https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Sat, 04 Apr 2026 23:14:46 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-497288 Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:52:58 +0000 chewyspaghetti 497288@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>There just are certain looks/pieces of clothing that I associate with certain subcultures. Docs are punk shoes to me, whereas military flight jackets are Skinhead. Converse are alt rock shoes and beanies are skater hats. There is a certain look that is a very distinctive southern California Mexican gangster look that I sometimes still see (baggy chinos or long khaki shorts/white T/sneakers). When I was in school, and a kid that dressed like that got into a fight at school- you knew that 13 of his friends would be backing him up with knives and chains. Even though this isn't what the gang bangers of today wear, the associations remain. I try not to make judgements about people on their look alone, but I still have associations of certain looks/clothing pieces. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-497256 Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:24:24 +0000 RoseandJoan 497256@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I do wear Docs Elly, I think of Docs representing the working classes in Britain. As you rightly stated the early skinhead culture was very different to what it became. The dr marten website sums up my thoughts on the matter perfectly<br /> '<br /> 'In those early years, however, there are two distinctive and pivotal moments when Dr. Martens and youth culture became melded together, inseparably as it turned out. First up was the early skinhead, a multi-cultural, ska-loving homage to the British working classes, mimicking the dress sense of the working man with an obsessive attention to detail – style was everything. And so Dr. Martens was wrenched from the factory floor into youth culture and, for the brand, nothing would ever be the same again. '</p> <p>I would like to think my open smile would mitigate any of the negative connotation which are attributed to Docs. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496130 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:51:23 +0000 Janet 496130@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I wonder how much some of these associations have to do with regional differences. I knew plenty of punks and new wavers who wore Docs in the 80s but actual skinheads were quite scarce, so my Docs association goes to the punk kids, who were all actually pretty nice people, just different looking from the norm. I have absolutely no Docs=skinheads association in my mind.</p> <p>Levis were so totally ubiquitous by the time I was in high school, they were worn by everybody -- preppy kids, jocks, burnouts...so I have no particular associations with them either. </p> <p>I don't think a whole lot about cultural appropriation in clothing until something seems out-of-place or disrespectful in some way. I don't care for religious symbolism on clothing (or anything else for that matter, being a person for whom spirituality is a personal thing, not something to be broadcast), but I also don't much care for large words or logos either. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496104 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:11:36 +0000 velvetychocolate 496104@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Just thought of something...</p> <p>Am I the only one who thinks of "Risky Business" when thinking of Rayban Wayfarer sunnies?</p> <p>edited to add: Risky Business dance scene video on You Tube:</p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2UVsyVLLcE" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2UVsyVLLcE</a></p> <p>:) </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496096 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:57:06 +0000 Suz 496096@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Elly, thank you for raising this. I don't have much to add to the discussion but I appreciate your raising these points and I agree that it is important to be mindful of the referents of any iconic items we may choose to wear. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496090 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:42:52 +0000 velvetychocolate 496090@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Extremely interesting post - one that lured me out of lurkdom :)</p> <p>I do see the Doc Martens as somewhat associated with skinhead culture, and as a result, I have a hard time with seeing them as maintstream, 'iconic' fashion. I've never worn Docs, and I think it's because of the punk/skinhead connotation. Although I might have gone for the slightly spiky hair, plaid pants and so on, I wasn't into the Doc Marten boots. </p> <p>I don't notice any connotations with Converse or Levi's though. In fact, I don't remember seeing a whole lot of Converse at all. Levi's (to me) were rather mainstream and not something I really wanted. </p> <p>edited to shorten up post. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496061 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:59:16 +0000 Jonesy 496061@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Very interesting, Elly, and the replies are stimulating too. I do think about these things, for sure. My two cents: It seems like there are tons of factors that shape to what extent an article of clothing or an aspect of style or fashion will remind someone of something in particular. Age/generation, part of the world, community growing up, race/ethnicity/culture of origin, gender, SES, subcultures exposed to or interested in/a part of, etc. etc. </p> <p>I grew up in rural Iowa. In the '80s when I was in high school, we wore shrink to fit Levi's. They were our uniform, along with men's white tank tops and flannel shirts (footwear was desert boots or Nikes). Very androgynous, now that I think about it. So when I think about those sorts of Levi's, I think about my adolescence, though I can see the references that you've mentioned, now that they've been pointed out to me. </p> <p>I agree with Rae about the Docs. They just connote something very specific when paired with suspenders, a shaved head, etc., vs. standing alone. They have become more mainstream, in a sense, which gives them adaptability: They can mean different things to different people residing in different places. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496018 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:23:40 +0000 ironkurtin 496018@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Yes, the Nazis totally lifted the hooked cross. I believe theirs goes in one direction while the Buddhist one goes in the other, but am not an expert. It is a shame that such a strong cross-cultural graphic element has such a terrible connotation, since that symbol didn't have a negative meaning until the mid 1900s and will likely never be shed of it again. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496013 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:16:49 +0000 Mellllls 496013@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>i honestly don't think a lot about this but i know i should. i will come back to this thread when i have a bit more time to think about it. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-496005 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 01:13:13 +0000 Elly 496005@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Rae- interesting points! Of course, there is always the correlation between grunge being influenced by hardcore punk, which was influenced by the original skinhead culture. </p> <p>IK-- I don't truly associate Levi's with cowboys, but then again, Wranglers have been the cowboy norm in the ranching community I grew up in since at least the late 50s (cowboy cut wranglers were first cut in '47 or '48). I think it is funny that you mention Nazi symbolism-- the most obvious one being the swastika, with it's history as a pre-1930s world symbol found in cultures throughout the Americas, Europe, and Asia (Still is very common in Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, and Navajo symbolism). Talk about appropriation! I have a pre-30s heirloom baby quilt covered in the things passed down from a Native grandmother who stitched it into the crazy quilt to serve as a blessing symbol. The swastika is a symbol that is used in sand paintings by medicine men in Navajo culture, yet in a reservation community near me this happened recently: <a href="http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2011/August/11-crt-1064.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/.....-1064.html</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-495965 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:25:57 +0000 Anonymous 495965@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I don't have much to add, but I appreciate the deep thought that has gone into this post Elly (and others). Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and convictions. I always get a lot out of a well written post. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-495960 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:19:41 +0000 Jjsloane 495960@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Levi's for me were the first "name brand" clothing item I had to have. My mom still remembers when I refused to wear the Sears, JC Penney, wrangler brands she bought so I had to save up to buy real Levi's to be cool. (and then came Designer jeans like Jordache and it was really all over) They didn't have more than a few cuts (all boys really) and you had to get them unwashed and then wash the heck out of them to make them fit and soft. I even convinced my little brother he could not be seen out in no name corduroys or jeans. My mom loved me for this.<br /> I first wore Docs as a waitress because they were black, indestructible, kind of funky and I could wear them for 12+ hours on my feet. I later got some fashion ones given to me and lately I've found their more mainstream styles and love the comfort and stability (and slight edge for a 45YO MOTG) </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-495958 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:16:14 +0000 Aziraphale 495958@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Very interesting read, Elly.</p> <p>To answer your last question ('Is it important to you?): in short, no. But I'm not unaware of the link between fashion and the various subcultures. It's just that it's fairly obvious, I think, that I don't belong to any of these subcultures, given my age and station in life. Plus, I might dress with, say, a grunge element to my style one day, and sexy secretary element the next, or a 1950s greaser, or what have you.</p> <p>I do think that items start to lose their subculture connotations when they're appropriated by the masses. Think yoga wear. Fourteen years ago, a woman walking around in yoga pants broadcasted her belonging to the yoga subculture, which in Vancouver at least was already in high gear. Now all the suburban moms wear them, and that link is gone. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-495957 Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:13:08 +0000 ironkurtin 495957@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think of Levi's as being very Western, because when I was riding horses (Western) oh yay back in the day, it was either Levi's or Wranglers. Therefore they are cowboy jeans to me, and when I wear them, that's what I love about them.</p> <p>I have no one association with Docs because they have been worn by people around me in every conceivable shape and size, in every country I've ever been in. I wore a pair myself doing a walkabout in Europe, and they were great.</p> <p>So, while in some respects, fashion history means something to me - I understand the references you are mentioning, and I absolutely draw the line at really disturbing emblems and items like Nazi gear etc. - I tend to take something and make it mine, and if there's a different subtext, I tend to think of it as sublimated to my own intent. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-495950 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:57:49 +0000 cciele 495950@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing -- one can be members of several different subcultures.</p> <p>I do think about fashion and appropriation -- but more specifically in terms of appropriation of spiritual, national, or religious icons. At some level, seeing Native American fetishes or Christian crosses commercialized for the sake of fashion makes me uncomfortable. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-495946 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:49:59 +0000 rae 495946@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I definitely think about these things, and this is such a thought-provoking thread. Thank you for bringing it up!</p> <p>IMO, everything you wear has a history and, thus, everything also makes a statement to the world, whether the wearer is aware of that or not. Some history is much more in the forefront of current events - like wearing camo prints during wartime - and some have receded to more of a subconscious level - like the 501 connection you mentioned, at least in my neck of the woods. I think that every person shapes the commentary of their clothing based on how the individual pieces interact in an outfit. </p> <p>Take Docs, for example. One could choose to highlight the skinhead associations by reinforcing the link - wearing Docs AND 501s AND suspenders. Or one could choose to highlight the grunge associations with destroyed jeans, flannel, or baby tees. Or you could highlight the workwear aspect with utilitarian Dickies and such. You could even wear them as an ironic counterpoint to a glittery ball gown. </p> <p>Most people aren't that dedicated to any single style, though, and that comes across in the outfit as well. Docs with skater shorts and a Transformers tee shirt? Probably just means the guy happens to like durable shoes, skateboards, and robots. Nothing too deep, because nothing is really being repeated or reinforced there. </p> <p>For me, especially after coming to YLF and giving real thought to my style statements and the cause and effect of dressing, I find it much more rewarding to consider these issues and make deliberate choices. It's also so helpful to think about these things when it comes to why an outfit *didn't* work - like those studded platform mary janes I had in high school. They were edgy and masculine, but the style story behind black leather, studs, and 4" platforms didn't mesh with my personality. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/who-wears-docs-and-levis-thinking-about-connotations#post-495897 Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:16:04 +0000 Elly 495897@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>A comment Angie made in her tribute post the other day got me thinking-- she wanted to know if anyone still wore traditional 501s. My family was having the same conversation the other day-- my grandmother was reminiscing about shrinking them in the bathtub in the 50s when she was a teen. </p> <p>I know there is a raw denim cult following among some young men who subscribe to those notions, and the following sometimes includes shrink-to-fit 501s. </p> <p>However, the biggest group of people I'm familiar with that still rock the 501s as a fashion statement are skinheads. Consequently-- they also rock the Docs. </p> <p>I'm informed enough to know that the original skinhead scene in england was about youth expressing themselves and class identification and later the fashion influenced the hardcore punk scene. </p> <p>That said, white supremacist skinhead culture in the U.S. also adopted the Levis, Docs, tattoos, haircuts, and suspenders of UK skinhead culture. A lot of supremacist skinhead attention has been turned to the issue of immigration from Latin American countries in the U.S. (particularly from Mexico). There seems to be a draw for young men of certain persuasions in rural (typically ranching, farming, and meatpacking) communities where the recent memory of the Klan (but not an active chapter) remains. While there are a lot of adaptions of skinhead fashion, supremacist youth in Southern and Eastern Colorado tend to keep their swastika tattoos under wraps-- however, there seems to be a growing trend of outwardly representing their allegiance with the shrunken, cuffed Levis and the doc martens. </p> <p>Obviously, Doc martens are pretty mainstream and were part of a huge pop culture movement, as were the Levis. Obviously none of the ladies here wear their boots in a way that is indicative of membership in a certain subculture. </p> <p>Is it just me? Am I the only one that thinks about these things? Sometimes we talk about appropriating cultures-- do items have powerful connotations on their own? Do they lose them when they are appropriated? Do they lose them when they are worn by upstanding suburban moms? Is it important to recognize the history and the current social impacts that our clothing is tied up in? </p> <p>I know a lot of us have expressed an appreciation for "classic Americana"-- the jeans, boots, white t-shirts and the like that bring up images of hot-rods and James Dean in the 1950s. Two of the other items that made Angie's Icon list (Frye Harness Boots, Converse all-stars) in addition to Levis were part of greaser subculture. These items we see as "American" once served as symbols of identification with a youth-centered, working-class American subculture. A group that was closely associated to street gangs and ethnic tensions and stereotypes against Hispanic and Italian Americans. </p> <p>Fashion as part of culture has a history that is almost impossible to escape. There is nothing "new" under the sun. Is it important to you? </p>