https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Tue, 21 Apr 2026 20:42:35 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1796043 Sat, 08 Apr 2017 01:26:18 +0000 Aziraphale 1796043@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>It probably goes without saying, but I think it's depressing that we even have to have this conversation. It shows how much it's still a man's world.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1796028 Sat, 08 Apr 2017 00:25:10 +0000 rachylou 1796028@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Actually, that's true for me too, Sara: never an issue in hard tech. But problems in soft tech. And the energy industry is too much: serious drinking there, which not many women wanted to do. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795845 Fri, 07 Apr 2017 14:41:16 +0000 Sara L. 1795845@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Interesting conversation! &nbsp;I work in a male oriented field (engineering) and I've never come across this. &nbsp;All my bosses have been men and most of my coworkers. &nbsp;The only place I've ever had a male ask a female to be in the room is at the gynecologist when the male doctor had a female nurse. &nbsp;In that situation it makes complete sense to me. &nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795843 Fri, 07 Apr 2017 14:38:40 +0000 Beth Ann 1795843@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I'v avoided this thread for awhile, but I hope I'm able to jump in with a first person view, since I've been aware of this "rule," and the (BG) Billy Graham rules that surround it. &nbsp;</p> <p>First, BG's approach of not criticizing his colleagues in ministry is one of his greatest legacies, alongside the financial accountability that is so crucial -- churches and ministries are more transparent and healthy because of this. &nbsp;</p> <p>As for the rule about interactions with the opposite sex -- my DH and I use this rule, kinda like a Pirate Code (meaning it's a more a guideline, in a wink to the movies). &nbsp;It is not just for protecting fidelity, but also for safety from false accusation and, well, just safety. &nbsp;These days, it sometimes has nothing to do with affairs or the just the opposite gender. &nbsp;In my years teaching at a Christian college, I taught private music lessons, but my studio was in a well traveled corridor with a window in the door. On one occasion I was actually physically threatened by an male student angry over his grade. &nbsp;I was grateful that a male colleague heard the kerfuffle , peered in and intervened. &nbsp;</p> <p>DH spent 20 years in pastoral ministry, and is now a college professor. &nbsp;If he meets with a female colleague, congregant or student, he might make simple adjustments. &nbsp;For example, he might meet in the open area of the church, at a comfortable table in full sight, but with enough space for the conversation not to be directly overheard. &nbsp;There have been times when he has just texted me when he's going to visit with someone and he might be alone -- we also use the "Find My Friends" feature on the iPhone, which means I could know, if I wanted to, exactly when he enters and leaves a location. &nbsp;Of course, it's really a way to avoid the phone calls, "Are you still at Target?" since he can just look and see now, lol!</p> <p>FWIW, my view alongside DH, as he entered the private parts of people's lives (sometimes taking me along, when it seemed to make sense), I saw relationships torn apart by secrets and lack of care --- &nbsp; A marriage is strengthened first by the energy invested in each other, without which, boundaries are pretty meaningless.</p> <p>As for the patronizing quality of the BG rule -- I've been on the other side of that, too. &nbsp;When I was a teen, the whole "pastors should only give side hug thing" became popular. &nbsp;I told my pastors, whom I had been close to since childhood, that if they were going to give me such a lame hug, they shouldn't bother! &nbsp;I also speak up regularly whenever someone asks me, (and yes, it's happened), to speak to a young girl about her "dress." &nbsp;I challenged one male elder to go to the junior department at Kohls and see if he could put together an outfit that was cute -- and to the knee. &nbsp;Gamely, he took me up on it, and came away with a new sense of how difficult it can be to run the gauntlet between the expectations of others. &nbsp;Finally, I did suggest to one elder, who questioned my willingness to kiss men onstage in opera (in gooey makeup and sweating under bright lights in front of loads of people), that I wasn't a Jezebel, but I might be a Deborah, or, better yet, a Jael! &nbsp;Truthfully, I don't think he knew who Jael was! &nbsp;&nbsp;<a rel="nofollow" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jael">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jael</a></p> <p>I do not know VP Pence personally, but I now live in his state. &nbsp;My work colleagues have lobbied him in the Governor's office, and two friends at church worked with him on his staff. &nbsp;There are many who disagree with his policies (I don't often agree with him, either), but to a person they affirm that he was accessible, and willing to hear someone out. &nbsp;They all loved Karen Pence for her advocacy and simple ways -- which are getting her pretty much chewed up in D.C. &nbsp;I think it's appropriate to make sure that women who work in government have equal access to the VP, and that his "rule" doesn't affect his job. &nbsp;Heck, I'd offer to bring alone a "3rd party!" &nbsp;Rather than have one of Pence's aids in the meeting, I'd bring alone my daughter, or another young woman, inviting her into the halls of power with me -- to do a little "team building," you might say. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795800 Fri, 07 Apr 2017 13:38:50 +0000 Isabel 1795800@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Gaylene, what an interesting perspective regarding "proving" one's love. &nbsp;I hadn't thought of it that way. I looked at it as a "gesture". &nbsp;Hmmm...I would have to agree with you on that.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795452 Thu, 06 Apr 2017 17:22:31 +0000 Gaylene 1795452@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Viva, you've expressed my thoughts EXACTLY! Viewing interactions between the genders only through the oppressor/temptress/victim lens is demeaning to both sexes. There is a need to teach BOTH boys and girls about integrity, respect, and self control--neither gender gets a free pass. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795447 Thu, 06 Apr 2017 17:10:51 +0000 Anonymous 1795447@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I couldn't agree more, viva.&nbsp; Schools can teach a lot, but things like how to dress and how to conduct oneself appropriately are usually learned at home.&nbsp; I have a feeling like a lot of young people just pick up what their peers are doing, and it's very hard for parents to override the pack mentality.&nbsp; Better to start young so when they have to make these choices, they at least have the benefit of some earlier education on the repercussions of certain behaviors.&nbsp; Sermon over!! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795383 Thu, 06 Apr 2017 14:31:07 +0000 viva 1795383@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think the Billy Graham rule is very out of step with modern business interactions, although given how litigious our society is, and how many cases we have seen of impropriety and criminal behavior, I suppose it probably does make sense to follow this rule in situations with severe power imbalances (teaching, for example). But the VP? That seems so ridiculous it suggests to me he is not fit for the post.</p> <p>Also, I think ChewySpaghetti raises points that are probably worth an entire separate thread, but one that might be very difficult to navigate. Girls and women are so often victimized and blamed that I think we have to tread very carefully here, but I agree with Chewy that -- just as boys need to be taught about consent, respect, and what is criminal behavior, girls need to be taught about making choices with intention and responsibility, including how they present themselves. This is not about blaming a girl, it's about teaching her what we all know here: that how you present yourself does matter. And, as a sober person, I think all young people, boys and girls, need to be taught at a very young age about the effects of alcohol on decision-making, as in: when you are young and you drink, you lose the ability to make a rational decision. Off-topic of this off-topic, but anyway ..... &nbsp;(Sorry, feel passionately about this...).</p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795263 Thu, 06 Apr 2017 04:02:12 +0000 elpgal 1795263@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Xtabay, I agree. It is hard to find a good balance with all the conflicting messages women get.</p> <p>I don't understand who it is Mike Pence wants to impress with this rule given his position.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795261 Thu, 06 Apr 2017 03:55:59 +0000 Sal 1795261@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I agree wholeheartedly with you Gaylene. &nbsp;Often people who are very pious in public are the most duplicitous in private (gross generalisation I know- but certainly true of several Political Figures here).&nbsp;</p> <p>I have done a bit of further reading on this matter and while I stand by my original comment (that political figures are wise to be cautious and suspicious, and I can understand that facing a trial by media is a frightening prospect), I wonder if this goes further than that, and does show a certain view of the world.</p> <p>WRT appropriateness of women's clothing, it is a minefield. &nbsp;I don't envy female teenagers trying to navigate the world of clothing choices. &nbsp;I can remember choosing outfits that in retrospect were not the wisest choices (too short, too tight etc) because I was experimenting, on a tight budget and really unsure of what the parameters were. &nbsp;And I have to say, wanting to be liked and wanting to be attractive, in my own way on my own terms.&nbsp;</p> <p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795111 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 22:25:12 +0000 chewyspaghetti 1795111@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>It's been asked why women are seen as temptresses. I am suggesting that our clothing may be a part of the answer. Traditionally, men are taught that they cannot control their urges. Women are taught that they must have utmost control over their bodies. I think this is why men more than women feel the need for these rules. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795082 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 21:05:00 +0000 rachylou 1795082@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Interesting question, Gaylene. I probably would be leery if someone 'needed to prove' and tried to overtly set up 'rules' beforehand. But I do prefer it if people simply follow them. My oldest friend just puts her bloody husband on the phone with me and makes us talk, lol. We do our duty, and stop as soon as possible. Hahaha! It's a bit of a pain, but I feel it's important for the health of marriage. Apparently we (them and me) all do and like it. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795077 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 20:53:28 +0000 ClaraT 1795077@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>IMO the rule is rediculous and just another excuse for perpetrating sexism/misogyny. The appropriateness of clothing is a red herring in the context of this rule (and a totally different, although interesting, discussion).&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1795061 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 19:47:19 +0000 Gaylene 1795061@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Am I an outlier here if I would be leery of any man who would need to "prove" his loyalty to me, and our commitment to each other, by insisting on having a chaperon whenever he had business dinner or private meeting with a female colleague? </p> <p>In my experience, if someone is seeking an intimate relationship with a boss, colleague or subordinate, all the chaperones, glassed office windows, open doors, head-to-toe draped clothing, and avowed "rules" won't stand in the way. Some of the most duplicitous, unsavory behavior I've witnessed has been by individuals who outwardly extolled their commitment to a code of conduct. Mr. Pence either will, or won't, conduct himself properly, but I suspect his "vow" is less of a shield than his own personal integrity. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1794928 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:28:26 +0000 chewyspaghetti 1794928@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think we need to actively fight back against those messages and raise women who dress thoughtfully. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule/page/2#post-1794924 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 13:00:32 +0000 Anonymous 1794924@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think we should give the young women a break.&nbsp; They get all these messages from the media about how being a woman means bringing the sexy, and then when they dress accordingly, they get in trouble for it.&nbsp; Men don't get these messages, and aren't brainwashed into thinking they have to look like bimbos.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1794914 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 12:50:32 +0000 Isabel 1794914@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>My 14 year old daughter and I JUST had the conversation about appropriate clothing the other day. AND I just had the conversation about wearing Daisy Dukes with the cheeks hanging out and the girls in jr. high and high school. &nbsp;I find that this doesn't happen often but I do see it. &nbsp;In jr. high, they get sent home or the parent gets called to bring clothes. &nbsp;The nature of women's clothing makes it much easier to veer off into "exposure". &nbsp; I do feel that we no longer talk to our children about "appropriate " dress in general. I have these conversations with my son too who is 15. &nbsp;Not because of exposing too much of himself but because gym shorts are not appropriate for everywhere and everything. &nbsp;Even if it is "just" his grandparents' house on Easter.&nbsp;</p> <p>Now, to connect the clothing with Echo's post, this can circle back to the antiquated thinking that if a woman dresses in a manner that exposes herself, she is asking to be harassed or raped because a man cannot control himself.&nbsp;</p> <p>Now, to be clear, IN NO WAY am I saying that Pence is taking that position at all. &nbsp;He is not. Because if he cannot be alone with Teresa May or Angela Merkel or Christin Lagarde , that is NOT a clothing issue. LOL !!!! Those women are always very appropriately dressed.&nbsp;</p> <p>I think that for Pence he believes that it is a manifestation of his loyalty and commitment to his wife. &nbsp;But wait until Teresa May wears that above the knee skirt again. hahahahahahahaha</p> <p>( A digression : remember the crap that she got in the press for wearing the shorter skirt and her shoes ? Geeeeeezzzzzzz. &nbsp;Again, I am not a fan of Teresa May but leave her alone. )&nbsp;</p> <p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1794791 Wed, 05 Apr 2017 01:01:33 +0000 elpgal 1794791@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I see Chewy's point. I see this in my casual science workplace with the younger folk. The men come dressed in polos, t-shirts, button-downs with &nbsp;trousers, khakis, jeans, rarely shorts. The women are all over the place - very figure-hugging skinnies, sheer tops, clingy tees etc. The women start dressing more conservatively as they get into more senior positions, the men just upgrade to better quality outfits.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1794687 Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:22:43 +0000 chewyspaghetti 1794687@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I'm not saying they would Xtabay, but they do go to school that way. I realize it's a slight shift of the topic, but something I feel the need to include. The difference between men and womens dress is even more divergent outside of work environments. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1794681 Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:04:40 +0000 Anonymous 1794681@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>In my former business office, we had a guy come to work in shorts, with his boxers on display above and below the shorts.&nbsp; With flipflips.&nbsp; He was sent home to change.&nbsp; </p> <p>No woman ever came to work with her cheeks hanging out, though.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1794676 Tue, 04 Apr 2017 16:49:54 +0000 chewyspaghetti 1794676@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I want to bring up a point that I have never seen mentioned in these types of discussions - the difference in the way that men and women dress.<br /> In a business environment, men will be covered from at least upper arm up and a tiny v of chest down. Women, on the other hand, can get away with showing their entire arm, neck and chest, and lower legs. It didn't use to be such a difference, but now it is. I think this very much affects the dynamics of inter-sex business relationships. It's also the reason we see dress codes for young ladies that we don't see for young men. Young men don't need them. You would never see a young man in a cami or tube top with his cheeks hanging out of his shorts. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1794607 Tue, 04 Apr 2017 13:21:59 +0000 Isabel 1794607@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>KKards basically stated it for me. I have no problem with it unless it infringes on others or the running of the government. &nbsp;When I worked, I really did not like meeting with male co-workers or clients alone in hotel rooms ( food or no food ). I wouldn't outright dismiss it if their really was NO other choice and the matter at hand was considered classified by our company or the customers' institutions. &nbsp;But it definitely wasn't my top choice. However, I always felt that alcohol was never appropriate for meetings. Ever.&nbsp;</p> <p>At the same time, I agree with Xtabay and Shevia...it does send a message that men simply cannot control themselves and we shouldn't expect them to when around women ( who are all temptresses ). &nbsp;</p> </p> <p>ETA &nbsp;It is unfortunate that we can't discuss the current representatives of the people and a general &nbsp;belief system of theirs without it being seen as political and thus, automatically divisive. &nbsp;In reality, &nbsp;what we have is a very interesting and well thought series of responses about subsets of our society. &nbsp;( I am not a supporter of the current administration...but that has nothing to do with Pence's position and how I feel about it . )&nbsp;</p> </p> <p>&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1794183 Mon, 03 Apr 2017 15:55:39 +0000 Anonymous 1794183@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I couldn't agree more, Shevia.&nbsp; If men have a problem with women looking so irresistible that they can't control their "urges," why don't they just wear blindfolds or eyemasks?&nbsp; Why put the onus on women?&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1793994 Mon, 03 Apr 2017 02:22:41 +0000 Jaime 1793994@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>As Xtabay suggests, this sort of thing seems very akin to modesty rules in other religions. Some Orthodox Jews also have very strict rules about the separation of the sexes, and which parts of a women's body can be exposed (hair, elbows, knees and collar bones are frequently banned from exposure). And I always resented that the onus is on the women to hide her irresistibly tempting self from the uncontrollable urges of men. I realize this is an oversimplification, but I have yet to be convinced this is not the root of it and it is wrong. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1793909 Sun, 02 Apr 2017 22:27:31 +0000 Sal 1793909@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I have found this thought provoking.</p> <p>Males who work in certain industries here are very cautious about how they are seen to interact with others, in particular in childcare, schooling and the medical professions. &nbsp;There have been several cases where accusations have been made against males that have been very difficult to prove either way. &nbsp;This has put some males off entering those professions and we have a dearth of male primary school teachers for example. &nbsp;There have been cases where someone has acted inappropriately and there have also been false accusations made.</p> <p>Either way I do have sympathy for people who are in the public eye and wanting to reduce their risk of being accused of acting inappropriately and not being able to prove their innocence, and potentially facing trial by the media.</p> <p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1793903 Sun, 02 Apr 2017 21:42:10 +0000 RobinF 1793903@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I hadn't heard of this before either but it is very thought provoking. I am an accountant and work with a lot of men and would not want to be treated any differently than the men we work with. The assumption is that the men can't restrain themselves and the women aren't able to handle the advances that could occur. I don't really believe either of those are true most of the time.&nbsp;</p> <p>I do agree that we should avoid the appearance of misconduct. For example, my husband worked at a place where the boss and a female underling went out together often, to the extent that it caused some gossip and speculation about their relationship and I feel that should not happen. But this was an extreme and we should be able to have meetings with the opposite sex without these issues. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1793875 Sun, 02 Apr 2017 20:10:26 +0000 Style Fan 1793875@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I appreciate the way that Gaylene, Ryce, Echo and others have responded to this.&nbsp; I have never heard of The Billy Graham rule.&nbsp; That might be because I am Canadian.&nbsp; <br />At my work I would meet with other colleagues to discuss work related issues.&nbsp; My colleagues were not all women.&nbsp;&nbsp;Not all the men I worked with were heterosexual.&nbsp; Not all the women I worked with were heterosexual.&nbsp; Meeting alone with another colleague&nbsp;was a job expectation and necessary for patient confidentiality.&nbsp; Someone's spouse is not legally or ethically going to sit in on meeting.&nbsp; And we do not need a chaperon.&nbsp; There are other ways to deal with this. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1793837 Sun, 02 Apr 2017 16:54:38 +0000 rachylou 1793837@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I don't know much about Billy Graham, except that he bent every president's ear. But I just read this about Billy Graham's other rules: <a href="http://www.npr.org/2017/04/02/522247794/beyond-the-mike-pence-misogyny-debate-the-3-billy-graham-rules-you-havent-read" rel="nofollow">http://www.npr.org/2017/04/02/.....avent-read</a></p> <p>The problem, it occurs to me, is that you can deceive using the truth. There was a priest (a Monsignor) in my parish who went to jail because he embezzled and molested boys. You'd have an inkling something was off in the parish, but couldn't ever say what. If asked why no advanced catechism for girls, he would say something about boys and training for the priesthood. That's true enough, but that's not what he personally was about.</p> <p>Rules depend on integrity. They don't ensure it.</p> <p>ETA: I have to add my confessor was a ridiculously conservative, strict man, but also an extremely good man and priest because of it, I believe. He DID step up and do the advanced catechism for girls. His conservative nature, however, was used against him with regard to the Monsignor and didn't serve him well - because he obeyed. But this is a tough road to navigate. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1793802 Sun, 02 Apr 2017 14:32:01 +0000 Tina 1793802@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I agree, it is most likely an insurance policy against false accusations. In the different cases I've read the man will almost always be presumed guilty. Even if he does manage to be cleared, the time, energy and financial cost takes a real toll on marriage, family and career. There are times when men are at a real disadvantage. They cannot do it right. Men that practice this across the board are likely doing it to be fair and not have accusations of discrimination. For men in positions of power it is good business. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/the-billy-graham-rule#post-1793801 Sun, 02 Apr 2017 14:30:32 +0000 Anonymous 1793801@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Gaylene and Echo have expressed my thoughts on this issue better than I ever could. Thanks to you both.</p> <p>I would wholeheartedly expect any professional who had discomfort about dining or meeting alone with any category of persons to extend any such "rules" to all persons. To do otherwise is manifestly unfair. And in the employment context I think it would be strong evidence to support a sexual discrimination claim. </p> <p>I find it especially distressing to think that an elected official might have different "rules" for how he interacts with male and females constituents. </p> <p>So does this mean that our Vice President will not have a private meeting with a female MOC, administration official or foreign dignitary? If that is the case, he should resign. </p>