I also want to clarify that my own comments about female specific hormonal ups and downs were not meant to imply that women are less than in any way -- I was thinking actually of female specific illnesses that I have struggled with.

I agree with Echo on this one. Why is no one questioning male hormones???

Well, we sure are questioning them, Suz! Let's question the heck out of that testosterone. It has a LOT of 'splainin' to do.

Stylefan, thanks for coming back to read!

Rachylou, I think those women have just been taught to think that way, just like people learn prejudice and racism. It has to be taught. They hear it at home and among those with whom they form social bonds. It goes way back and comes from fear and ignorance. It's hard to break away from when it's hard-wired in, and has never been questioned or examined rationally. Critical thinking: a thing of the past?

It's interesting. My personal experience I know is different. A lot of my friends moms were at home. But in my family, like both my grandparents ran their own businesses and everyone worked in them. There was never any question of women not working... although at the same time it was still within a kind of protected environment.

Then I look at my friends from the Middle East. I remember debating my soldier friend on the role of women there. He found Middle Eastern women much more solicitous. But I felt he should look closer. Men are, IMO, treated like guests in their own homes... which means they don't have a home. They don't have a place.

Then I look at many many Americans... When they gather, women go to the kitchen and men go outside. Women have the whole house; men get a little room over the garage. There's a similarity. I know quite a lot of women, peers, who have never gone to work in the public sphere and don't want to. Many women like their sex segregation.

I often feel women have carved out a space and they are very PROTECTIVE of it. And they have done crazy things to achieve it - like foot binding. And they train their sons to expect it and perpetuate it too. I think many women feel they have something to GAIN from it, sexism.

I never thought of it that way, rachylou. Everyone protecting their territory. Women in the cave, cooking and rocking the cradle, men out hunting and killing, and running for president. Is there no possible route from the cave into the oval office?

Something to think about. 'What's the enticement?' What would make you do like Ragnar Lothbrok and Lagertha, leaving your kingdom village unprotected to sail off the edge of the world?

I have learnt a lot from this thread (cisgender as a term for example).

I would love to spend a month in someone else's body or mind for a change - but I suspect that would bring up a whole lot of complications. Besides isn't that what great literature does - in my mind I was certainly Holden in "The Catcher in the Rye", Bilbo in "The Hobbit" and Lizzie in "Pride and Prejudice" as well as Julian in "The Famous Five", and Lata in "A Suitable Boy" ....

As someone not from the US, I have to be cautious criticising your wonderful beautiful country. But I would agree that gender played a significant role in the recent election, sometimes overtly, sometimes much more covertly.

You are not alone, however. NZ has had two female leaders (one for nine years, one for one year), and Helen Clark had to put up with continual criticisms on her appearance and unconventional (but longstanding) marriage. As did Julia Gillard in Australia.

At one stage we had a Female Governor General (Queen's representative), Chief Justice, Prime Minister and of course Queen. Both our major parties have female Deputy leaders and the recent change in our Labour Party was from one female to another.

Where I live, men take over the living areas after a meal while women stay in the kitchen. Indeed, men usually not only have the living areas, but also often have a "man cave" and/or office especially for themselves. Women mostly decorate the home, but that doesn't mean they fully inhabit it.

And the whole "hand that rocks the cradle" expression bothers me. There is a developmental milestone children hit where they start to identify with the parent of the same sex. In many societies, boys go with their fathers and learn to treat women as second class citizens. They go home and try that treatment out on their mothers and find it is tolerated by the mother (for fear of retribution from the father) and encouraged by the father. The mother doesn't instill ideas of equality into their boys because when the boys inevitably question their fathers about unequal treatment, the mothers will be punished for teaching their boys not to be "real men."

In many societies around the world, women are forced to leave their communities of birth and their families when they marry. Their "home" is theirs by the grace of their new community, their in-laws and their husband. They are often denied any inheritance rights, property ownership or ability to get loans. They generally have no access to birth control and not even the autonomy to reject sexual advances, and thus cannot control how many children they have.

What I am trying to say is that while it may be funny to say that women run the house in the US or that they are protecting their domain, that isn't the case in much of the rest of the (non-Western) world. Women are lucky to own their own bodies, let alone anything outside them. To say that women are perpetuating the sexism they live under is narrow-minded and insulting, IMO.

I think all the women who voted for the man and not the woman completely reject the idea they were browbeaten into it or were duped or are too ignorant to know better. Conservative women own their conservative positions. And that's where the rubber hit the road this election in the US.

This is a interesting topic. I am glad to be a woman because I think the sexism I have faced in my career has given me a better insight into the prejudice faced by others (race, gender diversity, religion), and how hard it can be to change people's preconceived views about you. Sometimes it is not about you at all, it is about them, and you have to accept that and let the anger go....

I have a son and it is my job to raise him to respect all people.

Our newest manager wanted to fire a man of slight build because he was a man and didn't seem able to lift 50 lbs to her while at the same time trying to prevent all the women at the bakery from lifting anything 25 lbs and over. We have a requirement of everyone being able to lift 50 lbs that we often ignore. I had to tell her - and continue to have to tell her - that she cannot say and do things like that. She is trying to 'protect the girls.' This is what she tells me literally.

I've had another manager ask me to go into the (germy) restroom to take my insulin shot where other people can't see, which unbeknownst to him is completely illegal. To not offend sensibilities.

I've had a person yell at and quit on me because she put outside food on one of our gluten-free plates, meant for customers, to give to a contractor painting a wall. Because I was 'not showing hospitality.' Never mind that we cater to people with celiacs.

Fairness, power dynamics, what principle applies when - tricky little concepts. Easy to fall flat on your face.

Amen to that, rachylou. Very easy to do.

Sally, that's interesting about NZ. It sounds like women there can make it to the top, but still get the usual scrutiny about their hair and wardrobe. Of course, Trump is getting the same criticisms here ( hair, especially), so maybe the playing field is getting more level in that regard. And you're so right about literature being a great way to get inside the head of others.

Thanks for your comments, Echo, you have much wisdom. I know what you mean by women in other countries not even owning their own bodies or homes. I have traveled in some of those countries and witnessed it (with horror). , BTW, I don't think anyone on here has been narrow-minded or insulting and I'll stand by everything I said.

Bijou, you are so right that being a woman helps you understand other oppressed groups. We women are fortunate that way. White male privilege can be pretty blinding when it comes to understanding the plight of others.

I wonder if the Native Americans are going to get together at some point and ship all of us Caucasians back to Europe? Can't say I'd blame them!

Back to something I think Suz said, I do think it is very important that we have readily available literature, films, television shows etc showing a range of people in a range of situations - it is happening now, but certainly there still are movies where the woman is the "girlfriend" and the gay friend is there for comic relief etc. And that this is readily available for teenagers forming their identity...I know there are many great examples of this but I imagine within some sectors of the community they are not readily available.

Xtabay - I have friends that won't wear dresses, it feels inauthentic to them. And there are many ways to wear very elegant pants looks in most situations.

And (political comment ahead) while I very much struggle with President 45 and the current administration, I do not support criticism of his appearance, nor anyone else in an elected position.

I'd like to see Richard Spencer try to go back to Europe. Lol.

Ok ok. Sorry. Peanut gallery comment.

He'd have to disguise himself as a black woman, rachylou, to make the passage over.

Hehe. That would be an experience for him (!)

Rachy , YES !!! His wife IS Russian. Maybe they could go "visit" ? . this is a fascinating thread. I think that I would want to be a woman, just without severe endometriosis. My daughter is showing signs of having it too and it breaks my heart. I would like, however, to experience life as a man for a few days.

I don't see at all how he squared marrying Russian in his head. Then again, they're separated...

I don't know if I could stand being a man for a single day. I don't know how they make it through the day.

Ok. You know who I want to be for a day? Paula Deen's son. I'd like to hear what - and how - she passed on her pearls of wisdom about identity and how to go on. Or maybe Ivanka's children. I wonder what she tells her children in secret. And what grandpa says.

My parents were a riot. My dad could insult and denigrate everyone on all four corners rolling through an intersection. And my mom, she's proud of being a peasant, but woe to any other peasants around. Lol, guess that's what they had in common...

Hmm, even a quick reading of history shows women DO start wars just as readily as men when in positions of power and influence. Elizabeth I, Catherine the Great, and Margaret Thatcher are just a few who were as eager to send young men into battle as any man. And, throughout history, women have shown themselves just as capable of committing atrocities and crimes as men, so I find it hard to think of my gender as being innately more empathetic or the "gentler" sex.

I'm also not sure that the "white male privilege" isn't a double-edged sword for many young men who find that stereotype at odds with their own values and inclinations. From what I've witnessed as the sole female in a household of men, growing up male isn't much easier than growing up female. Hearts are broken and sensitivities exist, but young males are ridiculed for publicly showing them while young females are comforted.

I'll stick with being a female because I think females get a better deal, at least in most Western societies. As a female, I can define myself outside of a stereotypical female role by adopting male dress, or by choosing to be more direct and assertive in social settings, or by assuming a more androgynous identity. Men, on the other hand, get a much harder time if they show "feminine" traits too often or too freely. The latitude shown to me by society isn't extended as freely to males who push the boundaries.

I'd be interested to know, Gaylene, about specific instances of women actually starting a war. Sending people into battle isn't quite the same thing.

Sounds like you enjoy life as a woman, so cheers to that! From what I can see, though, it's still (with a tip of the hat to James Brown) a man's, man's, man's man's world.

I found this: http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2.....kings.html

and this:
http://www.rejectedprincesses.com/women-in-combat

...but hey, why doesn't sending people into battle count? I mean, people always have pretenses for war, they always pretend they're just defending themselves...

I confess I have never heard of any of these battle-waging women. I was thinking more in terms of major wars, where a country was invaded for power-grabbing reasons. I see defending one's country against an aggressor as very different from starting up with another country due to the lust for lebensraum, or whatever.

Interesting article about the role of the male spouse in helping a reigning queen conduct a war, Rachylou. Makes sense you need someone to run domestic affairs and collect taxes while the Queen has her hands full with tactics and generals--or even going into battle herself!

As for starting a war, Xtabay, that's a very tricky question. Who instigates a conflict is a political and ideological question which depends on highly subjective criteria. A declaration of war is usually accompanied by a rationale which serves the interests of the country which makes the declaration. And many very nasty conflicts have been fought without either side ever formally issuing a declaration of war.

I stand behind my view that my sex is as capable of indulging in lies, deception, intrigue, violence, and destruction as are the males of our species. What fascinates me, though, is why we keep attributing female oppression to men. In my mind, women are much more effective at oppressing each other and maintaining a ideological stereotype of femininity. A brief walk through the halls of any junior or senior high school negates the image of the "gentler" sex pretty quickly. Those "queen bees" would be pretty ruthless dictators and warlords if given a chance to exercise their powers globally.

ETA: I wish I could remember the general who famously remarked. "My opponent is always the aggressor". Makes sense when both warring nations usually invoke self defense and/or God as being on their side.

Yes, indeed, Gaylene, I remember those queen bees very well. When I want to torture myself, I recall those cringe-worthy highschool hallway moments, and break out into a cold sweat. Terrifying, those bees. I got stung many times, alas.

And yes, war is a slippery discussion slope, but I can't help but think of it as something men have indulged in, since that's what I read in all my schoolbooks. But the historians have never been too good at taking note of women's noteworthy accomplishments, have they? That's why I can't think of any female war-starters, I suppose.

One of those women in one of those lists - she went invading, because her people were starving. She was agressive, but she had a reason... I'm guessing whether one saw her as an attacker or a defender depends on which side of the field you stood on...

Right you are, rachylou. My mind reels at the thought of having to go to war just to eat. I wonder how she got thrust into that role? Could you see yourself doing that? If I were hungry enough, I guess I'd have to enlist, although I find the idea of attacking someone for their food very repugnant. Makes me glad I live in modern times, where I can just march down to the local food bank.

And happy International Women's Day to all. Wear red (make that tomato red for Angie) and celebrate all that women bring to the world!

I'd be a guy. No question. Being a woman just has too many drawbacks -- and guys have to wear clothes, too. No reason why I couldn't have fun with fashion as a man.

ETA I'll agree with Gaylene that there are drawbacks to being male -- not being "allowed" to express certain feelings publicly, for example -- and of course, as the mother of boys you would notice this, Gaylene. And I'm also inclined to agree that being female in a Western culture is far, far better than being female in, say, Arabia. But I'd still rather be a man. Being a woman offers very few advantages, and look at all these cons I can think of off the top of my head:

- women are more likely targets for rape and domestic abuse

-women are (even in Western culture) expected to do the caregiving, when caregiving must be given, whether or not we want to

- GLASS CEILING (it ain't going away until there's universal government-subsidized child care)

- hard to be assertive without being judged a "bitch"

- pressure to look beautiful (this is way worse for women, and don't say this is only pressure from other women, because that's bullshit, men use the beauty stick to beat us too -- look at the relentless internet trolling of any woman who speaks up about anything. Latest one I read about was Mary Beard getting called out for her looks because some people didn't like what she had to say. Actually, that ties in to my previous point about assertive women getting judged)

- PREGNANCY (ok well some of you probably loved it, but for me it was like a horrifying science experiment. I was appalled that to become a mother, I had to endure months of what was essentially incubating a parasite. I would have minded it less if pregnancy wasn't so darn bad for you. It's really hard on all your systems and leaves lots of women with pelvic floor issues that only get worse with time. I'm so glad I can still bounce on a trampoline without wearing protective undergarments! I have a number of friends who can't).

- possibility of unwanted pregnancy -- which, if it occurs, leaves you with very few, and mostly deeply unappealing, options

- when you are pregnant, some governments don't think that you own your body any more

- menstrual periods (because when you're not a baby-making machine, why not have monthly cramps with the possibility of embarrassing leakage?)

- menopause!

- street harassment

On the other hand, the pros:

- we can weep publicly

- we can wear skirts AND pants

Hmmm...the pros list seems pretty thin.

Well, certainly being female is incredibly uncomfortable physically, IMO. Your body is always beating you up!

But honestly, I think of my father. Stoically bearing the din of criticism, complaining, mewling and demands. That is the privilege of women and children. The onus was always on him, not my mother - tho she made more money - to keep the electricity on and food in the pantry. My father didn't get to ask for anything for himself. He didn't have the right to ask for help.

That's a scary burden to me. I know a lot of men fail at that and get demanding, even tyrannical, but it's a mark of failure, not privilege.

I really doubt I could take that kind of emotional isolation and pressure ... although maybe if I were a man, I could. Don't know.

Rachylou, what you say may well be true for many men. Men have more freedom, but it comes at a cost. My father-in-law certainly felt the burden of responsibility settle on his shoulders one he had kids, even though my mother-in-law still worked. If my own father felt it, he never mentioned it.

I don't think it has been the general experience of the men in my cohort that I know personally, though. None of them ever -- EVER -- talk about breadwinning as a burden. Mind you, most of the guys I know socially well enough to talk about this lead a pretty privileged existence. I'm only seeing a small slice of the pie.

I thought of another con for men. If you get a woman pregnant, the burden is hers -- but so is the decision. Freedom of choice is what you get when you also have the responsibility. And if she makes a choice you don't like, there's nothing you can do. You may be a father waaaaaay before you're ready. I'll be having some serious talks with my son one day about this.

I'm sure that men take their lumps in the world just as we women do. I have to say that I do envy their simpler, er, "plumbing," and the fact that they don't seem to worry a lot about personal safety. I'm always making sure that the windows and doors are locked, and the men just seem oblivious. Feeling bullet-proof seems to come with the male territory. I do envy that. (I've been a violent crime victim, though, so maybe I'm more paranoid than the average woman.) And oy, the "plumbing" issues, and always worrying about those leaks. I was pretty happy to have menopause come along, actually, to get rid of a few of them. Now shaving every day -- that I could do without! I'd probably have one of those Old Testament beards that a lot of the young guys have these days.