Maybe it's a case of "the grass is always greener"?

I tend to agree with Rachylou, though, that being a man can bring a lot of emotional isolation and feelings of responsibility for providing protection and sustenance for those you love. That "bullet proof" armour isn't without its costs. Societal expectations can be tricky things--we can say we don't care, but those tentacles can be deep-rooted and hard to eradicate.

If something goes bump in the night, it's usually the guy who gets pushed out of bed to investigate. And men don't get to squeal when a mouse gets caught in a trap and needs to be disposed. Society is slowly starting to wrap its head around "house husbands" who stay home to care for a newborn while the female works, but there are still lots of sideways looks when a dad goes into a children's bathroom to diaper an infant. And a young male who wants to teach very young children can get a very muted reception from many parents and administrators. Judges, too, are very leery of letting males have full custody of young children when marriages break up; the assumption young children belong with the mothers holds sway in most custody battles.

You're so funny, Xtabay! Old Testament beard!

Speaking of safety... what's interesting to me is EVERYONE I know, 'cept me, is afraid of the ghetto. However, I spent several years in a corporate condo. My boss would use it when I wasn't there. This condo had no door locks on the balcony doors and he'd always draw the shower curtain. I asked him to stop doing that, because when I entered I wanted to be able to see in a quick glance no weirdo was in the apartment. It was just a thought in my mind. Highly unlikely and I'm sure I could hit better than my boss, lol.

Speaking of babies, I saw a study that said the risk of couples breaking up rises when the child reaches four years old. The child can walk and do some chores then. The implication is, men have two mouths to feed besides their own for four years... and then they may get their baby taken away from them. That's really rather sad. I have known quite a few men who have been crushed in this way - and I know quite a few women who've done it to the father of their children. Men LOVE their children, but I think society fails to recognise that. Women and children go first is a rule because they do, not because they are expendable. I find it sad, honestly I do, that society never seems to see men love their children.

Ha, rachylou. Moses! Abraham! The bearded OGs!

Yes, a man losing his children can be just as devastated and grieving as a woman, but will probably show it much differently. A man of my acquaintance that was just given his walking papers by his wife deliberately crashed his vehicle at full speed into a tree and died. Horrifying. It's hard for me to picture a woman dealing with grief and loss like that. Of course, she probably still has the kids, so it really isn't feasible to take herself out of the picture.

Gaylene, yes, the grass is always greener. It's the human condition, no doubt. We are curious creatures, yes?

Gaylene -- re. "Maybe it's a case of "the grass is always greener"?" Lol, all right, you got me. There's always some of that.

You make several fair points. But still, I'd rather trade being the one who goes to investigate those "bumps in the night" (or dealing with, say, unwanted spiders or dead rats -- which, with my squeamish husband and son, is my purview anyway) with the one who has to endure pregnancy, menstruation, harassment, income inequality, and sex bias.

All right, all right, I anticipate hearing a chorus of "but men endure sex bias too" -- it's just that I think I'd prefer their sex bias to mine.

Also, if either of our kids has been injured -- especially if there is blood involved -- I am on the hot seat. My husband, white-faced, mutely hands the responsibility to me. The "manly" ability to be unflappable (and, importantly, not faint) in the face of trauma already happens to be mine.

This all makes me wonder (since I don't know any) -- how do transgender people handle the transition as far as behavior goes? Do they just keep acting the same, or is there some adaptation or change as regards "acting like a man" or "acting like a woman"? It must be overwhelming to deal with both physical and perhaps psychological changes, and what society expects from the new "you." I'm not talking about dressing or other cosmetic changes, but the kinds of male v. female behavior we've been discussing.

Ha! Don't make me talk about that stuff, Xtabay. Lol. As a denizen of the Land of the Liberal. OMG. The in-fighting. The politics. The completely exasperating, labyrinthian ordeal of meeting just one new person. You have to ask first off if they have pets, children, a significant other or others, in that order. Then you have to ask each one's gender identity. Sometimes you have to suss out vegetable, mineral or animal. Then you have to ask if they are vegetarian, vegan, fruitarian, and/or gluten-free. Then you have to negotiate the rules of going out to eat... holding doors open, pulling chairs out, picking up the tab.

My gay best friend, his job - they're tracking like 48 different gender identities. He elects to stay home now and play World of Warcraft online.

Yeah. Don't ask. Don't tell. Everybody is tired.

It is political, that's for sure. Our state legislators just passed a bill saying that people who were born male but identify as female can't use women's restrooms in state-owned buildings (and vice-versa). I'm wondering how they're going to enforce this. Undercover bathroom cops?

Your poor BF, rachylou, staying at home playing WoW -- make him get out and socialize once in awhile. He can just smile and nod and not ask or answer any leading questions!

I have just suggested brunch. He texted back, "Some place with meat?"

Lololol!

Scarred for life, man, scarred for life.

ETA: And don't make me talk about the people who answer the pet question with 'I have BIRDS'... oh my goodness.

Eat, laugh, and enjoy those bacon and eggs, rachylou. Your friend needs to get away from those video games for a bit. Nothing heals the soul like a good brunch with your BF (followed by shoe shopping if possible)!

Now, what's this about birds as pets? I've never had a bird as a pet because I don't like to keep things in cages. Plus a friend's parrot tried to bite my finger off one time. So no birds for moi. I like to go birding, though, and see them in their natural habitat.

From gender to birds: only on YLF!

Bird people are REALLY different

Hehe.

Oh, I love birders! Miss Jane Hathaway (with Jethro!) and Owen Wilson are my kind of people!

While I am not a bird person in the sense that I would have one for a pet, I do adore birds! They're much, much smarter and much more social than humans give them credit for.

But as for strict gender roles, keep in mind that women have them, too. Women are frowned upon and sometimes openly discouraged from pursuing some fields of work. Women who are "too assertive" are called by certain derogatory words. It is assumed that women will act a certain way, and they can often face rejection from society or a mate when they do not conform. The judgement that falls upon a woman who would willingly give up custody during a divorce is immense, for example. Such a woman is often reviled, even though others have no idea what might have led to that decision for her and her family. Women face enormous judgement for not procreating or not marrying, while men generally face no judgement for not marrying or reproducing. And, of course, none of this even touches on the expectation that women wear "professional" clothing that displays their legs and hobbles their feet. I am just saying that although men face enormous pressure to fulfill a certain role, I think the pressure on women is even greater. The ability to wear pants and skirts is hardly a consolation.

And the assumption that a woman will automatically get custody in the case of a divorce is not nearly as true as it once was. Joint custody is always the de facto assumption now, with either party having to prove why it should not be so. Additionally, in the event of a divorce, most men are much better off financially than women, and are thus more equipped to fight a protracted custody battle with a competent attorney. Money often buys custody.

Very true, Echo. Although -- I never had children, and never felt any pressure from family or society to do so. I did experience some shock at my choice from several Chinese graduate students who thought I was a total weirdo for not wanting children. Not an option in China, apparently.

I guess I was lucky. I know some women really feel the pressure of this. I don't know why I didn't, really. I just wanted to work and travel. Maybe it's because I was from a large family. I was the oldest, and was frequently pressed into service for diaper-changing and babysitting duty. I guess it slapped the maternal instinct clean out of me, and I didn't care what anybody thought about that!

I always had the sneaking suspicion that my parents weren't all that enchanted with being parents (well, with five kids, you can't blame them). They were crazy Catholics, though, and birth control wasn't on the menu. I think they were shocked and exhausted most of the time by what they'd gotten themselves into, poor things. I think that's why they never pressured me into having kids.

Xtabay, good for you for living the life that is right for YOU. I am so glad you have not faced pressure to reproduce, as so many women are badgered about it almost endlessly - often by their own families! And many younger women in the working world are assumed to be liabilities to a company because management assumes they will take time off to have children - perhaps this is part of the reason for the pay gap. Nevermind that plenty of women have no interest in having children; it is assumed they will.

My maternal grandmother's sister (my great aunt?) was a nun. She wasn't particularly religious, but she was very pragmatic. At the time she was a young woman, there were virtually no job options available. A woman could be a teacher (until she married), a secretary or perhaps a nurse. Marriage meant babies, and because there was no birth control, there was almost no way around that. Babies tied a woman financially to a man and hobbled her independence more than marriage already did. So in her eyes, if she wanted to pursue a life of study/academia and travel the world, the best way to do it was to be a nun. She did get to study her passions, and she did travel the world, and she never regretted her choice, but what a terrible thing to feel forced into.

That's interesting Echo. I decided not to become a nun because I didn't want to do laundry for the monks... looked at the wrong order, I guess!

OMG, Rachy, too funny!

Wow, Echo. What a decision to be forced into. She was smart to pick an order that allowed her to pursue her studies and see the world. I feel fortunate that I didn't have to make a choice like that. It's VERY hard for me to imagine living a religious life. I like clothes and shoes too much, for one thing.

Nobody should be coerced into having children. It horrifies me that that's the lot in life of so many women. Think of the misery of unwanted children and women who feel trapped by them. Can you imagine what a man would say if someone said, "OK, you have to have this being inside your body for nine months, endure quite a bit of physical discomfort and inconvenience, and then after it's out of your body, you have to be at its beck and call for the next 18 years (or more)." How many do you think would step up to the baby plate? I'm betting we'd have negative population growth. A lot of the men would run away and try to become nuns, I'm sure!

I tell all y'all, the best birth control and most effective means of promoting abstinence is a real sex education. Had to take it three, four times growing up in Hippieland. The last high school one, the teacher got so mad at my class because we came out more than conservative after all that - like a cult that would die out due to lack of reproduction. Lol.

That must have been a scary class! I went to Catholic schools and the "s" subject was not covered or mentioned in the curriculum. Lots of misinformation was passed around informally. I got bits and pieces here and there, and my mother gave me some kind of booklet with female reproductive information. It was all very mysterious and sort of frightening! I remember some girl in my Girl Scout troop explaining the nuts and bolts to me on a camping trip. Pretty sad, right?

My first sex ed was nursery school. We learned about intercourse - in pictures - as well as gestation, and were invited to a live birth. The only thing I didn't know my first day of kindergarten was the F-word sprayed across the handball wall. But I could read, so I was like, 'What's F---?'

Nice coming out of a little girl in patent Mary Janes and a frilly dress, lol.

High school tho, we got to hear about cat killers and tree wives. Biological attraction is really subdued in humans. We have no mating season. You learn enough, and you realise forget the bonobos: people are nimwits and need to put a lid on it. Lol.

Oh, I have to add... so I'm Catholic. Baptised by the same priest that baptised my dad. One thing I've noticed, your tribe within matters - your location, who runs your parish, etc. My spiritual director out west here, she used to run with a Buddhist monk. That is, the Buddhist monks helped build the sisters' chapel for them. Excellent theological discussions at dinner.

But like this one work child of mine from New Jersey, she didn't even ever learn the name of the order that ran her school, or if it was dioscesan (sp?), from K to 12. I was so appalled...Blew my mind completely.

That was a very, um, unusual nursery school, I have to say. Did you not find that a bit overwhelming?

I have no recollection of what religious orders ran my elementary and high schools. They were very different in character. The elementary school nuns were very old-school and mostly from Ireland. They all had eyes in the back of their veils, and could strike terror with just one look. The high school nuns were all American-born and very intellectual. I felt like I could tell them anything and they wouldn't be shocked. They had a worldliness about them that I found intriguing. They were hipster-nuns, I think! I loved them.

My peeps are German and my spiritual director was German too. Very different from the Irish and the American and the Italian. The whole of the Irish and Italian thing over in SF fascinated me, not to mention, esp considering that California was settled by the Spanish first. A lot of different and distinctive flavours.

Anyways, no, I didn't find the nursery school sex ed overwhelming. I think at that age you just accept what people tell you, but the thing is, you also accept how they feel about it. And all these hippies were extremely earthy and matter of fact. 'Nothing to see here.'

I will say by high school, tho, earthy was waning and truthiness was coming in. Just couldn't take that. No. No matter how much you love that tree, no matter that you made wedding vows about that tree, that tree is NOT YOUR WIFE. I just don't care what you say about it: NOT YOUR WIFE.

Yes, and that's why my teacher hated our class. Haha!

Never heard of tree wives. Are there tree husbands, too? Why do trees need marital partners, anyway? They just kind of sit there and photosynthesize, as far as I can tell. I don't know, maybe that's the ideal kind of partner! Less talking + more photosynthesizing = fewer marital spats.

I got "married" when I was 7 years old in my family's garage to a neighborhood boy. My best friend did the ceremony. No rings, but he gave me a blue and yellow braided plastic bracelet he'd made in the Boy Scouts. I gave him a kiss on the cheek. I think the "marriage" lasted about a week, and then my family went off to the mountains for the summer and ended my little romantic adventure!

Lol, Xtabay!

My one piece of advice: Marry a nice tree. An evergreen. Not a deciduous... they just throw their clothes on the floor and never pick up!

Alrighty, then! Evergreens it is. I don't own a leaf-blower, and I can't borrow their leaves to wear ("boyfriend leaves"?), so deciduous is definitely out. My bur oak will be so heartbroken! That dude is rather untidy at certain times of the year.

If you have other dating or marital advice, please do share!

Well I bought an apple tree once, and was told I needed a mate for it, so that it would reproduce. The green apple partner unfortunately died a year later and I despaired for the red apple tree since as far as I could see none of my neighbors had apple trees. However nature (in the form of bees?) found a way and somewhere within the flight area there must have been a speckled apple that cross-bred with my tree, giving us a surprise harvest and tasty fruit!

Oh rabbit! Running off with a deciduous apple!

What a nice story for the spring season, rabbit. The bee and the tree -- a match made in heaven. It's lovely how a chance encounter can lead to a tasty harvest of sweet apples.

Darn it, now I want some apple pie....

Xtabay, Thanks for starting this conversation. I am enjoying all the wild tangents.