OK, I'm going to stick my neck out (and probably get it chopped off) by putting a big chunk of the blame for sloppy casualization on today's crop of designers.

Deconstruction, distressing, luxe athletic, and oversized looks can look great in the right hands, but, done badly, just look sloppy. A runway- or celebrity-styled pajama pant gets re-interpreted as "whoa, I can wear my pjs to the store now!". Details get lost when Karl L. uses athletic shoes and sweatpants in his couture collections and the "look" trickles down to the mass market. The need to constantly churn out new collections has led to too many designers choosing novelty and buzz instead of truly innovative design. It's fine to get inspired by "streetwear", but it's not enough to replicate the look in a way that makes me think I could do it myself with a pair of scissors and a glue gun--or put together a similar outfit from the local feed store for a pittance.

One or two sessions of watching Downton Abbey this season makes it very clear that comfortable, unstructured clothing does not equal casual clothing. It's the cleverness of the cuts, the beautiful pleating, and the small, but exquisite details in even the servants' clothing that elevate the clothes. Those 20s designers knew how to create loose-fitting garments which were both comfortable to women used to the restrictive clothing of the Edwardian era--AND utterly elegant.

I try and do better than my 13 year old son.

His criteria for outifts are:
- Not embarrassing
- Comfortable.

He has Zero interest in fashion.....

I keep thinking about an episode of *What Not To Wear,* I think it was. This girl is saying a garment is uncomfortable and Stacey tells her, 'No it's not. You're just not used to wearing clothes that fit.'

I also keep thinking about the Star Trek Unitard. Apart from the psychological discomfort, I imagine it's pretty easy. But a room full of unitards is just not impressive to me, not like a room full of well-cut suits.

And last but not least, the last time I really had two hours to dress was 1987. Someone has to do something about traffic congestion before I can stop throwing things on...

I keep thinking about an episode of *What Not To Wear,* I think it was. This girl is saying a garment is uncomfortable and Stacey tells her, 'No it's not. You're just not used to wearing clothes that fit.'

I relate! People say this to me about stiletto heels all the time. The reality is my feet can't handle the combination of a skinny heel and height along with a usually narrow toe box. I know many women who think nothing of a 4" heel, and are probably quite comfortable. It's relative, right? My husband is comfortable at least 10 degrees colder than I am. My climbing partner has an incredibly high pain threshold, to the point where I have to stop her from doing things (like climbing a month after shoulder surgery). So many things factor into what we find "comfortable" - and that's just physical, not psychological! I will NEVER be mentally comfortable in a floofy pink dress with satin and bows.

My guess is that the teen or college student wearing pj bottoms and Uggs at the bus stop or airport probably isn't directly influenced by runway looks. Indirectly, maybe, but I feel there is a long time lag in there too, and that the retail market selects a handful of things to be ubiquitous, and the rest of the variety is lost.

I wonder if some of it is just the move towards public exposure of what were formerly private moments and spaces. For every carefully posed and photoshopped instagram star there are thousands of young people on snapchat posting to each other from the bedroom in their jammies. It's a huge social media slumber party. We're more and more used to sharing random moods and private moments with strangers.

For older folks my guess is it comes down to how much time do you really have, how many jobs are you working, what health problems are you wrestling with, which clothing can you afford and how well does it fit your body (getting something tailored seems like a 1% thing if we are talking about more than a pants hem -- hence the appeal of stretch). I remember conversations here also about meager stylistic choice and fit precision in large or plus size fashion, which is statistically now the majority of the population in the US as well as several other countries, correct? We all pick our battles.

Belts, oh I have found belts uncomfortable my whole life. Casualization is a different thing. I believe it is different in different parts of the country and world. Is the sari comfortable? I do not know because i have never worn one but they look comfortable to me. When I lived in a small town in northern California in the 1970's I was shocked by how casual everyone dressed. I was always over dressed. I also remember seeing women in fuzzy slippers in the grocery store when i was a kid in Sacramento in the 60's. Here is the history of the corset. WWI ended the corset. I wonder what the young of today will think of the sartorial changes in thirty years from now?

WOW. This thread exploded in my absence. GREAT thoughts here, ladies. Thanks for chiming in.

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, Jules.

Gaylene, as always you make very good points. I am not talking about our psychological state of comfort though. I'm talking about our physical need for comfort in what we wear.

I seem to remember an episode of WNTW where Stacey London was annoyed at someone who had sensitive skin and couldn't wear wool sweaters. Well, I have that problem, and refuse to spend my time clawing at myself because I itch so bad. I just hit rid of a really nice Ralph Lauren sweater because I couldn't even stand to wear it for a minute. I put it on and then took it right off and found something else to wear to work. It was a turtleneck, so there was no way to wear something else underneath it to keep the wool from touching my skin.

I think it is true that we are getting used to prioritizing our personal comfort over dressing for public life in a way that used to be common in previous eras. But I think this a separate issue from the casualization issue. I often choose deliberately less comfortable outfits because they are more casual. Part of the reason I've taken to wearing more skirts and dresses is that they are genuinely more comfortable for my body type. I can wear a silk dress and a blazer or a sweater dress and be much more physically comfortable than in a body hugging t-shirt and skinny jeans, but the former always reads as less casual and sometimes I don't want to be perceived as more formal even if I'd prefer the comfort. That said, the jeans and t-shirt may still be overall preferable because it's easier to launder, etc., but that's a different issue from physical comfort.

I haven't read every comment here, but part of me wonders about the connection between the rise of the average women's clothing size, the rise of obesity in the US (I read an alarming stat the other day saying that there are more obese people now than there are underweight people - worldwide) and the casualization of clothing . i.e. bigger bodies, bigger and looser clothes, and comfort reigns king etc. It's also the era of "me, me, me" - the I'lll do what I want, wear what I want, and to heck with expectations and dress codes".

I agree with Stacey London's comment - and can relate to that myself. I used to wear pencil skirts, fitted pants, fitted blazers, blouses etc ALL THE TIME. Now I put on a pencil skirt and I'm twisting around and aware of my stomach, and pulling at the waistband. Same with high heels. I wore them all the time with nary an issue. Now, I can't even remember how to walk in them properly.

Angie, I don't know that you can separate the physical and psychological aspects of comfortable.

If people are always in the psychological can't step out of the (limiting) comfort zone mentally phase, how are they going to move into a different (likely more challenging) physical comfort zone?

This gets to questions a bit beyond fashion and self image but is very grounded in the original inspirational idea you presented this morning and your subsequent question at the beginning of this thread.

Where are we willing to accept possible discomfort for the sake of change and growth as opposed to where we draw the line at 'I am comfortable here and no farther. This is who I am.' Nasty teeth and all (if I may draw from one of the off topic threads this week.)

I thought about this a bit today. I am willing to take on physical discomfort for exercise and strength or for family support purposes (carpool gives me sciatica) but when I'm working I want to feel professional yet be able to focus and not be distracted by small irritants. It's always a moving target. I'd hate to say that comfort trumps all.

My first reaction was like Suz to distinguish comfort from fussiness. Fussing with your clothes is annoying and not very elegant at that. But from what I have seen and experienced, too much comfort does lead to sloppiness. For me, I need my clothes to make me feel contained - I do not like when I feel too amorphous. (I don't mind oversized clothes that aren't my shape, but they need some sort of shape.) Discomfort no, but I do agree some restriction makes us freer.

I haven't read the responses (I'll definitely have to check back), but I would have to say that a requirement that clothes be super-comfortable would definitely cut back on the style factor. How many women would wear high heels if they were not uncomfortable? I think a great many would. It is because they are stylish. I know that I have sacrificed comfort many times especially with regard to footwear so that I can create a more stylish look.

When I want to look more pulled together, I also tuck my tops, which can be uncomfortable if my jeans are already on the tight side. But I do it anyway. And sometimes I wear jeans that are a little too tight around the hips, because I have a curvy bottom half but need petite sizes, and petite curvy sizes are hard to come by. So I make do with the regular fit and stuff myself in (I'm making it sound worse than it is, but there is definitely a loss of comfort here).

I switch back and forth. I will sometimes enjoy wearing more body-contouring clothing, like skinnies, but after a while of doing that, I do need some fluid fits. On those days, I usually let my inner boho come out and wear a maxi skirt, or an A-line skirt that gives my hips the room they need while maintaining a tailored fit at the waist.

Such an interesting thread! I started off agreeing with others about the fussy factor, but the more I think about it I think I appreciate a little discomfort.

Whenever I wear an outfit that's more tailored, or more accessorized, or fitted layers (all things which are less 'comfortable'), this is when I feel at my most attractive. Perhaps because I have made more of an effort, or because these highlight my best points? So although very fitted trousers, a stretch top over a tailored shirt and a belted jacket aren't comfy, I know I look better so that outweighs it.

That said - my favourite belted look is using a semi-elasticated belt, so that helps.

I am quite fussy about my feet. I do wear those granny figure shaping pants if I am wearing a tight dress and quite structured bras. I can't wait to get them off at the end of the day

I've been thinking about this some more too.

I have high heels that are plenty comfortable even if they don't look it. The trick is finding high heels that are comfortable, and in a world that increasingly puts shoe shopping online only. I just get way weary of ordering / waiting / trying / returning. It's exhausting and I just don't have the time.

Likewise when clothes shopping online, I am apt to gravitate towards loose rather than tailored fits, simply because I have a greater chance that these are going to fit and not need to be returned. A line swing dresses are a godsend because if the length is right, I can very likely make it work. I'm not having to cross my fingers and hope that the waist will hit at the right place, and not be too tight, and all those other fit points in between.

Finding the right clothes that fit and flatter is time consuming. It's much more efficient to spend the day at the mall trying on a zillion items, then it is to order online, wait, try on, and return 80% of it.

I truly think this is a huge unrecognized factor in why we're gravitating towards comfort and casual. Even dressy and work attire is including stretch fabrics now, because they are forgiving of all sorts of body types. I embrace ponte knit pants not just because of their comfort but because they are more apt to fit than a pair of jeans or 3 season wool slacks without any stretch if I order them online.

Of course I could get things tailored... but that just adds to the waiting and time consumed.

I don't know about you, but my time is precious.

I guess I wasn't done.

I think the question is mis-framed. I think you can absolutely have comfort in more formal/ dressy attire. The question is not about comfort. The question is why are we gravitating towards more casual fashions?

There's a place for casual in my closet, but it's for walking around in my immediate urban neighborhood (to get exercise, to hit the post office / grocery store, to run and get my nails done) or to lounge around at home and yes for the beach. It's not for going out to a restaurant or a movie or to travel or to a party or to go to work. Well, okay, I would wear casual on a Sunday to brunch. Sunday is a fine day for dressing down.

I find it interesting that the explosion of shapewear like Spanx, etc., has coincided with the explosion of relaxed-fit clothing. Perhaps we still have the need to feel contained or restricted, even while wearing "comfywear." It's a conundrum, I guess.

This topic calls to mind Tim Gunn's comment, “If you want to dress to feel as though you’ve never gotten out of bed, don’t get out of bed.”

That said, I find most of my work, weekend, and formal clothes quite comfortable even though they have a tailored look. For example, I have a lot of dresses with fabric belts (like self-belting wrap dresses) that create shape without constriction.

Also, I have different thresholds for different activities: in a meeting or at an event, I find high heels, a sharp blazer, etc. to be well worth it, whereas if I'll be at my desk writing for a few hours, I'll slip on flats and a cardigan, or if I'm at home, a comfy nightie.

It's a balance of the power of an external image, which may require slightly less comfortable clothing, vs. the value of internal concentration, which may thrive in more comfortable clothing. Or at least, that's how I feel, but some studies show that suits, labcoats, etc. actually put people in a mindset to perform better on tests, so it's hard to say whether we actually need comfort or, along the lines of Angie's original question, have simply have come to expect it.

I've ready many but not most of the posts here and I wanted to chime in (and acknowledge that others might've already written about this) that the ageing population has definitely influenced the rise of comfortable fashion. eg. few women in the 60s will or can trot about easily in 4" heels.

Also: In Canada, much has been written about the worrisome disappearance of skilled tradespeople: over the last decades, we've stopped producing top-notch plumbers, carpenters and electricians. I'd argue that, at least in Canada, we also have too few really skilled tailors. It sure is easier to buy a "comfy" and sloppy jacket made in China than an expensive, beautifully-crafted piece that only looks right if given correct alterations ensure it fits as it should. In other words, tailored pieces require good fit to be comfortable and look right, and this is becoming less possible with each passing year.

So my new ombré poncho is comfortable and not "traditionally flattering" but isn't PJs either. That's the best of both worlds to me.

Comfort vs fussiness, hummmmmmm..... fussiness makes me stand up straighter. This takes me back to catechism and church which leads to respect. Of self and/or others? Not sure, but quite interesting. So does comfort = rebellion?

Caveat: I've not read all of the replies.

I am totally okay giving up some comfort to look good.

Comfort runs on a spectrum from PJs comfortable to totally uncomfortable. I don't do uncomfortable, but I am willing to put up with a certain amount of restriction. Since I live a double sartorial life (dressed up for my hobby, dressed way, way down for my profession) the amount of time I spend in my less comfy clothing is limited. But in that life I prefer neat, tailored looks - flowy and loose fitting has no place. I would consider some of the dresses I wear, however, quite comfortable. Boden has some really great ones that are slim fitting but that have plenty of give without being body-con. I do the belted blazer look every so often (though not long ones, as I don't own one) and totally dig it.

At home I have to be okay walking dogs or cuddling on the couch in it. And at work it has to be slobber-safe.

Like Angie uncomfortable shoes are never an option. Just no.

I have absolutely nothing against people who choose less comfortable choices in order to achieve a different look, but I'm just not one of them most of the time. Very occasionally I'll put up with discomfort, but mostly for special occasion outfits. From day to day, I want to live my life and let my clothing just be what I wear, once I've decided how I want to look. And there are certain parts of my body that can take discomfort better than others. I don't like wearing belts because I don't like any tightness around my waist, but I'm perfectly willing to wear pants that fit comfortably on my waist but tighter on my legs. I'm good with shoes that pinch a little bit from time to time provided that I'm not on my feet all day. I can deal with slightly itchy sweaters if I can wear a cami underneath so the itch is restricted to my arms. I WILL forgo a coat on a cool day if it detracts from my outfit, but I will not wear anything too hot in the summer. Generally speaking, comfort is a HIGH priority for me because I want my style to be very practical. I will always take the more comfortable option. But I don't judge people who choose differently. To the woman who can walk multiple city blocks in strappy 5" heels and a short bodycon dress, I give props. I really think that it just depends on the person. And different people find different things uncomfortable, too.

I am definitely not going to be uncomfortable in my clothing choices...probably what drew me to Eileen Fisher...but many are taking comfortable to mean "anything goes"...looking at folks wearing slippers and PJs while out and about makes me cringe.

I so agree with a previous post about how fabrics have gotten so cheaply manufactured...again a factor in why I love Eileen Fisher. The fabrics tend to be lovely and substantial.

I have never liked belts, but I like my woven garments to be nicely fitted..in my mind that means flattering but not restrictive. Knitted garments, I like to be just loose enough, without being oversized.

I don't think that folks who prize comfort, but still CARE about their appearance have not gotten too comfortable, but there are too many who have totally given up on looking "well" or even "appropriately" dressed.

Of course I haven't read all of the comments (there are 84 of them!). I will put up with a little discomfort, or fussiness, for the look of the outfit. I love tailored fits, which can sometimes be fussy - but on the other hand, if the garment fits well there usually isn't a lot of fussing to do.

However, with belting a blazer we're getting my mid-section involved - an area I'm very sensitive about. If I have to adjust belts and bulky fabric around that area, I am constantly concerned that it's going to make my protruding belly look like it's ready to give birth to a 15 pound baby.

I have belted button down shirts in the past and have not found it to be too fussy, so I think a blazer in a lightweight fabric might work for belting. Hopefully that "15 pound baby" preggo look won't show up!

I agree with everyone who has said that the fabrics of old were much softer and more comfortable while still looking crisp. I had the most gorgeous fine wool skirt years ago that if you looked at the construction should have been uncomfortable yet was the most comfortable thing I owned. I so miss the fabrics of old...