YouLookFab Forum » Topic: "Womanly": how do you feel about it?

YouLookFab Forum » Topic: "Womanly": how do you feel about it? https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Sat, 18 Apr 2026 14:51:34 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php Caro in Oz on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360196 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 23:35:15 +0000 Caro in Oz 1360196@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I love how open minded you are Una & how you examine your reactions catgirl on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360193 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 23:15:42 +0000 catgirl 1360193@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Caro, so well put. I started this thread because I didn't like the reaction I had to a word. And look how deep it's gone. Caro in Oz on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360173 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 22:36:13 +0000 Caro in Oz 1360173@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ "We are our own enemy when we absorb negative judgements (usually from men in power, because men ARE in power) and push them outwards on others; when we decide being a woman is a problem or a fault; when we point fingers at other women for decisions they've made in response to social ideas. This is true whether it's foot binding or the word "womanly." We are our own enemy when we hate ourselves, because we've been TAUGHT to hate ourselves, because of the social dynamic we're in." I agree that if we have internalised (& not examined) the expectations society has for us then we will naturally side with the oppressors. Whether the reasons are good or bad women are colluding with the powerful to oppress other women. We have been taught to hate ourselves & we can & do project that hate onto other women who don't fit our social norms. As women we do raise our male & female children so imo we need to take some responsibility, even if it's only to show our kids there is another way :) ironkurtin on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360064 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:28:34 +0000 ironkurtin 1360064@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Agree, AG. rachylou on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360050 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:16:55 +0000 rachylou 1360050@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I've looked into foot binding. The available evidence on its origins is not impressive, for all the volumes written. catgirl on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360049 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:16:06 +0000 catgirl 1360049@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I think the rules come from men. Women tend to enforce them as the keepers of societal norms - not wanting their daughters to be ostracized or shunned. But it's men who set the standards and expectations. If you take the men out of the picture, would foot binding and waist cinching and all that still exist? I went to a women's college and can tell you that not having guys around was 100% freeing at that age, at least for me. Is it more likely to be the mom or the dad who teaches their daughters how to dress, diet, and present themselves to the world? And for whose eyes? ironkurtin on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360033 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 18:04:55 +0000 ironkurtin 1360033@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I really encourage you to research the beginnings of these things.  Many of them are very well-documented. rachylou on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360032 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 17:55:02 +0000 rachylou 1360032@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I think these things grow. Start small and grow. Someone says, "her feet are too big." Somebody hears that and thinks, "I'm gonna keep my daughter's feet small." She tries it, her neighbor tries it... but I don't know that many men saw the unbound feet or could have possibly enjoyed the smell of rot. You have to raise up the men to expect it. Point fingers at other women for decisions they've made in response to social ideas That's an interesting one, because social ideas are social. That is, we're talking about things you do that effect your neighbors. And people don't see how things effect and hurt their neighbors. One person's inventive and positive sex life is another person's call to CPS. Saw a whole lot of that growing up the Bay Area. Still do. A whole lot. I mean, I have to live in my liberal locales, but that's not one of the bright spots of doing so. ironkurtin on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360020 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 17:17:15 +0000 ironkurtin 1360020@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I don't know if it's a different response.  We are our own enemy when we absorb negative judgements (usually from men in power, because men ARE in power) and push them outwards on others; when we decide being a woman is a problem or a fault; when we point fingers at other women for decisions they've made in response to social ideas.  This is true whether it's foot binding or the word "womanly."  We are our own enemy when we hate ourselves, because we've been TAUGHT to hate ourselves, because of the social dynamic we're in.  In short, I doubt women invented purdah, but they may have embraced it for social or religious factors as a result of a hostile world created by men.  And it IS  and HAS BEEN a hostile world. Now, I will also acknowledge that oppression can also be a source of power if it's co-opted.  I know many women argue that the bourka is a source of power, when others argue the opposite.  It all depends on your framework. Also: I've actually done a bit of research on foot binding and it was done for men.  Because it was associated with status, it became super sexy.  Women like to appeal to men, so they did it - it was a way to marry off your daughter and make sure she ate every day.  Who's to blame?  Everyon, for buying into this weird fetish.  But definitely let's not let men off the hook here or anywhere else, because let's face it, women often HAD to please men to live.  They didn't have a hell of a lot of other options. rachylou on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1360003 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 17:01:49 +0000 rachylou 1360003@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Of course, I immediately thought of the "blame the victim" counter-argument. It's quite interesting how you get one response with the Pogo cartoon, on the matter of "we are our own enemy," and another when you get to the really ugly stuff. And most certainly with foot binding and female castration, grown women were/are really on-board. Foot binding I feel must be an invention by women for women. I don't know that men like to get that close to women's "matters." My neighbor and I are contemplating doing a performance art piece: IS IT YOU? ironkurtin on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1359990 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 16:41:45 +0000 ironkurtin 1359990@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Well, I suppose we could always blame the female sex for their own religious and social oppression.  After all, they did participate in foot binding, female castration, anorexia, etc. etc.  But I think men - who as I think we can agree have historically had immense power over women's lives - bear the elephant's share of the blame for making those things desirable to, or necessary for, women. rachylou on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/5#post-1359864 Sun, 21 Sep 2014 06:27:09 +0000 rachylou 1359864@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Two random thoughts: 1. I've long wondered if purdah - or women being "inside people", as the Chinese once used to put it I'm told - wasn't an invention of women that got out control. 2. I've always been completely repelled by that men's look that was very popular in the 1990s - the one that involved beautiful "french blue" shirts and v-neck sweaters worn with no shirt underneath. It's very stylish to my eye, but I did always find it was being sported by men who felt they were trading on some kind of sexiness - like my MOST BORING DATE ever. So it was "sexy dress" because of that - but it was about sexiness in the same way sexual harassment is about sex. Very mock to me. fuzzylogic on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359739 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 23:51:16 +0000 fuzzylogic 1359739@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Interesting discussion, IK! Thanks for your considered responses, everyone.  I've really enjoyed reading them! To me, the term 'womanly' is intimately associated with 'sexual maturity (physical characteristics and possibly emotionally)', whereas 'girl' is not.  You have asked if there is anything between the two; to that I would say yes, life is rarely black and white and includes all shades of grey! Discovery is a journey.  And annagybe has already raised transgender issues. I am female, I am a woman, I am womanly, I am feminine, I am sex, I am sexy (in my way).  I own all of these terms.  I have no issue with being called womanly. rabbit on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359731 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 23:15:36 +0000 rabbit 1359731@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Not Anna,  but according to wikipedia (so grain of salt) first wave was before and through the war years,  second wave started in the early 1960's and coexists today with third wave which started in the early 1990's when I was in college.  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism</a>.   There are several differences, but one is:  Third-wave feminism distinguished itself from the second wave around issues of sexuality, challenging female  heterosexuality and celebrating sexuality as a means of female empowerment. Gaylene--yes, I wasn't including sex workers wearing a work uniform/advertisement of services.  I agree of course that not all women who dress in a sexual manner feel attractive or self-confident, although given free choice many might have chosen their outfits wishing to feel that way.   In my experience with teen girls all kinds of clothing can mask all kinds of feelings going on underneath, and like Anna says, the search for identity involves experimenting hard sometimes, pushing at boundaries.  Caro in Oz on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359722 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:56:01 +0000 Caro in Oz 1359722@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ "It sortof makes me sad that sexuality is so devalued in the States. It should be a source of happy power, IMO."  Me too IK. Claudia, I feel sad too & in lots of ways it is women who perpetuate the shaming of other women.  This is a really interesting thread & a great reminder of the power of words & of our assumptions.  I'm a feminist & will continue on my quest for womanly androgyny in my clothing I will rely on my sisters to tell me if that means I'm frumpy or matronly :) deb on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359706 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:12:42 +0000 deb 1359706@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Anna, what age group do associate with first wave feminism, second wave, and third wave? annagybe on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359681 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 21:42:43 +0000 annagybe 1359681@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I think "trying to hard" irks me because it implies everything must be easy. Everything is not easy, especially life. Insert Princess Bride quote.  Making an effort should not be diminished. Some things when you work at them become all the better. Who is someone actively harming by dressing a certain way, even if it sexy or womanly. I am reminded of some thinking regarding rape victims and saying she was asking for it by dressing too whatever... And I haven't even breached slut-shaming. Plus at least for me I do a lot of personal exploring in my dress. Hello, I went through a huge goth phase in the twenties, grey lipstick and all. In exploring, some women choose to dress sexually. Some get piercing and tattoos. There's a whole range of expression. We don't live in North Korea or Bhutan with state sanctioned dress. ETA Also how much of the thinking is second wave feminism versus third wave feminism. Unfortunately we have very few millennials on here to get their perception. minimalist on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359672 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 21:30:36 +0000 minimalist 1359672@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Gaylene, do you think there's always something beneath dressing to please oneself? Even when it's done at a cost? Anna is someone who strikes me as undilutedly, unabashedly dressing to please herself. Perhaps this is possible (if it's true; is it, Anna?) when one has a uniform for work. On another note: Anna, what bothers you about the phrase "trying too hard"? Or, what uses of it bother you? FWIW I'm still dressing primarily in conformity to the law and the weather. I'm not yet at a place where my way of dressing pleases myself. annagybe on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359668 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 21:27:40 +0000 annagybe 1359668@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ And nobody has breached the topic like of model Andreja Pejic. He started as male model doing men's shows, began doing woman's runways and magazine work. And now came out as transgendered.  But has always been a physically beautiful person. Gaylene on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359580 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 19:03:19 +0000 Gaylene 1359580@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I also love your posts, IK,--and those of all the women on this site because I think dressing has so many ramifications once you start peeling back the surface of " I dress to please myself". I agree that we all employ whatever tools are available to us when we assume roles in the workplace, but I think sexual power is more likely to be misinterpreted or misused than other sources because it is derived from a very narrow sense of a woman's role in society. Charm and charisma work across gender lines, but sexual power is aimed deliberately at males--and usually works best on those males who are witless enough to not see the manipulation that lies under the surface. It is also a power source that is most likely to be resented by other females because it is so closely associated with stereotypes of feminine beauty and youth. As Rachylou so astutely points out, it's the orientation of outwardly accepting the stereotype in order to further one's personal goals that makes me feel so uneasy. I've done it, it works brilliantly, but I've never been particularly happy with myself when I've chosen that route. ETA: @rabbit--I think it's a stretch to think that dressing in a "sexy" fashion is always an outward manifestion of feeling sexy and worthwhile. I've seen too many young women adopt a "sexy" appearance to mask inner turmoil and feelings of worthlessness. I also imagine that women who are in the business of selling sexual services adopt a "sexy" style of dress, without necessarily feeling the least bit sexy or attractive. Or women who adopt a "womanly" style because it is demanded by the society or faith that they espouse. ironkurtin on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359577 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 18:56:36 +0000 ironkurtin 1359577@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Side note: What do we consider the "womanly arts"? catgirl on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359575 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 18:48:17 +0000 catgirl 1359575@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Well this is why I love discussions here. Claudia, I agree with you, although I think talking about it is the first step to changing it. I know my reaction didn't sit well with me, and that was why I posted, hoping for insight and analysis into the source. And you all came through as usual. :) Not exactly on this topic, but related to changing societal expectations: I know I am the last person anyone expects to see in my line of work. I like to think paradigms get shifted in our individual lives and not just in more global ways. rabbit on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359544 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:55:22 +0000 rabbit 1359544@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Yeah, I'm trying to think of examples where I or someone I knew dressed in a way that looked sexy and at the same time wasn't dressing that way because it made them feel sexy or attractive and I'm coming up blank.   Also I think so much has to do with the people you interact with.  One group's 'cute' is another group's 'racy'.   Also I'm nodding to IK's comment again.  People use physical power from posture to dress to height in so many subconscious ways in workplace interactions, and whatever road a woman chooses with regard to gender markers in dress probably has some positives and some negatives in terms of how she is perceived.   Given that, for me all roads that are effective and not overly disruptive are good.   Charm and charisma work for both genders after all.    ironkurtin on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359508 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:49:26 +0000 ironkurtin 1359508@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I always enjoy your posts, Gaylene. Speaking as someone who always had to deal with men - often uneager men - as an absolute equal (if not as a superior), I choose to respect and draw power from the differences.  I am a woman. I also have brown hair and eyes, a gray cat, and a green rocking chair.  All of these things inform but do not define me unless I chose to let them.  And if those things impress someone in a way I can't control, well, vive la difference so long as you stay out of my way. Gaylene on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359507 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:46:20 +0000 Gaylene 1359507@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Ditto to Rachylou. It's the orientation that ties a woman's worth, or power, to an external stereotypical role or image that makes me uneasy--which is totally different than internally feeling sexy, or womanly, or feminine, or whatever. Dressing to FEEL "sexy", to my mind, is not the same as dressing to LOOK "sexy"--which is also fine, if that's your preference. What makes me uneasy, though, is when women choose to find their power by adopting a sterotypical type of "sexy", or "womanly", or "feminine", dressing that allows them to manipulate others into seeing, and reacting to, them in terms of the stereotype, instead of as an individual. Regardless of how we feel about the connotations placed on words like "sexy" or "womanly", this discussion shows how powerful these stereotypes are in our minds as well as in the rest of society. To me, the real question is how do we choose to cope with them. rachylou on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359490 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 16:04:36 +0000 rachylou 1359490@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Interestingly enough, body shape doesn't get much play in my mind when I hear 'womanly.' To me it's an... orientation. I think that's the word I'd use. thimblelina on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359443 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:49:29 +0000 thimblelina 1359443@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Yes, I second Claudia! It has made for a fascinating read, though... Patriarchy as a social, lingual, cultural construct is the oppressor here. (and the term 'manly' is also fraught for men I would wager). In a truly just social construct expressions of biological duality would be devoid of value judgement, stereotyping and shame. SarahTheWhite on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359427 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 13:57:36 +0000 SarahTheWhite 1359427@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Very interesting topic! I don't think that I have many emotional triggers when it comes to descriptive words. I must just be very literal. To me it simply means "like a woman" so I would take it to mean that something makes a person look, feel, or act like a woman and not like a girl, boy, or man. I personally feel that it leaves lots of room for variety. We all know, as evidenced here, that women come in every physical, mental and emotional form imaginable. I think that "womanly" encompasses them all. But I still don't find it to be a positive or negative thing - more of a factual thing. Janet on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359424 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 13:51:49 +0000 Janet 1359424@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Yeah, in my world, "manly" is more often likely to be used in a ironic, sarcastic or joking way. But mind you, I spend my time around a lot of artists, hipsters, and musicians. And when I go to Texas, "manly" is just a given, no one ever says it. ironkurtin on ""Womanly": how do you feel about it?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/womanly-how-do-you-feel-about-it/page/4#post-1359420 Sat, 20 Sep 2014 13:48:12 +0000 ironkurtin 1359420@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I think manly gets used more than womanly, at least where I work. But then I deal with archetypes.