Another thought about all the outside activities you keep up with:

My college roommate is a physician. When I talked to her about our son having OCD but feeling good about his going to school and/or holding a job, she said those are the two things she looks for: is the person going to school and/or keeping a job?

It's good, in other words, to live in the gray areas. Some problems, maybe, but a lot of functioning at the same time. It's good Enough for getting on with life and nobody has to be 100% anything to be happy. And maybe lots easier to be happy when people quit trying to hold themselves to those standards. Breathing room.

Natalie,

Good to hear you two are continuing to talk this through, and I'd have to agree that sometimes people use strong words to get our attention, so maybe "addict" was just an over-the-top way of making a point?

I do not see fashion, shopping, participating in YLF as an addiction. I see it more as a hobby, or a creative passion.

Would your husband feel the same way if you were learning photography and participating in a forum discussing how to get a particular shot, how to use Photoshop, what lighting works with what and so on? What if it was cooking? If you were way into coming up with fabulous new recipes and meals? Painting? Posting pictures of your latest creation?

I see being interested in fashion and YLF as a creative endeavour. Artistic and fun.

When you take the time to come up with an outfit, how is that different than what an interior decorator does when he or she comes up with a fresh new colour scheme for a room?

A photographer gets up at 5 in the morning to get just the right light. Buys all kinds of equipment. Spends hours tweaking.

In the meantime, it seems like there is something that makes your husband feel bad about this - and I'm not sure what exactly it is. He was having trouble with it even before you agreed to stop shopping and then bought something else. That adds another complication to the whole thing. But...isn't it true that he was bothered by this long before the most recent incident?

Is it just because it's fashion and some people tend to view fashion as kind of frivolous? Or is it because maybe he feels he's not getting enough of your time and attention?

I'm trying my darndest to imagine someone telling their loved one to shut down their passion for photography or give up painting. I can see a situation where a person might ask their loved one to slow down spending so much money on photography equipment after a period of buying a lot of gear. That said, I cannot imagine asking someone to give up something that makes them happy, something that creates beauty and joy in their life.

I really do see fashion and YLF as a creative endeavour.

Hmm...

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to ask if you've ever gotten way 'into' something before your interest in fashion, and if so - was your husband supportive? If that's the case, then his dislike might just be because some people think fashion is frivolous. I think this will be easier to work out. Liken it to photography, interior decorating, painting etc.

If not, then perhaps the issue is that you're really interested in something and it is taking up a lot of your time and emotional energy. Maybe he's just not used to that yet?

What do you think of this idea? What would happen if you got really interested in something else, and you were participating on a blog/forum, and posting pictures of ...oh, I dunno, fancy meals you came up with or getting feedback on some beautiful photographs you'd taken? If you became "obsessed" with interior decorating? What if it was gardening and you were buying all kinds of fancy plants, trees, shrubs, not to mention all the tools? Posting pictures on a forum/blog of your grand plans for the backyard, all mapped out? Showing off the japanese maple tree on your front porch?

Don't laugh - I'm just asking because I'm wondering if it's simply that fashion is seen as frivilous sometimes, or if it's more to do with the amount of time and energy you're spending. Or if there's some fear around the idea that you don't share every single hobby/interest.

I really hope you can get to the bottom of it. Keep talking and this will get resolved - I'm sure of it.

Hi Vix! to clarify: the point i was trying to make was that, in my experience when you start grouping such extremes of behaviour and situations all together under one word that word starts to lose any meaning or usefulness. I'm sure other people have had different experiences and come to different understandings. I have, unfortunately, had experience with family and friends who have struggled with addiction. Some lost that struggle, others have been high functioning for decades.

I do agree that the term 'addiction' is pretty fraught. And since people apply it so widely i think that getting a working definition in place is a great idea for any people discussing it. That's what i was trying to get at in my example.

Bottom line, Mrs. and Mr. goldenpig are the ones in their marriage and it's down to the two of them to decide how they want to relate and communicate between themselves. I was just offering my own opinion in terms of my own experience in response to the topic.

To me, it sounds more like 'not being perfect, because life is exciting and being married is hard' than addiction. But then, i'm just me and there's a lot i don't know! Hope this makes my view a little more clear, steph

Hi Natalie... Looks like just about everything has been said here. I thought about this last night and this morning, knowing the wise ladies of YLF would have chimed in before me...

The word addiction (as has been pointed out) can be used casually these days, much like the word obsessed, rather than in its clinical/pathological sense. And I think that may be what your husband means, and in that sense, it can apply to anything. I know people who are addicted to Facebook and Twitter to the point where I feel it does interfere where their lives - it's like they create moments just to be able to tweet them, instead of actually living.

And there is such a thing as a shopping addiction, almost exclusively a women's issue. After all, shopping gives the same adrenalin rush, followed by the need to have more, along with the behavior patterns that are hard to break. I know for me thrift shopping became an obsession for a while - it deeply satisfied some need to hunt and gather at a relatively low price for the entertainment value.

I come from a family with addictive personalities. Lying about the activity and hiding the consequences (loss of money in the case of gambling, purchased goods in the case of shopping) are two of the biggest signs that a problem may be developing. And to be honest, the argument that "I'm hiding it because you make me feel bad about it" can be part of the issue too. I'm not at all siding with your husband here. It's possible he is making a value judgment based on what he thinks of fashion in general (the "frivolous, silly, vain" societal perception of which everyone has mentioned). At the same time, I do think there are genuine earmarks of concern that you and he need to work out.

I COMPLETELY relate to the escape that YLF provides and the fun that comes of fashion as a hobby. You're a mom, a wife, and a professional - all demanding roles that need some release. Only you can really know if it's crossed the line into damaging your personal life and relationships. You are so brave to come here and open up to the forum. Perhaps you could consider sharing your initial post with your husband as well? He needs to know that you're not casting him as the villain in this little drama.

I TOTALLY agree with Jonesy that couples counseling could really help you sort through this, especially if you have been going around in circles. You need someone professional to break that cycle of miscommunication and help you set appropriate boundaries.

Huge hugs to you and I hope for all the best for you both!

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said. I'm happy to hear that you two are talking and attempting to work this out. That is the most important thing right now. My DH had a similar reaction to the amount of time I was spending on YLF and the energy that was being directed towards clothing etc. For what it's worth, he felt the same way when I became interested in decorating and gardening, too. I'm a motivated learner and can quickly become absorbed in wanting to know everything about something I find interesting.

From talking to DH I learned that he was worried my priorities had become out of whack. In his eyes whatever gets the most of my time and energy is what is most important to me. YLF wasn't really getting that much of my time, but it sure looked that way to him. So I took his concerns to heart and made some changes. I limited my daily YLF time to one hour split into thirty minutes in the morning and thirty minutes in the evening. I even used a timer to make sure I stayed within those limits. I knew I needed at least ten minutes to read, reflect on, and comment on Angie's blog in the morning. The other twenty minutes were for reading and responding to members' threads. The thirty minutes in the evening allowed me to post WIW threads and do some more reading and responding.

Keep talking to your DH and trying to achieve that balance that will make everyone happy. Best of luck to you!

Very thoughtful thread.
My husband is a "dive-in" person, like I believe GP is. Four years ago he decided to make beer. OK, I shrugged. He bought his first equipment, made beer, checked out beer books from the library, made more beer, bought better equipment, bought more specialized books, made more beer. He spent hours on the beer forum. He talked about beer all the time. All The Time.
If he had been spending our joint money on beer equipment, and if he wasn't super thrifty, we would have had some serious talks about the cost of his hobby. People (95% men) spend crazy $ amounts on brewing set-ups.
But now, he is in the basement brewery 3 or 4 nights a month, we have amazing beer on tap, he occasionally checks the beer forum for new recipes, and he has integrated the hobby into his life in a thoughtful way.
He dove in head first and he loves learning - he surrounded himself with his hobby until he felt like he mastered it, and now he spends a very reasonable amount of time on it.
It was weird and uncomfortable for me when he was so consumed by something I just (sorry DH) don't care much about. And I am a toe-dipper, not a dive-inner, so I didn't understand the process and I was concerned he'd never "come back" from beer world, and afraid it was a permanent change. He's back.
So I guess in my perspective, you've thrown yourself into this new passion and he's feeling like I was - confused by the changes, concerned about the expense, and tired of hearing about your new love.
Please deal with the money & shopping addiction questions, but you know you can be passionate about fashion on a very small budget. You are in a family, so you need to find the right time/money balance for your new passion.
I also agree with the counseling suggestion - my mother always said two toddlers was the hardest period in their marriage, so anything to help you through this time in your lives is a good idea.

GP, I third/fourth the notion of couples therapy. Different people communicate in different ways, and something that hurts you deeply may not have been meant that way by him at all. A trained person can help you communicate in more productive and thoughtful ways. Couples therapy is not an admission of failure. It's a way to learn how to communicate. Think of it as hiring a personal trainer for your relationship.

FWIW, I do not think seeking positive reinforcement, interesting ideas, or constructive criticism from other women on dressing is a vain behavior.

And BTW I am a Virgo, y'all.

Hi IK! "And BTW I am a Virgo, y'all."

heehee! considering Virgos have been mentioned thus far solely by ladies who chose to marry them.....

i think our extraordinarily positive feelings towards those born under this sign should be obvious steph

Natalie, you've received some very wise counsel here.

Obviously your 'addiction' to YLF cannot compare to the devastation and danger of a drug addiction. You are upfront here and say your participation has not affected your work or your motherhood responsibilities - huge priorities. That is important. It HAS affected your marriage, though, so I agree this conflict shouldn't escalate, and won't be disappearing on its own. It's great you're talking about it, being open. Perhaps marriage counselling is a good idea. It's not about CHANGING the other person - but about understanding each other's psyche and motivations more deeply so you can have a happier partnership. I really believe a good marriage helps us grow into better people. (I'm on my life partnership #2, so I've learned from past mistakes!)

Natalie, one more thing - do you have IRL friends who know both you and DH who could give you some level-headed input or perspective? Sometimes I will fly into a temper at something my DH says but be able to handle the same feedback when it comes from my friends... you know how that goes!

Everyone has offered thoughtful suggestions and I know that many of us have husbands who don't "get" why YLF is important to us. I know mine thinks it is kind of frivolous. I have only have one thing to add. I agree with Jonesy and others that counseling may be a good idea. The reason I believe this is because regardless of whether you have a dependency on YLF or not, you are going to at times continue to have major disagreements with your spouse. A counselor can help you learn to talk with each other in a safe and mature way. This is not easy to do without outside help. You should be able to discuss problems without resorting to hiding things from him. It makes it seem that he is in a parental role to you and I am sure that neither of you want that. Once you can communicate openly and honestly you can resolve this! Believe me, there will always be other situations that require this skill.

Team Couples Therapy here, too.

The only other thing I have to add is that the whole concept of you being accountable to him for your shopping and YLF activities, in the absence of any indication that he's similarly accountable to you for, for example, his hobby activities, makes my toes curl. I feel rather strongly that it's not his place to approve or disapprove of your activities. If he wants to spend more time with you, that's fine. He is certainly free to say, "Hey, Natalie! Come away from that computer so we can take a walk!" And you can then say "Yes" or "Not right now, but I'll be ready in 15 minutes!" And as for the shopping and the money, as long as the 401(K)s and the college funds are being funded and no debt is being incurred, honestly I don't think it's up to him to police your spending.

I don't have a hubby--- that said, I'm not exactly wet behind the ears in that area either.

I came to YLF for the style advice and inspiration and stayed for the stress-relief, the creative outlet, the introspection, and the community.

I'm a lot younger than a lot of the women here, but I count that as a bonus because I cherish all the advice on life and fashion I get here from women with more experience than me. I love my family and friends IRL and I've learned from watching them in their lives, but their advice on being a young professional adult female, fashion/style, and dating as an adult beyond college is pretty much non-existent.

I'm on a tight budget and haven't had an issue with over-spending or over-shopping since coming here. If I had more disposable income I would shop more, no doubt . . . I'd also travel more. . . and have more expensive hobbies . . . and go out to eat more . . and not feel bad about it.

I generally spend 10 minutes here and there between chores or tasks . . . YLF is my break time. Also, I spend a lot of time on YLF during my non-productive time when I am tired from a long day/not feeling well, when I need to relax or unwind, and when the people that are important to me have their own things going on.

I can "waste" time here. That much is true. That said, I am not putting YLF before people in my life or things I have to get done. I tend to spend an excessive amount of time here when I am feeling down, which is nothing new for me. People IRL always have commented on my ability to stay upbeat. That is how I do it--- when there are negative things going on in most aspects of my life I carve out a little time here and there to spend time on something I can look forward to. In the past I read a lot of free online fiction, cheap dime store type novels, gone for a run, or spent time writing goofy stories. In a lot of ways YLF is more fulfilling than those things because of the "community" feel, being able to help others on occasion, and the self-confidence boost and positive chance for introspection.

If I were you I would try to explain how YLF and video games aren't the same thing. He may or may not get it or listen. I personally would be willing to moderate my fashion/style/YLF time, but I wouldn't be willing to cut it down extremely or stop. Addicts are people that cannot handle moderation. I would moderate myself and see if he still complains/that is the issue. Be very open an honest with your participation and purchasing (the other issue). I think that would be the best way to figure out what is really going on beyond trying to communicate.

He seems to think your behavior is attention-seeking . . . is it possible you aren't feeling appreciated for who you are as a beautiful intelligent woman, not just as a wife and mother and breadwinner? If so, you need to tell him you need that from him. If you just miss having female friends that don't focus solely on your value as a mother, YLF is probably one of the least-invasive ways to have "friends" that care about how creative, clever, resourceful, fun, and stylish you are!

Personally, I'd do a 2-3 month SYC (I can't remember if you had an agreement with hubs about it being 3 months or if that was just your idea) and start immediately.

I would look at how much time your husband has in "me time" each day/week versus how much you have. 15 minutes doesn't sound like much unless you are also spending a lot of time watching TV, playing in the closet, on another hobby, out with female friends without kids, ect. My idea of moderation would probably be 30 minutes to an hour of YLF and closet play based on how much time the hubs spends watching TV, playing video games, or on his hobbies/online about his hobbies. Putting together an outfit and getting dressed in the morning doesn't count (and think about how much time you save compared to many many women because you don't do high maintenance hair or a lot of makeup-- putting things in perspective helps!). I'd also look into finding one other thing you do enjoy that is about you and not about kids, even if that is something that you only do once a week or a couple of times a month, like a "date" with a girlfriend or two, a class, ect.

I can't imagine that your husband doesn't spend at least 30 minutes of time a day doing something relaxing that he enjoys that isn't actively contributing to your relationship, family, household, children, his health, ect. I also suspect that you don't complain or say hurtful things about what he enjoys doing with that time, even though it probably isn't your cup of tea (video games?). If he has more time than those 30 minutes, so should you. If he is not ok with you having that time to spend how you want (within reason) and you are maintaining openness and honestly, he is being unreasonable. Marriage is all about compromise, but not having time for yourself, or unequal/unfair rules, rights, and expectations for partners breeds resentment and is unhealthy for each of you, your marriage, and for the example you two will be setting your children when they become old enough to notice these things. I couldn't imagine you wanting your daughter to grow up thinking that what she was interested in was somehow not ok because a man didn't value it, or that it was alright for her not to have time to spend on herself just because she was the mommy and not the daddy . . . or your son thinking similar things about his place in the family or his future wife or girlfriend.

I'm glad you said what you did, MaryK. And I agree.

I am with Maryk too. But none off us can judge your marriage. Good luck.

Great point, jayne.

Natalie, I hope I didn't come across as judging you or your marriage or your DH. I can see my wording wasn't very diplomatic. Let's just say that was MY reaction to the situation you described, unencumbered by any actual, you know, knowledge of the actual facts!

Well...I have avoided responding to this thread all day Natalie in the fear that I would say something inappropriate or unknowingly offensive. No one lives in your shoes and your marriage so what any of us offers here is based upon our own experiences and what you have relayed. I would also never offer any advice unless asked to which I believe you have by posting this thread.

I was curious to know a man's point of view on this issue since all responses you have received are from women on this forum who also love to shop and be stylish so I emailed my husband and portrayed your situation in very vague and extremely anonymous terms and outright asked him if he felt the same way in terms of time with YLF, vanity, etc. and this is his reply word for word.

"Nope. I have no issues with it at all.

Anything we do for ourselves can be called vain -- my photography, for instance – but the fact is that we all seek stimulation somewhere. It’s unrealistic to expect that your spouse is always going to agree with you, or include you in their activities. I’m a bit of a libertarian when it comes to this topic and think that, even in a relationship, people are individuals. And as individuals, they should give each other some room to pursue whatever interests them. Sounds as though this gentleman may be insecure and a wee bit controlling. It reminds me of what Princess Leia said in the first Star Wars movie: “The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.” Hopefully she will not grow to resent his resentment. And he needs to find a hobby."

Take that for what it's worth Natalia - it's only my hubby's perspective but I thought another YLF widower's comments may be particularly telling.

Sending hugs.

Have you been having withdrawal symptoms? :p Or has this been getting in the way of your daily life? I know tons of docs who love to shop and look good - I don't think it is a problem

Then again; I do not have a significant other (really); so I am free to spend my moneys any way I want

I hope that the "recess" you are taking from YLF and shopping will not leave you FEELING less fabulous

On a more superficial level, I've been attempting to include or educate my hubby as I've learned more about fashion & style these past few months. If I read something that summarizes spring trends I'll forward it to him. He reads it & has actually noticed examples when we've been out in public together. I also sent him the article from the weekly wrap up a few weeks ago written by a man who compared men's love of sports to fashion for women. I think that one resonated with him. In my case my fear is him feeling left out. And the clothing I buy is paid for by my personal discretionary savings which simplifies everything tremendously of course. (And he can spend his $ any way he wishes with no comments from me.)

Just wanted to add that I kind of suspect that my husband thinks 'fashion' is a bit frivolous (he hasn't said so...just me guessing/assuming) but he's still very encouraging about the whole thing.

Likewise, I do not quite get the appeal when it comes to the latest and greatest electronic gadget or some new software. I'm not all that interested in timer systems that water the plants at just the right time of day for each 'zone.' I don't get all excited because of some new technology out there. He manages to master the latest and greatest thing even before it has launched, it seems. We're quite different this way - with me preferring real stationery, fountain pens and fresh food made from scratch. He doesn't quite 'get' why I'd spend money on a fancy Microplane grater just because I want nicely grated fresh lime rind. The thing is? He doesn't mind and I don't mind. In a weird way, we sort of complement each other.

The only reason I posted again is just to say that it really is okay (and beneficial) to have some interests of your own.

This is what makes life interesting and fun. It's not necessary to be two peas in a pod, all the time, about everything. This just isn't realistic. Probably not all that healthy either.

If anything - the fact that you have an interest in something that he's not all that interested in is a good thing! How else are you two going to continue to find each other a little bit mysterious and intriguing?

Have you two always been super close? Like two peas in a pod? Maybe this is why the new interest in fashion and YLF is causing friction? Is it the first time you've gone off and developed an interest in something that he's not all that that keen on?

I guess I just wanted to say that it can be fun, and *funny* when couples have different interests. For instance, my Mom got way into decorating her house - she'd change up the furniture just because she was "bored" with it. My stepdad would make jokes ....saying he didn't always know what he was going to get when he walked into the room. Meanwhile, my aunt somehow got into some sort of crafty thing and my uncle was battling glitter all over the place, and it was *hilarious* - the way he told us stories about finding glitter in the cutlery drawer and so on. There was even a story about having a family dinner at his house and he found gold glitter on the roast...not kidding about this!

My own 'funny' is about waking up. It's dark o'clock...I pad downstairs to make some coffee and the light switches on automatically. Then there's this whirring sound in the background...it was an automatic cat litter box in the mudroom. I go to make the coffee, but I can't because it's already on some sort of automatic timer. I'm half expecting to go take a shower and find a dispenser that dispenses just the right amount of shampoo - it's that bad. I walk into a room, and a light goes on. The plants and flowers are watered automatically - all computerized and timed. It's like the house is a living, breathing ...thing. Every thing is automated. All of my voice mails are automatically sent via e-mail too. With a transcript. The coffee grinds itself. I'm sitting there watching a movie - something that the TV thought I'd like, based on things I'd liked in the past....but ....the living room lamp shuts itself off because it's 10pm.

He has to contend with me insisting on the 'good' tomatoes, and being stupidly fussy about a grater, of all things. But the thing is? It's fun and funny for us. There is a whole lot of joy in embracing our loved one's quirks, likes and interests. My stepdad will 'complain' about the fact that he never knows when he'll come home to all-new living room furniture. I might make jokes about my every thought/idea being anticipated and automated, and my uncle tells tales of my aunt somehow managing to get glitter all over the house. Having to go run errands with gold glitter stuck to his face.

Not sure if this helps, but I just wanted to say that it's a really good thing to have your own quirks, your own interests - and how this can be a source of laughter and joy - especially if your partner isn't quite as 'into' said interest as you are. Fast forward 20+ years from now ...imagine your husband telling his young adult daughter about the time he had to put up with Kate Spade.

Or like the time my husband told my family about what it was like coming home from the grocery store with cilantro instead of Italian flat-leaf parsley. How he didn't know the difference and how cilantro and flat-leaf parsley look quite similar. That he didn't know he was expected to smell them if he couldn't tell which was which. The embarrassment. Trying to get it 'just right' for his wife. At the cash...with a clump of something green that looked sort of right...how the cashier didn't even know what it was or what the code for it was. Shrugging his shoulders and hoping like heck it was the right thing.

Do you see that there can be joy in all of this? Fun and laughter?

To me, this is one of the very best things about being married. Being yourself, and having a person love you through all of your quirks, obsessions, interests and foibles.

I hope that you two can see the humour and joy in this stuff. It's a good thing that you don't always see eye-to-eye on absolutely everything.

Hang in there, and here's hoping you two get it all sorted.

Natalie, I don't really have anything to add because this thread is filled to the brim with so much wisdom already. Just wanted to send hugs and support. I'm glad you feel comfortable enough to share this on the forum.

VelvetyChocolate, I LOVE your post! What a great message. You are a woman after my own heart.

Crazy, perfectionist Virgo checking in! We don't make it easy, do we?

GP, I'm sorry this is a difficult time for you and glad you have an understanding outlet here. This is a delicate balance. Communication and honesty would seem to be paramount. As for advice, I offer this. Be honest with yourself first. What is in your heart? If you think you were going overboard, scale back. If not, agreeing to something that does not feel good to you is asking for trouble. It is possible that a larger money discussion/budget is part of the answer. If you are both working within the boundaries of an agreed-on budget, then the focus is no longer just on fashion. The spending choices are for each of you to make.

Speaking as a working mom, I know it's not easy. We all need to find outlets, creative and otherwise, and YLF is one of mine. It would be painful if my husband did not support me in my interests and passions or if it became a point of contention.

Thanks Ana

Oh Natalie, I feel for you being in this situation.
First, I'd like to applaud you for your honesty and candidness in asking these questions and trying to understand the situation. I hope your DH sees the same thing - that you are trying to make up for any mistrust he might still feel and move on without hurting the relationship.

Second, in defense of your DH, his language in using addiction terms to describe your YLF/wardrobe time and efforts is most likely just an emotional outburst that he fell into because he was upset/jealous/insecure and trying too hard to prove his point. As a medical professional, my assumption (I could be wrong - you would know that though) is that DH has SOME training in recognizing real addiction. If he does not or it was superficial, he may just be falling into the cultural traps that so many do in talking about addiction. I have unfortunate life experience with seeing addiction up close in those near and dear to me and it is certainly far beyond the level you have described.

Third. let me further play devils' advocate (you may hate me forever but you wanted advice so here goes): you have posted about quite a few unworn items, hiding or misrepresenting some purchases (been there - it can cause some trust issues) and building a new wardrobe so quickly that you already don't love some early YLF pieces. How does this look from his perspective? Was it too much, too fast? Those are a few signs of problems in addicts so maybe he knows that and is judging based on that context, limited as it may be.

Ok, time to rebuild! You may need counseling but maybe just a long night away with kids at a sitter/family member - how long has it been since you did that? It is so hard with a working couple with little kids to have balance. And it does not get easier so please work on this now. You also mentioned having a third baby and his hesitance. You may just need true heart to heart time?

I send you vibes and hugs and best wishes as you work on this - I am sure you will look fabulous now that your creativity has been unleashed. Balance in everything is key - I realize that as I get older.

Wow, I am overwhelmed with all the kind thoughts and responses! I really appreciate how all of you took time to weigh in and give me a virtual hug and wise advice! That is one of the reasons I love YLF so much! It's going to take me a lot longer than 15 min to digest all the wisdom in this thread and post my response, but I'll make an exception for such a moving show of support and because it's really important to me to figure this out so I can get back on track with DH!

First off, as I said earlier, I don't think hubby is trying to control me. Someone mentioned that maybe he is jealous of the improvement in my looks or might be worried that I'm doing it to attract other men. So not the case--not even on our radar! He's not worried about me jumping ship. I think he's just concerned because I have been acting really differently that I used to--I never threw myself into a hobby with so much intensity before, or at least something that we hadn't done together! We were plenty intense with our pre-kids hobbies but that was something shared.

Pre-kids we were TOTALLY into kayaking and scuba diving together. We joined a local sea kayaking group, learned to do kayak rescues and eskimo rolls, even bought our own sea kayaks (which are now just gathering dust in our garage unfortunately). We took kayak camping trips and once went kayaking under the Golden Gate bridge (on a group tour, of course--that can be pretty dangerous to do solo with all the currents). We took a trip to BC and stayed on a mothership boat and kayaked the straits of Vancouver Island, simply amazing and beautiful. Since DD, we've gone kayaking exactly once, and that was because I made us go on our anniversary last year. I told him, "Look, either we use the kayaks or we sell them" and he wasn't willing to part with them!

For diving we went all out too. We did all the advanced and rescue classes to become certified Master Scuba Divers. We used to dive the kelp forests in Monterey and Catalina, and because the water is cold you have to wear thick wetsuits and lots of lead (we never did drysuit certification). We would dive cenotes in Mexico and caverns in Florida and once we dove a place called Devil's Throat in Cozumel which is an advanced dive through a narrow tunnel that starts at 80 ft underwater and into a cave that is 120-130 feet underwater. It's at the limits of recreational no-deco diving and can be dangerous and I don't think we'd do that again now that we have kids! We used to go on liveaboard vacations where we would stay on a boat and dive 4-5 times a day for a whole week, to places like the British Virgin Islands, Sea of Cortez, and the Galapagos. After that incredible dive trip in the Galapagos where we were diving with whale sharks and schools of hammerhead sharks, DH said, "Let's go again next year!" and I said, "Well not yet, let's just see what happens." And the next month I became pregnant with our daughter, and everything changed and there went our hobbies. DH misses the adventurous life we used to have together as a couple. I do too, but maybe just not quite as much as he does since I've thrown myself into my role as a parent (he has also and participates in parenting fully, but maybe a little more begrudging of the loss of self/coupledom). And the kayaking and diving were his ideas that I went along with and got into because of him, so he misses them a lot more than I do. And did I mention that we were a couple for 15 years before we had kids? So the change in lifestyle and our relationship was quite a shock to say the least!

We used to be active on a scuba diving board forum (kind of like YLF for diving) and totally into researching diving gear, destinations, etc. DH is still active on the scuba diving board, but I haven't posted there in years. We still dive once in a while when we go to Hawaii but it's like one or two dives in a vacation, not the whole focus of the vacation anymore since we have kids. Last summer he and I went on a liveaboard vacation by ourselves for the first time in six years--my mom came to watch the kids, we had never been away from them for even one night since DD was born (except the night that I was in the hospital having DS)--we spent a week on a boat together which was great for us as a couple and DH was so excited, but I really missed the kids (no phone or internet/Skype for the whole week). And so this year I told DH he could go on another dive boat trip, but he is going by himself this summer and I am going to stay with the kids.

After having kids I kind of moved away from the diving board and joined a mommy board, and started researching strollers, car seats, baby gear, etc. I admit, I do have a sort of perfectionist/obsessive bent and at one point I had like 10 different strollers (singles and doubles) until I figured out what worked best, and sold most of them (now we just have one single and one double). Same as I do with clothes--I'll try on 50 pairs of jeans to find the perfect one. And I used to put all my shopping efforts toward the kids--they were so cute and well dressed and I was a schlump in my super old clothes and still wearing maternity even though I was back to my prepreg weight. Until I started getting interested in fashion and now it was my turn to do something just for myself! Which is why it's been so fun for me to rediscover myself and my creativity. I am horrible at art--I draw worse than a preschooler. I used to play piano as a child but it was always forced on me. I used to write poetry when I had a lot of teen angst, but nowadays life is much more mundane. I'm just not that great at visual arts or music or creative writing or anything so that's why I've latched onto this fashion thing because I found out I'm pretty good at this and having a lot of fun with it!

Anyways, on this mommy board I got lots of support and learned so much from the other moms. They talk about all kinds of stuff, life, relationships, etc. It's like having a group of friends that you get to know and hang out with, but just online. Just like YLF! I have met a couple of the moms on that board and they're always really nice. But I don't think DH would consider his fellow scuba forum members his "friends". When I mentioned I wanted to go meet someone from my online forums DH was saying (sort of jokingly) "But you don't even know them! You want to go meet some random person you met online? How do you know they're not a serial killer?"

I think he resents the fashion because while he wants me to look and feel good, he thinks it's taking too much away from couple time (though he plays video games and surfs the web and does his scuba board and looks up funny joke and picture sites etc etc, so he spends as much time plugged in as I do). Also he's a very private person and doesn't like the public nature of me posting pictures on the internet...he's kind of paranoid that somehow it will be used against me. Like he's worried if my patients find out that I'm posting on a fashion board, that they'll think I'm shallow and think less of me. I disagree, I don't think anyone would care, or if anything they would think it's cool that I have a fashion blog. He always teases me for posing and posting pictures of myself, he can't understand why anyone would post pics of their rear ends on the internet...just fodder for blackmail! Plus he thinks it's totally frivolous, shallow and vain.

As for couples therapy, thanks for the rec and I think it would be a good idea too, but I've suggested it several times before and he refuses. I think he would rather die or get divorced than go through the "embarrassment and humiliation" of seeking help from a therapist (he kind of looks down on them unfortunately). He's very introspective and analytical and insightful and has a good understanding of what makes people tick and his own feelings and why he acts the way he does. So he feels that he doesn't need someone else who he considers less smart than him to tell him what the issues are, because he already knows. He's a very private and proud person and would not feel comfortable sharing intimate details of problems with others, whether friends or therapist or whoever (especially not the internet--he'd die if he knew I was posting here, but I can't talk to anyone in real life, especially anyone that knows him! So I feel like I NEED to talk to you all!). And he doesn't want someone else telling him what to do. He is very into being in control of oneself (though he has his own struggles with his weight), which is why it concerns him so much that I'm seemingly "out of control" with my fashion "addiction". I would consider going myself to see a therapist (and I actually did one time on my own a long time ago without his knowledge), but I think it would just be another thing I'd have to hide from him, or if I told him I was going myself, he would consider it a huge waste of money and be angry that I'm "talking smack" about him with others, so I don't think it's worth it because I don't want to antagonize him further. He does want our relationship to improve, he just doesn't want to seek help from outsiders (and plus he thinks he hasn't done anything wrong and I'm the one that betrayed him so I have to do the changing!). So I think the best solution is for us to just keep talking openly with each other and working on our relationship ourselves. Someone asked what our love languages are--we did this quiz before and I think mine were acts of service and words of affirmation, and his were quality time and physical touch. I think those are pretty accurate, actually, and something I have to work on because I haven't had time for a whole lot of that with our busy lives and all of our responsibilities. We do try to have date nights when we can though.

BTW he was an Eagle Scout which I think says a lot about his personality--high achieving, loyal, trustworthy, moral. Loyal to a fault and would do absolutely anything for a friend or family, but if you let him down or cross him, he can hold a grudge for a long time. He has high expectations of himself and others, and can be easily disappointed or take things personally if others don't measure up to his high standards. He has a very black and white view of the world, even though he is perceptive enough to see all the shades of gray. He is very observant and perceptive and tends to brood at times. When we fight, he is so rational and eloquent--he can see (and argue) both sides, but knows he is in the right. He never gets hotheaded during an argument. He would have been a PERFECT courtroom lawyer! Whereas I'm more emotional and tend to blab about how I feel and how my feelings make me react a certain way, and how "I feel you should do x or y for me", which doesn't carry as much weight with him. And of course if I get really upset I just blow up and cry and then it's just over, I can't make any effective arguments at that point and he's telling me to calm down and stop acting so hysterical. Kind of comical now that I'm describing it, but that's pretty much our pattern! Someone asked what our signs are, I'm a Cancer (and an Ox) and he's a Scorpio (and a Rat). Does that mean anything?
ETA: OMG. I just looked up Scorpio for DH:
http://www.starsigntraits.com/scorpio-personality
and Cancer for me:
http://www.starsigntraits.com/cancer-personality
and these describe us almost to a T (especially him)! Now I'm kinda freaked out!

Oh, and since he's an only child, he's used to a LOT of attention, and now that we've got two kids who demand most of my attention, he's not getting as much and he's kinda sad about it! Especially when my passion for fashion sucks even more time away from him!

As for me, I'm hardworking and a perfectionist at times, but other times am rather laid back and a procrastinator. I tend to see things in more relative terms and give people the benefit of the doubt. Like if we invite people over and they don't reciprocate or call us to do things with them, DH will say they don't like us and react negatively, whereas I'll just shrug and say they're probably just busy and invite them over again another time. Probably because I can be scatterbrained myself at times and know that I can forget to do things when I get busy. Sometimes he'll ask me to do something and I'll forget and he has to remind me, or he says he told me something and I don't remember him ever saying that, or maybe I just didn't hear him (I lost some hearing in one ear because of the diving). Also, my big family with me and four younger sibs (which is very boisterous and chaotic compared to DH's small family--he's an only child) and I tend to either make plans at the last minute or change plans frequently as the situation changes, which bugs the crap out of DH. Also I'm always late and packing at the last minute when we go on trips which totally stresses him out--several times we have made it onto the plane with minutes to spare and DH is having a coronary! And I tend to be more of an "ends justify the means" type of person than DH and look at intent behind the actions rather than the actions themselves, whereas DH is very "by the books" and "a promise is a promise no matter what", which is probably why I got in trouble by "bending the rules" and breaking my no-shopping promise (which I now kinda regret making!) So I guess you could say he's a sensitive demanding absolutist and I'm a forgetful lazy relativist! Ha!

Another thing about our personalities, he's a pessimist and I'm an optimist. So I tend to think that our lives are just great, we're so lucky to have everything we do, and everything is going to be OK, while he's always stressed about our lives and financial situation (even though I think we're doing fine), worried about making mistakes at work or getting sued, and always worried that something bad is going to happen. So maybe that explains why he's stressed about my shopping and my new hobby...he's worried that it means I've changed into a completely different person and it will mean complete financial ruin for us? (Even though yes MaryK, we are fully funding our 401K/pensions and 529's and all of that!)

Finally (sorry this is getting so long), I do want to reassure MaryK and others that he doesn't think I'm the only one who should be accountable. He always tells me what he's going to buy for his camera and dive hobbies (everyone is always remarking at what a huge camera lens he has!), the difference is I don't tell him no or get upset when he wants to buy something. I'm always like, "Sure, whatever makes you happy." (And yes VC, he is totally the same with the electronic/camera equipment--always obsessing about the latest and greatest version with all the newest features that I don't think make that much of a difference). He does want me to have a hobby and do nice things for myself. I think he just wishes it would be something that is seen as a little less "frivolous" and wouldn't be so all-consuming. And he was really hurt by my breaking promises and hiding things from him which I know was wrong and I'm not trying to justify it, and I'm not planning on repeating my mistakes. He had every right to be mad, but hopefully he will forgive and trust me again in the future. (I think Steph was right about maybe he was worried that this meant I had changed forever into a deceptive untrustworthy liar, so that's why he called me an addict!) I think he may never share my love of fashion (though he does like nice clothes and has a great eye--he can always pick out the most expensive thing), but I think as long as he feels I'm not out of control hopefully he can live with it.

So there you have it, in a nutshell...what makes Mr. and Mrs. GP tick, my own 5 cent psychoanalysis! Sort of like the "home study" version of therapy! Looking at this, you would think we are polar opposites with such different interests, and how can we ever make it work? (But I think VC's post about having separate interests was hilarious!) However, I think things will eventually be OK between us (again maybe my own eternal optimism!), we just need to reconnect more and keep talking things through. I don't want to give up fashion and YLF altogether and I don't think he's asking me to. It's not like he wants me to have no interests or hobbies of my own. He just thinks it's a very strange one and it makes him uncomfortable. I just have to find the right balance between making me happy, him happy and keeping our family happy, which is what I'm trying to do! Thanks everyone for your wonderful words of support and for letting me open up and share so much with you! I don't have anyone else I can talk to about this IRL so it's really helpful for me to write it all out to get some mental clarity and see what I need to do to improve things!

I hope this doesn't hurt your feelings, but my first reaction as you have been relating this issue over the past however many weeks/months, was that you two should go to a counselor together. It's been my reaction again with each new incident. And now with this new information, I would recommend what Carolyn Hax usually recommends when there is an issue that calls for couples counseling but one person has an objection to going (especially because they are "private" or "proud" and would find it "humiliating"), which is going by yourself. In fact, I think the fact that you think he would probably also be against you going by yourself is MORE of a reason to go, not less. I will state this directly: I don't believe that you seeking counseling for yourself (e.g. to work out your own unresolved feelings about this rather thorny issue) is something that entitles him to be upset with you. And again, if he is, that's more of a reason to go, not less.

Hi Dashrashi,
Thank you so much for your advice. But I already stated I am not willing to go against his wishes and go to counseling right now or do it in secret. I think it will just cause more problems in our relationship than it will solve right now. I already am spending lots of time thinking over everything and writing down all our issues and I think it has been very helpful to clarify what I can do to change and improve our relationship. But thank you for your concern!

Hi Goldenpig --

After taking away the "tissue paper layers," as it were, of your relationship I see so many elements that are familiar to things people in my life have had to navigate. And by "people in my life" I include myself!

Like style, I think some people are blessed with knowing how to communicate and connect intuitively with a partner while others have to learn the skills.

Things like big life changes (from kids to jobs/money to sickness etc), co-existing of different but both strong-willed personality types, independence vs compromise that doesn't compromise one's inner self/values, priorities -- when one is in a relationship it's so important to find healthy ways to get our needs met by both ourself and our partner. [And to meet our partner's needs in ways that feel right to us.]

In a nutshell, I think a couple has to turn towards each other constantly in ways big and small rather than turning away when one's feelings are hurt. [Confession: this does not come naturally to me...it's why I loved many things about being single most of my life!]

That doesn't mean living in each others' pockets or sharing hobbies 100%, but it does mean actions that show the other person they are loved and valued in ways that communicate that to them. [The love languages thing that's been mentioned.]

Since you all are medical pros and I watched House last night: right now you all seem to have a lot of symptoms -- and you/you two need to identify what's causing them.

We've thrown up a lot of ideas..."he's doing that and maybe it's because of this" "you're doing this and it may be due to that"...but you two, preferably with the help of another professional, need to get to the answer.

If you choose to go to solo counseling and your husband reacts to that, it's ok. You'll have more information for the diagnosis.

If your going makes your husband see how committed you are to a healthy marriage and makes him want to find another, couples counselor, THAT'S ok. Again, you have more information. And information understood in context is, as they say, power.

Good luck and please do take some action. A strong, deeply emotional bond between parents is a wonderful thing for children to see day in and day out. [And for the adults to experience!]

ps As a starting point, John Gottman -- research-based -- has relationship-oriented DVDs and books that might help. IIRC men prefer the (edit to correct, geez!) the DVDs.

Yes Vix, I think books may be a good first step and less threatening to him if I do that. I have read several of them including a couple of the Gottman books but I think I may need to check some out again. He still won't read the books, I tried that before. I used to devour baby/parenting books as well, but again, he never was interested in that sort of thing. I can't remember all the exact ones I've already read (I think I did do 5 love languages and Baby Makes 3 and Relationship Cure) but let me know if there's any good ones you all recommend!

We are both committed to the relationship and if I really felt like the marriage was in big trouble or failing I wouldn't hesitate to seek counseling! But I really think we just got a little off track and have been in a rough patch lately, largely of my own doing with my recent behavior, so I am trying to remedy that and I see that there are many little things that I can do to improve things. He cares a lot and is being nice to me and we are trying hard. I think all couples have their issues and I don't want to alarm anyone by posting all this so please don't worry--we aren't in dire straits or anything!

natalie, my hubby and i just did the 5 languages of love quiz together that someone had suggested. it's an online quiz that we did in less than 5 minutes. going thru it together helped me understand my hubby just a little bit more, especially where i would have picked a different answer. i also liked seeing him struggle between choices (2 equally good or equally bad). even though we had been together for years, i still learned a thing or two about my hubby and we spend 30 minutes talking about the quiz and where we were and where we wanted to be. nothing heavy, but it was a reassuring check-in.

if you're hubby likes games and not books, perhaps this quiz would be a good starting point for how each of you expresses and receives love. rather than focusing on the fashion thing, it puts it into a context of the wider relationship.

here is a general description of each of the 5 languages

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/.....languages/

here is the quiz

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/assessments/love/

be well, my sweet. i think of you often these days.