doing a stellar job. I hope you inspire other retailers to follow suit.

YES. The fashion industry needs to do a better job of clothing ALL sizes and body types stylishly, and with ample variety. There is NO ONE who wants to see this more than me.

Angie brings up an interesting point:

• The average size of the American women is a US12/14 - but the most bought sizes in US retail are sizes 6 to 10. Bigger sizes don't shop [as] frequently as smaller sizes for all sorts of reasons. That's why retailers award store space to smaller sizes.

Angie that's interesting about the apple shape. I have a good friend who is a plus size petite inverted triangle/apple and she has the most horrendous time buying tops that fit her shoulders and slim hips. Same thing with pants, tight at the waist, swimming in fabric at the ankles.

A hundred years ago a lady wouldn't dream of buying clothes in a store, everything was tailor made for her specifically. I wonder if it is worth the time and energy spent in learning how to make clothes for ourselves because at some level it is impossible to ask a designer to make an article of clothing that fits both my friend's body and my own hourglass/pear shape without considerable alteration. And I'm not thinking of something complicated, just a t-shirt and a pair of jeans for example.

So the problem is that the shape of a plus sized woman is more extreme and pronounced. My shoulders can fit into a size 8 shirt, but my bust needs a size 16. Tailoring is a must for me.

Out of curiosity, why do you not like Project Runway?

Petite apple coming here to say AMEN to Angie! As messed up as it sounds, I sometimes feel fortunate that I've always naturally tended towards this apple shape, so I've been dressing it since puberty and have learned a trick or two along the way. I feel so bad for these lovely, lithe creatures who suddenly find themselves in a hard to fit body after hormones of some sort switch things up on them.

Maybe what we really need to be lobbying for is good tailors to make a come back. The best I have in my area is a dry cleaners who has a lady who can pin (but doesn't do the actual sewing) who is in only on Tuesday mornings. I only take in simple fixes, like hems, because I worry so much about the 2 layers of communication mussing things up.

I doubt I'll ever see a button up shirt that fits me properly in this lifetime, and I don't even know if there IS an alteration for that. I think that's another piece of the problem, many of us with hard to fit bodies might not even know proper fit if it hit us in the head!

Maybe, in short, we're expecting too much of our designers as we've done away with tailors. The world needs more Angies, more seamstresses and more tailors! I'm not really sure we need more clothes, we just need to know how to wear the ones we have...atleast that's the case for me.

Interesting article - As I have always shared I am a plus size gal. For me it is a rarity to get to purchase things that are not tailored - it is just a price of everything I buy. I'm plus size on bottom an straight size on top.

I grew up with a Dad who was a buyer and seller of men's suits so in my world it is normal to have an alteration made to almost everything. I think it is one of the reasons that as a plus size gal a lot of people always comment on how great my clothes fit because I would say 80% of my wardrobe has been tailored to fit my body specifically.

I will tell you though while many plus size people say they will buy the clothes if they are there it is simply not true - I shop at a boutique with high end european designers and know the owner fairly well - she is very successful because of a core group of us and she has some people who fly in from out of town to shop there. Where I'm going is most plus size woman would never pay what I pay for some of my clothes and I have seen it when new people walk into the shop - they look at the prices and walk right out. Over the years I have seen several wonderful lines go under by designers who were getting it and designing right for the plus size body - but if no one is buying the clothes you stop creating.
This happened with my absolute favorite lines and actually happens quite often for new lines trying to dip a toe in plus size fashion who are not fast fashion.

Tim Gunn interviewed on NPR about this article:

http://www.npr.org/2016/09/14/.....size-women

"All the little double and triple zeros" Really? So now that he has taken up "the cause" of plus-sized women, it's perfectly ok to disdain the women on the thin side of the spectrum? When have you ever seen a *little* runway model? Last I checked, they were all pretty tall.

@frannieb I totally understand that, I would love to buy expensive luxurious clothing but It feels so difficult to drop $100 for a shirt, much less more expensive items. I do try to buy quality rather than quantity but at the end of the day it is hard to justify such expensive prices. And tailoring is very expensive too. Last year I needed to buy a gown for an event. I bought the gown for $120 at Nordstrom (it was a steal!) but then had to spend $140 on alterations.

I heard the Tim Gunn interview on NPR also and, although I am a fan, I did think he got a little nasty about the models. The point should be that we all want to dress nice regardless of size and it would be great to see all sizes on runways and in stores.

The average size of the American women is a US12/14 - but the most bought sizes in US retail are sizes 6 to 10.
Bigger sizes don't shop as frequently as smaller sizes for all sorts of
reasons. That's why retailers award store space to smaller sizes.

I can tell you why -- it's depressing! There's only so much ill-fitted sadness one can take on one day. A quick trip to buy jeans turns into a 3 hour master class on why curvy is all wrong, or why I'm just too fat for jeans...either lesson drives home the point. Jeans are my most favorite thing -- I can't wear them to work, but I used to be an avid collector of denim. These days, I'm doing good to find one kind of good fit that I can then take to my seamstress to make into a great fit. Looking for a button up shirt for work? Should be a 20 minute trip, but when nothing buttons up top, that too is a lesson on why a breast reduction might do you good :). I'm borderline, depending on the store, and that's just as bad as sitting firmly in normal sized/plus.

I also noticed that fashion that caters to curves, doesn't always get the main idea. You make a pair of curvy jeans for someone with more hips, thighs, butt -- and you dont add any length to the bottom. So you have a pair of jeans that fits your in the trouble zone, but makes your legs look like two lego blocks because they're so darn short now. Store associates will say "That's just the length now" but I call foul. You can't just fix one problem and thing the garment is now magically "curve friendly" and don't start me on short shirts for curvy women -- give me another inch or two, because the girls take up some fabric space.

The more stores eliminate my department, or are carrying less and less interesting/quality clothing, the less clothes I buy.

I should add I really resent that at the malls near me, two have no plus size clothing. One has a worn out Macy's, Kohl's and Sears. There is also a free standing Target.

I've bought a total of 3 shirts in my county this summer, that's all the clothing. If I look at my closet, it may be in the last few years. For a county of 250,000 people.

Well, this ranting is really helping me realize I won't find what I'm looking for here, and I need to plan to shop elsewhere each season.
Thanks. It's finally sinking in.