Harry Potter and Feminism - YouLookFab Forum

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Harry Potter and Feminism

Irene

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As a fan of Harry Potter AND Literature, I have spent a fairly amount of time arguing about how Harry Potter is more than just a fantasy series of books. It's a saga that analyzes themes like friendship and faithfulness to one's beliefs, but also talks about politics, race issues, power, the greyish tones in-between black and white and braveness, among other topics. However, I had never thought of Harry Potter as a feminist text. Watching this documentary, which I found yesterday, made me realize that it has indeed proposed a different type of female character which has never been popular in literature, except for some rare instances (Jane Eyre, Lizzy Bennet, Jo March...). And I really like that Hermione is smart and quirky in a very human and flawed way. It's fresh, and I'm glad to discover that it really has become a role model for teenage girls, because she is much healthier than Bella Swan. Of course there are so many other female characters in the books that are powerful and brave on their own, and that instead of depending on men, complement their male counterparts in an even, really modern way.

I really wanted to share this discovery of mine with you, and encourage all the moms out there to provide your children with this books if they haven't read them yet. They really are amazing, although not the reason I started reading books. That one came much, much earlier for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Pj-MPN_co

PS: And I would love to be friends with JK Rowling, Emma Watson and Helena Boham Carter. They sound like such interesting women!!

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15 replies

Latest reply was from Jjsloane

rachylou

Veteran

I like Helena Bonham Carter a lot. She's interesting and has fun clothes.

I also loved reading the Harry Potter books, but after the last one, I have to say that I don't know that I'd recommend them. It really bothered me that our hero, Harry, was so ignoble with regard to Snape. It wasn't OK and it's a much bigger deal than was made of in the book. Harry is, you realise, the sort of kid to beat up others for wearing too much black. He and Malfoy are more alike than a person wants to admit.

On the other hand, Hermione was a girl of solid character. Sometimes her worldview was a little small (what with all the pencil squibbing), but she's a solid girl all things considered. A zillion times more healthy than Bella Swan, who IMO is unhealthy.

But I have a question: So I guess I don't read popular literature. But what is the typical female character in popular literature, and how typical is typical? Are we talking about those books about 5 generations of mid-western women, their lives, their divorces, their daughters?

Irene

Veteran

Well, personally I was talking about the Snowhite type of female character. You know, she is the protagonist yet somehow she always needs a guy to defend her. Even Belle and Ariel, whom I have always regarded as rebellious, strong (young) women, give up everything they love to be with a man, which is great as long as the man does the same thing, but they don't. Modern version would be Pretty Woman, or Bella Swan. Or Elena from Vampire Diaries, too. I don't read that much 'popular fiction' either, and I have only found them in romantic fantasy/paranormal fiction -I don't read any other 'genres'-. These girls are main characters, and normally most guys will fall in love with her. She has other friends -both male and female- but somehow none of them matter as much as she does. Everybody needs to protect the girl because she is defenseless and as much as she tries to prove them wrong, every time she makes an effort to protect them and return the favor, she gets in danger and needs to be rescued again.

Of course if you go for literary fiction, which tends to be more realistic and critical all around, you'll find all sorts of female characters.

But when it comes to genre fiction -like erotica, chick-lit, fantasy, crime fiction- it's still rare and worthy of being mentioned when a female character actually takes the lead and is presented as independent and equal to men in terms of power, capacity and ability. It still surprises a crowd, which is both nice and sad at the same time. I have to say I did like Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games and Cinder and Scarlett (from the Lunar Chronicles series), but, as I said, they are still a novelty -just like witty Lizzy Bennet from Pride and Prejudice was back in the day.

As for the Snape issue... ah, I don't know. I've always been a fan of Snape, and never much of a fan of Harry -I rarely like leading characters, I think it's because they are so relevant lol-, but I get Rowling's point and idea. See, I've read very little from Dickens but I can see Rowling has read more Dickens than me. And in Dickens you always get this really dark character whom is meant to be disliked by the reader so that a surprising truth can be revealed by the end of the story. And as much as I liked Snape, the man looked suspicious in many instances. And, actually, the fact that Harry doesn't feel that sorry for what his dad did to Snape when they were kids makes him much more human, and real, and biased. Snape was his dead dad's enemy and it has to be hard to get over that idea.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

But why did Hermione have to end up with Yucky Ron? And the non-Caucasian character (Cho) have to be such an airhead?

I wish there were better literature role models for girls, but our role models can be guys, too, right? I mean, there are strong males in classic fantasy, like Lord of the Rings. All the chicks stayed home and were sparkily.

I remember having Tintin as a role model growing up - and I think I turned out okay. After outgrowing Tintin, I had Marie Curie. I secretly liked the fact that she got all this praise and Pierre seemed like an airhead who didn't do much (even though he was a scientist in his own right, I think I wrote a paper in grade 7 about how useless he was).

ManidipaM

Veteran

You know, while I agree Rowling does better than most, with Hermione and McGonagall and Luna and Mrs Weasley (people love Ginny but I feel like we hardly see her)...I am personally waiting for the big multi-volume bestseller with the female protagonist with a male and a female sidekick apiece who do *not* get married or date each other, a boyfriend who is neither a rescuer nor a sop, a female mentor and female nemesis and female secret agent... and a (traditionally) non-'feminine' quest objective (unlike, say, the beauty vs brains premise of Uglies). But she also has plenty of unfortunate stereotyping---and I sometimes think 'token racial representation' minor figures are more irritating than none at all.

I find a Series of Unfortunate Events is somewhat ahead of Rowling on countering the 'it's-a-man's-world' background noise, though still too many visible/active males and too few females at all to be even-handed. Tamora Pierce's books are rather good in this respect, esp the Circle of Magic series. I still like Pippi Longstocking. And Joanne Harris' Runemarks or Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching books in the Discworld series are pretty good.

Echo

Veteran

Interesting discussion, but in all my lit classes I always wondered how intentional most of these things were to the writer. Analyzing fiction is a big business and very popular in high schools and universities, and there isn't anything particularly wrong with it, but I often wonder if we are looking for things that aren't there, kwim? Perhaps in many books the writer wrote the character because that's what they liked or disliked about people, or because it worked best in the plot. Perhaps the writer didn't intend for their work of fiction to be some platform for feminist or Freudian or religious or other beliefs or for it to be picked apart in such detail.

FWIW, I agree about Hermione AND Harry (he isn't a particularly great hero, and has a lot of flaws). And I never found Ron to be "yucky".

ManidipaM

Veteran

Echo, what is interesting for the purposes of literary criticism is that authors without intention quickly start to reflect social conditioning and bias---thus becoming useful sites to discuss these issues (easier than say discussing the religious and gender politics of current political leaders, being far less inflammatory and handily static...though Rowling loves to insist on breaking that rule with het endless and irritating authorial explications). And yet others actually do write with an agenda, which makes them fair game for critiquing the success of the avowed position or goal. Thus Rowling has herself made much of her identification with and treatment of Hermione Granger.

ironkurtin

Veteran

I love the Harry Potter books and think they are wonderful. The only hesitation I have about recommending them to children is that when they came out, they aged along with the audience. Now all of the books are available and a child just fine with books one and two are soon going to find themselves wading in much more complex waters.

Also, I have no idea what the Snape thing mentioned above is about. As far as I can recall, it was Snape who treated Harry badly throughout, and Harry - at the end - acknowledged Snape's heroism enough to name his son after him. I was perfectly satisfied with this interpretation of the hero's journey, as well as the resolution with Malfoy. Malfoy is a toad, but he became less toadlike, and both Harry and Malfoy know it. Neither of them is perfect and that is just fine.

I also thought Hermione was an awesome character from page one. As for her ending up with Ron... that's classic hero story structure, too, isn't it? She could have ended with any of the other lads, but it's much more rounded to have her complete the story with Ron.

FlorenceFearne

I will admit first thing that I am a Harry Potter fanatic, and thus my views may be taken with a big spoonful of salt.

That said, I feel a little confused by some of the criticisms here. I didn't view Cho as being an airhead, or or any other non-caucasian character as being there just to fill some kind of diversity quota. In fact, so little was said about their various ethnic backgrounds that I didn't imagine Lee Jordan to be black until the movie came out. The only prior "clue" was the mention of his dreadlocks, but if you grew up anywhere with hippies, you knew plenty of white guys with dreads. And "yucky" Ron is a bit perplexing, too. He was always in Harry's shadow, but I never assumed there was anything wrong with Ron. He just suffered by comparison to the famous Harry Potter. I do understand it's a bit trite how everyone married off in a tidy fashion at the end, but as a long time reader, I appreciated the closure.

Overall, I like that the characters are occasionally juvenile, or annoying, or foolish - they are generally as imperfect as a bunch of teenagers anywhere else on earth.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

I haven't read Harry Potter in a few years - but I always came away with the impression that Hermione was the girl that kind of got things done. By comparison, Rowling didn't really spend much time fleshing out the rest of her female characters except for some romantic interesting role (I suppose Ginny did get some additional book time in the second book, but as a victim who needed to be rescued), and all I remember about Cho is her weeping and moping about Cedric. And why did she always need to be "Cho Chang".

Ah, I forgot about Luna. Luna was pretty cool. And different. And liked it that way.

I kind of hope that Rowling will get sick and tired of her billions of dollars and go back to write a series about the older generation in Harry Potter - Molly and Tonks and Lupin and Sirius I think I identified more with as a kid reading the books.

As for Ron being yucky, when I read the books, I always thought he came across as very whiney and mopey too - the tall and gangly and weird kid who only had Harry Potter as a friend.

Echo

Veteran

"authors without intention quickly start to reflect social conditioning and bias---thus becoming useful sites to discuss these issues (easier than say discussing the religious and gender politics of current political leaders, being far less inflammatory and handily static."

This is absolutely true, and you are right that books provide a handy platform to discuss social and other tricky issues without being as controversial as using public figures or real individuals. Still and all, though, I often wondered what Salinger would have made of the way Catcher in the Rye was dissected in so many classrooms. Granted, the characters were perfect for that sort of thing, whether intentional or not, but I still had to wonder if he and so many other authors would have agreed with the critiques or whether they would be or were shocked at their texts being used for such discussions.

Deborah

Veteran

Interesting thoughts here:) I have to confess that I have not read, nor seen any of the Harry Potter movies. My son was not allowed to watch them as we felt the themes were inappropriate for young children, I am sure at some point in the future we may read or watch and you have certainly given me something to consider when reading them.

AnnieMouse

Veteran

As far as strong female characters in YA fiction, I was always pretty pleased with Lyra from His Dark Materials and Holly Short from the Artemis Fowl series. Both are very strong, independent female characters that take a very front-end position; even moreso than Hermione.

rachylou

Veteran

It's been a long time now since I read the HP books, and my brain is such that I file my judgements and no text from the book. But I filed the matter of Snape away as smart man who isn't going to let Harry get away with his arrogance, just because he's a poor little orphan or a super star. It disturbs me greatly that people like Harry so much and that they don't notice his serious character flaws. I preferred Ron, actually, to Harry; Ron was sincere where Harry was calculating, always calculating. Snape and Luna are my two favourite characters, btw, in the HP series. Luna is, in fact, my role model in life. Hehe.

Very interesting about the matter of "Snow Whites." I'm not sure I always get what folks are talking about, for a variety of reasons, on the "princess front." One is, when and where I was born, the feminist movement was on. I don't have much experience of women taking a back seat to men. When I read the princess fairy tales, I see some truths. That women have to step back and let men do some things; just because you can, doesn't mean you have to and no one else can. That, frankly, only one of the DNA donors can breast feed and will need some rest after giving birth, and in the mean time someone has to go out and get the fixings for dinner. That it's all well and good to have people disappear from work when their baby is born, but in the meantime, there is still bread to be baked. The person who's been doing your job for months while you were gone, where do they go now? It's not that simple. The "shoulds" don't line up that neatly.

My neighbor, tho, whom I like to talk about, has had a completely different life experience. Apparently her world has been filled with misogyny, promoted by both the men and the women. Men eat at the table, and women and children eat the scraps off in a corner.

His Dark Materials... That was another series I liked until the last book, which I felt revealed morally questionable principles... altho, haha, I can't recall exactly what they were now.

Irene

Veteran

I had thought of reading some Pullman in the past and after reading your views on his work, I am seriously considering it.

Not a fan of fantasy -even Harry Potter, which I started reading at age 12, was a chore for me in the beginning. I've always felt more drawn to realistic fiction- but I believe some things are just worth reading, no matter whether they are your preferred genre or not.

FWIW, I never even noticed 'real races' in Harry Potter (I was talking about the muggle-squib-half-blood issue). And I don't think Chang being whiny has anything to do with being an Asian. They just wanted the 'girl who rejected Harry' to look bad, and as it happened, they also decided Harry would dig an Asian girl. I never got the idea that Chang was like that because of her Asian origins.

It was interesting to read your thoughts!!!

Jjsloane

Veteran

Interesting discussion, I guess I never analyzed it all that much past the fact that they were interesting and I enjoyed them even as an adult. I read the books and listened to the books on CD series (which were amazing and came alive for me almost more than the movies did due to the fantastic performance of Jim Dale) and have seen all the films. I have also been reading them with my now almost 9 year old and he is enjoying them (we're only up to the 3rd one). I need to interview him to what he's taken from them so far.
In regards to female characters in youth literature I much prefer Katniss to Bella (hated Bella actually - in books and films). I will likely encourage my daughter towards Hunger Games rather than Twilight, but in the end I want them to read anything and everything they can.