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bodies and morality

adorkable

Veteran

I posted recently on Shannon's thread about being stylish and slim, and Day Vies suggested I start a new thread for this issue. I've edited slightly, but the substance remains the same.

What I took from some comments on that thread was a reminder that society as a whole sees certain types of bodies as transparent reflections of the person, and as worthy of moral judgment.

If you're heavy, people assume you must be: unhealthy, lacking in self-control, disgusting, sloppy, etc. etc. If you're quite curvy (independent of size, although these things interact), you must be: slutty, sexual, indecent, asking for it, etc. I'm sure there are other stereotypes of other body types, but these are the two that have come up.

Obviously, this is ridiculous. You can't know anything about someone's health, lifestyle, or morality based on what they're shaped like - you can only know what they're shaped like. Let me note here that there are similar issues surrounding both race and disability, and I'm sure others will point out other issues as well.

One thing that's especially insidious is that if you're of a shape/size that means that people wrongly feel entitled to make moral judgments about you, there's a tremendous amount of pressure to dress to counteract those "automatic" judgments.

I always worry that to some extent, doing so only reinforces the stereotype. If we dress to avoid the stereotypes that "All [heavy, curvy, etc.] women are X" are we convincing people that it's not true, or are we only convincing them that "[Particular woman] is special and thus not X"?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Most of us can't afford the negative personal judgment, but I bet most of us would also like to get rid of the judgment altogether.

(I know for myself that at the end of the day, I do keep in mind the issues about curves when I dress, because I experience that kind of judgment - but I don't like that I do!)

Please forgive my rambling, and please do chime in. I'm very interested in how people of different sizes and shapes are perceived (and, yes, stereotyped), and I'm curious what others think or have experienced.

General

40 replies

Latest reply was from Runcarla

Adelfa

Veteran

I don't know if anyone's ever thought anything about my larger than average bust, but I do know that every single day I dress to minimize and conceal it. I tell myself that I want to be professional, not draw attention to myself, not look like I'm trying too hard or like I'm too old to be flaunting myself. So I'm far, far away from the attitude that I'll just forget about the judgment.

Marillen

Well judgment of any kind is always going to exist, even though it can be negative. Some things, like large breasts = indecent are not just social but biological as well. It's unfair, but there it is. Sorry if I sound really mean I swear I'm not~

I'm not the greatest example but: I have slightly broad shoulders, smallish bust, straight frame, lots of height, and--err not necessarily masculine, but not feminine features. I do indeed have a mild complex of being mistaken as a man by strangers, though no one has said so to my face. Some days I do dress more "androgynous" cause I feel like it and I look good and screw that complex! The consensus to these kinds of discussions frequently boils down to "dress for yourself" so I'm not being much of a help.

About dressing to counteract judgments as reinforcement of the
original stereotype, I may be an unobservant/ignorant person but...do most people think that far ahead about what
someone else is wearing? This sounds like one of those things that only the person wearing the outfit would care about. :\ lol I'm sorry my stone-cold logic brain is in full
flow and I have youthful stubborn (naive?) feelings about independent
thought and free will and all that, feel free to ignore me aaaaah

...i think i'm going to regret posting this

Janet

(website)

Veteran

A, I thought your comments on that thread were dead on, and it's not fair, but we are judged every time we step out the door -- our gender, skin color, race, body shape, style of dress, etc.

I've never taken great pains to conceal the fact that I have a large bust (I do try to play down the hips, but those are a less "desirable" body trait in our contemporary North American society). Anyone who measures me or anyone else by our physical traits is, quite frankly, not worth my worry. For one thing, I'm way too old to wonder if someone thinks I'm "slutty" because I have big boobs. I never worried about that when I was young, and I quite comfortably wore bodycon styles (I still wear them sometimes, but not quite as comfortably). I got some unwanted attention, but I've always been good at deflecting that politely yet effectively.

leopardluxe

Veteran

I've always been a bit of a nonconformist but probably about 15-20 or so years ago I just stopped caring at all about what others thought of me (as it relates to conforming to, or being judged against, societal norms, anyway). I still generally try to be a kind and polite person (the whole "do unto others..." and all). So I go out of my way to not judge others or to measure my value, self, or success against what I might perceive theirs to be. My worth is determined by me and me alone (and again I mention that whole golden rule as an internal measure).

Many times I will see some elderly woman rocking this crazy look and think, "you go girl! Own it. I want to be that carefree and crazy-happy looking when I'm your age."

Other times I hear someone saying something unkind about someone heavy or overly skinny and I've called them out on it. Who are they to judge? You know nothing of that person. (I have two sisters who are morbidly obese due to thyroid condition and food addiction).

People will judge and stereotype no matter what. It's their issue. I just try to set a good example with my actions and words and hope that over time, "societal norms" will expand because people (like us) will send a clear message that it is not okay and acceptable to judge someone based on how someone *looks*. I'd rather be judged for my actions or words than the clothing on my body, the color of my skin, the shape of my body, etc. But I don't feel the need to show/prove my value by trying to conform to a standard in order to not be judged.

If others choose to judge. So be it. It makes me a bit sad for them.

My hope is eventually humanity will get there. But till then, I thumb my nose at all those folks who feel they need to judge others without first taking a good, hard look in the mirror and judging themselves based on their actions and behaviors.

Vildy

Veteran

Here's what comes to my mind: Have you read the articles on Normcore?
Here's one:
http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk.....icons.html

The point is to look inconspicuous. And that involves people with celebrity and money aping people who don't.

So what I think is that anybody who was very busty, obese, skinny, you name it, wouldn't attract criticism nor judgment, exactly because they would be dressed and presenting themselves inconspicuously. Those who are dressing to attract attention (nicely, attractively, pretty, chic etc) are the ones coming in for the judgment. So it's not completely about people's ideas that they attach to body types and parts but it's linked to people with those body types and parts presuming to draw attention to themselves. Perhaps a "know your place" mindset that people should be ashamed of their differences and not be causing other people to focus on them.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

These are interesting questions and thoughts.

I'm torn here. Part of me believes that YES. We are judged each time we step out our door - about everything. And the other part of me believes that we are spending way too much time thinking about this and intellectualizing it. That the universe does not revolve around us. And that people aren't judging us the way we think they are because they actually don't care.

ironkurtin

Veteran

Amen, Angie! Now I'm going to go put on a super soft sweater and jeans and just enjoy.

I don't want to shut down intellectualization, but at the end of the day what you can't fix you can't worry about. I've been judged my whole life and guess what? It all works out! Boobs or no boobs, glasses or no glasses, hips or no hips. All will be well.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

And Amen right back at you, IK. At some point everyone needs to bat for Team Get On With It.

JayS

Veteran

Add me to the Amen chorus.

columbine(erin)

Veteran

I appreciated Gaylene's comments

Gaylene

Veteran

I'm going with Angie on this one because I think so much depends on the person, the situation, and the observer's own issues. While I truly believe that what we put on our bodies is a big part of our nonverbal communication, we can't control how our visual signals will be interpreted by others.

People make assumptions and judgements of others based on their own experiences, attitudes, and personal quirks. A small percentage of random observers will love you, a small percentage will dislike you, and the vast majority will probably be somewhere between the two extremes, or won't be interested enough to form a value judgement.

I think that Vildy makes a good point about visibility. Perceptual theory tells us that we are drawn to things that we perceive as novel or unusual. If you look different in a particular setting, you may draw attention, especially if an observer is predisposed to liking, or disliking, that aspect. So be it.

Ultimately, though, it's your own reaction to other people's thinking that is really important. I think part of the issue is that, as women, so many of us have been conditioned to want universal approval from others, even strangers. Even when we know, logically, that this is impossible, it can still be upsetting when someone misinterprets our signals and acts on that misinterpretation. We can't control others' reactions and judgements, but we can learn to diminish our sensitivity to strangers' assessments and lean more on the judgements of people who are important to us and our own personal feelings.

LoriFLA

I completely agree Angie!

Janet, I'm with you. I'm too old to care and really, if people are out there making assumptions and judging harshly (I don't think they are… we just judge ourselves too harshly sometimes and think people are out there judging us), it's beyond my control and doesn't weigh on my mind.

And speaking of judging ourselves, I don't do that either too much in my old age. I think this is more a problem with youth. When I hit 40, or a couple years before, something snapped in my brain and I was able to accept myself and accept others more graciously. I wish I had evolved sooner, it would have saved a lot of inner turmoil, but this is life.

Linda

I just thought I would add that if you find this discussion intriguing, you really owe it to yourself to watch/read Lupita Nyong'o's Essence awards speech. I heard it last night on The Last Word and it is pretty amazing. She talks about being black and feeling beautiful. It's very relevant IMO to this thread: http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-.....0931139994

mrseccentric

(website)

Veteran

Hi Marillen! " Some things, like large breasts = indecent are not just social but biological as well." I hadn't heard this explained biologically before, can you point me to some info. about this? Thanks!

At the end of the day i root for Team Get On With It, but....it is not always easy to get to the end of the day. I have two good looking parents, and grew a body that reflected many people's ideal of beauty and sexiness. As a result, by the time i was 16 i was dressing to downplay my figure and to project a very 'covered up' vibe, very careful to not be overly friendly or familiar.

But it never worked all that well....i was getting heavy sexual pressure from boys and men from the time i was around 9 or 10, the only guys with the guts to ask me out in high school were 26, 30....even i had to wonder what they saw in a 14 year old (tho one of these guys has remained a friend of the family and married a lady significantly older than he - i think he just sees people not ages

It's harder to "just get on with it" when you forget and get into a routine at the grocery store and one of the checkers gets a huge crush on you and starts a screaming fight about why won't you go out with him, bringing the entire store (filled with all your neighbors) to a grinding halt. You could go elsewhere, except for the car trouble and this store is closer with better food and better prices and - why? Or you're between classes at UC, thinking about ancient archaeology and some doctor at the corner cafe decides you should marry him and, again, wants to get into a screaming match about it when you're 'oh, no thank you' and scooting away, as you never even saw this man before in your life. (And everyone is looking at you with accusation in their eyes.)

By the time i reached my early twenties i had the drill down - how to dress and behave and keep the shields up constantly to avoid a lot of this stuff. But it didn't really stop so much as i took on the proactive responsibility for managing and deflecting it. Which is a pain in the ass and does not improve your relationships with your fellow human beings, in fact it can actively interfere with romance and friendships. I met my dear friend Shawn (a guy) in art class. He offered me a ride across campus after one class a few weeks in, and he still brings up how i just tensed up all over and he thought, 'oh man this lady must get hit on all. the. time.!!!' Fortunately Shawn is a nice and smart guy and didn't take it personal.

And my husband gets irritated that i dress and act very modestly, esp. in public but of course you develop habits. I had to laugh when one day, at his request, i wore a cute little bust-enhancing Ann Ferriday top as we strolled around Alameda, CA on a Sunday afternoon. After a couple of hours, he just burst out, "Jesus Christ! Can't these guys stop just ogling and drooling over your breasts!!!! (insert further salty New Yorkisms)!!!!!" Frankly, all the guys that day were pretty polite, acting abashed but still taking a peek. And it got to my husband even so - i bring it up now and again

As it happens, my mom is pretty fat and very very smart. She worked in school administration and in development at UCB during her professional life, so obviously she was very good at what she did and also a complete workaholic. And she had to deal with regular, recurring horsepucky because she was large and so 'obviously' lazy, dumb, socially inept.....incidentally, one of the reasons she carried so much weight was in order to avoid the type of attention i describe receiving in this post. Mom in her teens/early twenties looked a lot like Shelley Winters did when she was rooming with Marilyn Monroe. And yes when mom did take off some weight she got sexually harassed by her boss.

Anyways, this is long (heehee, well not so long for me) and a bit rambling, but i hope it gives people a sense of what i'm getting at. Of course just wallowing in this stuff and over-intellectualizing will get you nowhere. At the same time, if it is just in your face constantly (and truth be told pretty scary at times, i've left those ones out) it takes time, practice, and skill in order to figure out how you are going to handle this attention from people who get ideas about you based on your body. It does take a lot of emotional and intellectual energy to sort all this out (which would be better spent elsewhere), and it can easily warp your personality. It does help to talk it out with other people.

So i hope that my stories here and some of the other very insightful thoughts from people on thisi board help people who may be dealing with this stuff know that you're not alone, it's not all in your head, it can suck to deal with it but you can figure out a way to go forward as your authentic self and even - have fun with fashion!!!! Happy Day, steph

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Gaylene

Veteran

Excellent point, Steph, to remember that responding to someone else's concern with a "just ignore it" probably isn't that respectful or helpful. One of the best things about the discussions in this forum is all the insight we get into each other's experiences and thoughts. Thanks for the reminder.

rae

(website)

Veteran

Sometimes I do worry about how people judge me, because a lot of my job may depend on what snap judgements people make. For example, I worry that my body may look "low class" and like I can't know about designer clothes that fit best on very slim, tall, long-legged figures.

But that kind of thinking can be such a downward spirale. I try to please myself the best I can with my image and then "get on with it" as Angie said.

ironkurtin

Veteran

Steph, that sounds awful. I really have to wonder what is wrong with men that they think this behavior is OK. I encountered some harassment, but at the same time was always told that I wasn't attractive -- seems like we all get it both ways, huh? (And to be honest I always ignored both pieces of information, because the people harassing and insulting me were men I would never, never even consider touching. Poor pathetic dingbats.) Which is why I thought "get on with it" was a good philosophy, because really what else can one do? You can be unhappy or you can rise to it.

I don't know what that has to do with morality, though. I don't look at bodies and make moral judgements. I don't assume big boobs are equated with sluttiness, or little ones with primness. I don't even assume dressing provocatively necessarily means someone wants sex unless the person's behavior reinforces that.

I admit that I do see some very large bodies and feel sorrow for the discomfort their shape must cause them physically - knees, hearts, lungs. But that's different from assigning a moral value.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Yep, I think we do judge. We ALL do, without necessarily intending to. We are biologically hardwired to make quick judgments. Prehistorically, it would have been maladaptive not to do this. (We tend to forget that civilization is actually quite a recent thing in the evolution of the human species). But I also think we are more than capable of modifying our assumptions if we choose to devote some brainpower to it. That's one of the things that makes humans interesting. When it comes to learning and modifying natural instincts, humans have great scope.

My personal experience has been that it's harder to get taken seriously when you're small. So maybe people underestimate me at first. It doesn't take long for them to learn what I'm really like.

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

Morality?!?! Strange choice of words.
Team Angie on this one. A lot of people just get about their day, mostly ignoring others.

For example I commute by bus, most people do not notice others AT ALL. I once gave up my seat on a very crowded bus to a woman with a boot (orthopedic splint style) because nobody else noticed her. And I was in the middle of the bus, so had to walk by lots of people before she got to me.
Or even if they do judge you they will have most likely forgotten you the next day. Most people are not memorable. Heck, I don't remember most of the patients I saw last week.

Mo

(website)

Veteran

Didn't someone here mention recently a high school classmate remarking about no one in her class noticing her wearing braces and the whole time she was mortified about them? It's true, we are not the center of the universe that we can sometimes imagine we are

April

Veteran

In spite of a common-yet-not-universal American male tendency to find women with larger breasts sexy, I don't believe that most people judge a woman who happens to have them as promiscuous. Let's be honest -- giggling sixth-graders and high school boys in a froth of hormones and curiosity don't really count, no matter how many painful female adolescences they may be responsible for.

shiny

Veteran

I'm with Aziraphale on this one. Humans are hard-wired to make snap judgments, it is simply how our brains work. We have to be able to sum people & situations up quickly. Even when one is fully conscious of this and strives to apply a rational mind, the hard wiring is still there, and always will be.

Is this person threatening? Dangerous? Trustworthy? A healthy potential mate? Generous? Etc, etc... There are so many subtle cues that play into this, that have zero to do with how one dresses. Our brains make these calculations instantly, and usually without any rational awareness. A woman with 0.7 waist/hip ratio, no matter what your weight, with shiny hair, white teeth and good skin automatically translates into "potential mate." Whereas a man with a square jaw translates into as short-term partner for women who are ovulating; and men with more rounded jaws we instantly size up as long term partner material.

Our brains are often accurate, but not always. Research shows that while women are excellent at picking convicted criminals out at first sight, women are completely unable to identify the rapists.

I am short and have a baby face; people meeting me for the first time sum me up as "non threatening" and, well, cute.... like a child... and someone needing protecting. That's not so bad. I can work with that.

All is not lost though: research also shows that once we've sized a new person up in those first few minutes, we file away a rough sketch of them in our brains. And then the next time we see them, we reconstruct our image according to that rough sketch. Which means, yeah, nobody is paying such close attention. We don't actually ever SEE people as they really are, we see them as we THINK they are. It's more efficient. And it means we have a big blind spot for people we see most often, day after day. Our partners and friends do not see the weight fluctuations, the bad hair days, the developing wrinkles, the outfit flops, or any of that. God bless them!

And I kept reminding myself of that while at my last business meetings. I was ultra careful about what I wore for the first day - first impressions - then did not fret so much the rest of the time. I knew nobody was seeing any of the detailed differences. They were recreating me in their brains based on the first impression.

catgirl

Veteran

All I know is that nothing gives me more joy than challenging someone's assumptions about me as a small brown female. To quote MaryK, underestimate me at your peril!

mrseccentric

(website)

Veteran

Thank you Gaylene and Dana (big hug) steph

rachylou

Veteran

Well now, an interesting question. And interesting replies. We all assess things constantly, and have to. Talk to this person, or that one, or no one at all. Have we got the time, have we got the money, have we got the bandwidth to handle the sort of troubles they'll bring with them. That last one, that's where I think making moral judgements about other people comes in.

But I'm not sure how direct the line is. I confess I come from fat-haters, but I think the moral judgement starts out as a self-doubt most of the time. As in, "I think I'm too active to match pace with this person."

Big boobs, same thing. To be honest, I think they hold a kind of morbid fascination for most people. Some people, tho, are frightened by them, and others think you're just a hot mama.

Things turn into moral judgement when people insist (erroneously) the object of their feelings causes their feelings...

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

I ultimately agree with Angie and others here. No one is thinking about us nearly as much as we think about ourselves. Which is not to say I still don't remember the first time I was called a slut at age 11 or so because I developed relatively early.

adorkable

Veteran

I haven't been checking in today, so please have some patience with me as I go through and respond, a few at a time.

I will start by saying I suppose it's obvious that I am pretty wildly political.

I'm quite thick-skinned, also, so I don't ever feel particularly personally troubled by someone calling *me* slutty for my body type - it's about the bigger issue of injustice, and who it does or does apply to.

adorkable

Veteran

Responding a bit selectively since I am really zonked today.

@Vildy: I hadn't heard of normcore. It kind of ... makes me sad. I don't care if people want to conform, but if the end result is more judgment...

@Linda: I love, love, love her - thanks so much for sharing!

@mrseccentric: Ugh to all of it, but those are exactly the kinds of issues I'm thinking of. I really appreciated your stories and input!

@rachylou: "Things turn into moral judgement when people insist (erroneously) the object of their feelings causes their feelings..." Amen, amen, amen! Couldn't have said it better myself!

MsMary

Veteran

This is a gigantically hot-button topic for me but I have to tiptoe in and agree wholeheartedly with Steph that Team Get On With It is all well and good but there is real discrimination out there and we need to be careful that Team Get On With It doesn't morph into Team Suck It Up Because It's Your Own Fault Anyway.

And Rachylou, yes! Kate Harding used to talk about how people got so upset at her for daring to "be fat at them!" LOL

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