https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Fri, 17 Apr 2026 05:35:18 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me/page/2#post-2113979 Tue, 14 Apr 2020 20:50:45 +0000 Stagiaire Fash 2113979@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I’ve only heard the phrase “golden ratio” in reference to architecture and painting, though I am familiar with the thirds idea in fashion (pretty sure I heard it here). </p> <p>For the book, consider online sources like google books or your local public or university library. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113645 Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:15:10 +0000 Helena 2113645@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Shevia, I've looked and looked for that book but no luck unless I pay hundreds for it! </p> <p>I agree I think our intuitions are probably fairly good at seeing this ratio (that's the point after all - that humans naturally respond to it. The theory is super helpful to figure out what the fix is though, I think.</p> <p>And of course as Angie always reminds me about colour, we can't see things in isolation ... All the factors play in together to make an overall impression. Perhaps the goal is "informed intuition"?</p> <p>Thanks everyone for sharing your wisdom here! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113611 Mon, 13 Apr 2020 04:25:40 +0000 Jaime 2113611@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I also highly recommend the Triumph of Individual Style. I think it is the one book I would recommend above all others. That said, I don't consciously think about proportions in terms of ratios but ultimately go with what I think looks good. I like to think my taste is informed by everything I have seen and read but then I let it do its thing. Honestly that is how I am about most everything - well read intuitive decision maker. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113610 Mon, 13 Apr 2020 04:25:36 +0000 Suz 2113610@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>It's strange, isn't it, Jenni? I don't fully understand it. But it might be the neckline combined with the proportions here (or the way the neckline affects the proportions.) I wonder if a small V in a top like this, worn with the same bottoms, would have felt better to you? Anyway -- you definitely got your use of the top and brava for that!! And I think you look really pretty in that outfit.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113597 Mon, 13 Apr 2020 03:25:48 +0000 Jenni NZ 2113597@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Ha! Thank you Suz. Well I persevered with the top enough to get 34 wears out of it. At original sale price of $50, that took it down to around the $1.50 mark per wear. I guess I felt the change of colour to black, and the horizontal line across my middle, was not that flattering. But it is all very interesting how differently we can all see things!<br /> Glad my pics helped you too, Zaeobi. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113537 Sun, 12 Apr 2020 22:23:46 +0000 Suz 2113537@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I have some of the same issues that <b>Staysfit </b>has...a long rise/ short waist. But my head is big/ long.&nbsp;</p> <p>It's funny, though -- it's not only vertical proportions that you have to consider. Body shape also factors in. Unlike <b>Sal,</b> I don't have long legs (though I do have a short waist). But like <b>Sal </b>(and unlike <b>Jenni)</b> I don't like most tunics on me at all. And in my case, I think it is because of how they hit my thighs at a wide point. A dress-as-tunic works better, overall, even though proportionately it is a bit off.&nbsp;</p> <p>And then there is personal taste -- for instance, the outfit <b>Jenni </b>finds disproportional on herself (her pic #4) is one I <b>LOVE</b> on her! It might be partly that I like the expanse of skin top and bottom and feel that somehow balances and opens the look. But also -- to me, the top here is 1/3 the length of the bottoms. Which doesn't take account of the rest of Jenni, of course. Yet it works, to my own eye. Hmmm.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113500 Sun, 12 Apr 2020 16:15:21 +0000 Zaeobi 2113500@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Will be following with interest. I suspect distractors like belt positioning, crossbody bag straps &amp; necklace length can cheat the proportions a bit (which is why simple dressers must focus on fit). </p> <p><b> @Jenni </b> Your photos are really useful, thanks - may help to explain why shalwar kameez often made me look frumpy in my youth (when shorter tunics were en vogue) but my more modern longer kameez look better. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113474 Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:48:09 +0000 nemosmom 2113474@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p><div>This has been really fascinating, TG!&nbsp; I've measure my sections and have an idea of proportion, but admittedly I still can't SEE it. This will take some more work for me.&nbsp; I can tell when something makes me look stumpy or frumpy, but since I don't SEE what is ideal, I suspect that's why I can't figure out how to shift it in my favor.&nbsp; Maybe I need hard numbers... off to hunt!&nbsp; Just popping in to say thanks for this post, I think you are on to something!<br /></div> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113461 Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:09:23 +0000 Staysfit 2113461@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Back again to say that I have been playing with my wardrobe and learning some interesting things. &nbsp;Proportions and the golden mean are both interesting and frustrating.&nbsp; In my case, my waist is short and my rise is long but added together they are just about equal to the expected ideal proportion. It is easy enough to compensate for both of them at the same time because attending to one automatically addresses the other. &nbsp;I suspect this would hold true for many people and to me this speaks to the elegance of how the body is built.&nbsp;<div><br /></div><div>However, when I successfully lengthen my tops to create a longer waist and shorter rise, the overall proportion of my outfit become distorted. Frustrating! &nbsp;I lose the 2:3 or 3:5 ratio. &nbsp;To clarify, there are two proportions I am thinking about: 1. The vertical relationships between the different sections of my body (head, torso, waist, rise, legs, etc.) 2.The overall proportion of an outfit. &nbsp;I am not positive, but if I want to maintain golden mean proportions, the best solution seems to be using columns of color and low contrast dressing to trick the eye, or bypassing my waist completely with dresses, or maybe tunics. &nbsp;Skirt and jean waistlines bisect me in the wrong place for proper proportions so tucking and decorative belt uses are problematical. Another solution may be to wear a topper in the right vertical proportion, ie. cardigans or blazers. I believe I naturally gravitate towards these solutions in my daily wear, &nbsp;Despite this, I sadly noted that few of my tops or toppers are an ideal length for best proportions, they need to be either shortened or lengthened. &nbsp;I am not planning a major alterations overhaul......but will use more care with future purchases......<br /><div><div><br /></div><div>Plunging down this rabbit hole might be a bit treacherous for those of us who are not perfectly proportioned! &nbsp;I suppose that’s why I have never bothered before....... &nbsp; :-)&nbsp;</div></div></div> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113458 Sun, 12 Apr 2020 09:56:43 +0000 Liesbeth 2113458@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I use the 1/3 2/3 rule somewhat but I hold it lightly. Like Roxanna, I learnt most about my most flattering proportions from taking full length outfit pics. And then occasionally I like to throw them out the window for a trendy or avant-garde silhouette.<br /> Fwiw, I think your 'uniform' proportion of fitted sweater with skinnies is very flattering already. Probably your intuitions on where to end your top hemline are correct ;). </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113453 Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:44:46 +0000 Gigi 2113453@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Like&nbsp;<b>Staysfit,&nbsp;</b>I learned about proportions from The Triumph of Individual Style. I think you would greatly enjoy reading this book. It really helped my personal style a lot. The book talks not just about proportions but about all kinds of ways you can analyze your own body and then reflect those findings in your clothing choices.</p> <p>I find proportions immensely helpful when getting dressed. I'm not slavish about it, but if I put an outfit together that seems meh, I often can use proportions to find out what is wrong.</p> <p>I often use the 2:3 proportion&nbsp;<b>Staysfit&nbsp;</b>mentioned. The way I use it is to say that the item I'm wearing on the bottom should be 1.5 times the length of the item I'm wearing on top (or vice versa, if you're wearing a tunic, for example). It can get tricky, though! I had an outfit on the other day--untucked drapey black blouse and white kick crops, can't remember the shoes--that looked good, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out why, because the top was almost exactly the same length as the kick crops, which effectively would have divided me in half. Then I realized that my hair, which is almost to my shoulders and is very dark, almost black, was in effect extending the length of the black blouse--making it 1.5 times the length of the kick crops. So you can manipulate proportions by doing things with your hair (wearing it up or down) and by changing the color of your footwear.</p> <p>I really enjoy using proportions in my outfits. I don't always use them, but I view them as an extremely valuable tool. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113351 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:35:51 +0000 gryffin 2113351@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>TG - this is a very important concept in my world. I use the golden mean in pretty much everything. In decorating how much color and proportion of accent color. In architecture is the space pleasing because of proportions. How can I balance that. In fashion...well Coco Chanel said it best “Fashion is architecture: it’s a matter of proportions.” Many sites like: <a href="https://thefashioncode.com/behind-the-code/" rel="nofollow">https://thefashioncode.com/behind-the-code/</a>, will show you examples. I use it all the time w long over lean(tunics/leggings/long jackets), And shirt and cropped w bootcuts and midis. Long jackets over minis. It’s what looks best to my eye. Like having a grouping of 3 objects rather than 2 or 4. It’s math and balance. Whether you call it golden mean, phi, Fibonacci numbers it’s all the same concept. There is simply a magic when the proportions align. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113346 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:11:28 +0000 Roxanna 2113346@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>@Helena I find what helps me is taking photos of myself in the different proportions and then comparing them side by side - I can instantly see what is off that way. But somehow I can’t do it live in front of the mirror! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113331 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 13:02:40 +0000 Aurore 2113331@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I knew of the "rule of thirds" in photography...but had never thought of it in the context of outfit proportions! Thank you for pointing out such an interesting thing to ponder... </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113328 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 12:43:45 +0000 Helena 2113328@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Sorry for disappearing but oh my goodness, thanks for the wealth of information here! Jenni, thanks for the photos too, and Staysfit for the tricks; I'll be trying these out later today for sure.</p> <p>I really struggle with trying to 'see' the proportions because I have the WORST spatial sense ... but I wonder if I look at outfits I like vs I don't and analyzed them, would this be part of it? This definitely is explaining my ambivalence to high waisted tucking ... the proportions plus my lack of a waist make the whole thing block-y to my eye.</p> <p>Suntiger, I may like your column of colour solution best of all!</p> <p>Thanks everyone for commenting and sharing your knowledge ... off to Imogen's site now </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113309 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 11:06:24 +0000 Staysfit 2113309@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I went back and looked at the proportion section of The Triumph of Individual Style. &nbsp;If you are able to get hold of a copy of the book, it’s very dense with useful information. &nbsp;The most pleasing proportions are the 2:3 and 3:5 ratio’s. &nbsp;Forum members have been correct in saying individual adjustments are needed if your vertical proportions are not ideal. &nbsp;So, how do you know if your proportions are not in keeping with this elusive ideal? &nbsp;<div><br /></div><div>Solution: &nbsp;1. Measure the vertical length of your head with a string. &nbsp;Divide that into your total height. &nbsp;If your answer is 8, your head is in perfect proportion to your body. &nbsp;If it is more than 8, than your head is short in proportion to your body. &nbsp;If your answer is less than 8, then your head is long in proportion to your body. &nbsp;&nbsp;<br /></div><div><br /></div><div>I did this and discovered that my head is slightly short in proportion to my body. &nbsp;My result was 8.3. &nbsp;I assume this is why my hair stylist and I prefer hair styles that increase volume on top of my head, making my head look longer. &nbsp;It’s odd, because if you isolate my face without considering my body, it has a long narrow shape!&nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>2. &nbsp;Upper torso: &nbsp;Use the string to measure from the chin to your waist. &nbsp;If the result is twice your head measurement in number 1, your torso is in proportion. &nbsp;If it is less than two head lengths than you are short waisted. &nbsp;If it is more than two head lengths you are long waisted.</p> <p>Surprise for me here! &nbsp;I am short waisted. &nbsp;My result was 1 less than ideal.</p> <p>3. &nbsp;Rise: &nbsp;Measure from the waist to the crotch. &nbsp;If your rise is one head length you are in proportion, &nbsp;if it is less than 1 head length you have a short rise. &nbsp;A long rise would be more than 1 head length. &nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>No surprise for me here. &nbsp;My rise is longer than my head length by 2 inches.</p> <p>4. &nbsp;Legs: &nbsp;Measure from crotch to soles of feet.<br />If result is 4 head lengths you are in proportion.<br />If result is less than 4 head lengths your legs are short.<br />If result is more than 4 head lengths your legs are long.</p> <p>My legs are slightly long, by 0.5.&nbsp;</div><div><br /></div><div>There are a lot of ways to learn about proportions. &nbsp;I know Imogen writes about them as Angie has mentioned. &nbsp;Since I tend to be an analytic thinker the measurements work best for me.&nbsp; I also found some blog posts from a company called The Fashion Code. &nbsp;I think there are enough clues in the pictures that there is no need to make any purchases.&nbsp;<br /></div><div><br /></div><div>By the way. &nbsp;The Triumph of Individual Style goes further in helping identify what to do with less than ideal proportions, and then has a section on collars and necklines. &nbsp;</div> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113294 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 03:16:22 +0000 Sal 2113294@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Good illustration Jenni.&nbsp; I love 8 on you but I also think 7 works really well. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113288 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 02:45:13 +0000 Jenni NZ 2113288@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think the 2/3:1/3 rule can be really helpful to me as a short person. And I think for me, it’s why I liked the tunics/full length leggings so much. I still feel good in a mid-lower thigh tunic with full length slim pants underneath. Even if it’s not a tunic but rather a long top it seems reasonably flattering?<br /> Looking back at photos I have taken since being on YLF I can see the difference. I am intending to edit out my dark floral top that changes to black at the waist, because especially with cropped pants I decided it was too half-and-half and not that flattering. I did manage to wear it 30 times so am willing to ditch it. I chose it for its pretty colours to match my yellow loafers but have at least one other outfit those go well with.<br /> Pics 1-3 reason I chose it in the first place<br /> Pic 4 half-and-half, doesn’t look good to my eye now with cropped pants.<br /> Pic 5 a tunic that looks better proportions<br /> Pic 6 the dark floral top looking slightly better with longer pants?<br /> Pic 7 a long top which is almost 2/3:1/3 I think?<br /> Pic 8 a tunic outfit that’s better proportions but still has yellow in it for the shoes!<br /> I will try to remember this in the future when I finally shop again.<br /> Thanks TG for bringing it up! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113278 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 02:25:15 +0000 rachylou 2113278@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I do find those proportions pleasing. There are many ways to achieve that tho. Belting, colour, a cardigan over something 50/50. Mono colour can bypass the issue too... </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113273 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 02:16:06 +0000 taylor 2113273@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think the 1/3-2/3 is a great place to start, &nbsp;but as Angie suggests “manipulate them to your advantage.”</p> <div>I’m also short waited , &nbsp;so nothing gets completely tucked in, &nbsp;without a long cardigan or hip length jacket over .<br /><div>Fit is the most important factor to me. &nbsp;If it fits , &nbsp;I can make the proportional adjustments. &nbsp;I am fanatical about fit , &nbsp;so much so ,that I literally move every button -1.5 inch- over on my jackets and blazers . &nbsp;It doesn’t seem like much , &nbsp;but pulling it in that amount makes a huge difference on the fit both front and back views!&nbsp;</div></div></p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113270 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 01:51:36 +0000 Anonymous 2113270@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Ditto Staysfit! I don't always adhere to the rule but have decided low contrast trumps it all :)<br /> The thirds rule becomes problematic with (my nemesis) shorts. It's really hard to get around the 1/2 ratio with them- though higher necklines and a wedge heel help.<br /> Full length pants or long skirts naturally give the 1/3, 2/3 proportion- with an approximately waist length or tucked top, so much easier. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113248 Sat, 11 Apr 2020 00:26:07 +0000 Staysfit 2113248@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Toronto Girl, I am glad that you raised this topic.&nbsp; &nbsp;I have recently started to think more about both the fit of my clothing and proportions of my outfits. </p> <p>One recent fit discovery: My best fit is sleek, not body con and not oversized, loose or bulky.&nbsp;I am not certain how to define a fluid fit, but think it may be slightly looser than optimal for my frame.&nbsp; Shopping for trench coats last year reinforced my thinking that on me, an oversized look appears sloppy instead of intentional.&nbsp; I best suit the structure of sharply tailored shoulders.&nbsp; Fits that are snug are also a problem.&nbsp; As I edit my closet, I am removing items that do not have a perfect sleek fit.&nbsp;</p> <p>Proportion confuses me more than fit.&nbsp; I assume the golden ratio refers to vertical proportion, not horizontal or 3-D proportion.&nbsp; I recall read&nbsp; in The Triumph of Individual Style that the ratio's you mention are based on the vertical length of your head compared with the rest of your body....... I need to re-read that section. In the end, I suspect figuring out preferred proportions is an organic and subjective process whereby one plays with wardrobe items and settles on whatever makes them feel the best. To do this it would seem that perfect fit comes into play because it has such strong influence on the perceived effect of the outfit ratios/proportions.&nbsp; In my thinking, a tight item might create a distraction of a horizontal nature and depending on the location of the snugness this could disrupt the eye as it takes in the intended proportion; Similar can happen with too loose an item.&nbsp;&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113222 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:54:59 +0000 Sal 2113222@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Yes I think Imogen is a good source. I know when I get it wrong - which is why tunics often looked wrong on me ( I think with my short waist tunics often were 50:50 ) unless they were quite long. And why I prefer shorter shorts or cropped pants rather than Bermuda’s.</p> <p>I agree it is good to understand the rule and then tweak it. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113218 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:26:43 +0000 Roxanna 2113218@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I actually find this rule useful and I use it in getting myself dressed. I find conventional proportions more flattering on me, so I often use this rule (particularly in summer wth my blouse/midi skirt go-to combo.) I also use it in judging whether a top is too short or long for me (I'm on the shorter side, so proportion is important.) </p> <p>Look forward to seeing how you bring it to life! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113201 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 19:07:27 +0000 Helena 2113201@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Thank you Angie; I will happily accept any feedback and guidance you're willing to share as I post outfits! Xoxo </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113191 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:06:39 +0000 Angie 2113191@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p><b>Helena</b>, you are sooo right. It's best to understand and master the guidelines FIRST. That way you can manipulate them to your advantage successfully afterwards. That's when your set of personal figure flattering proportions are born....</p> <p>I am PEDANTIC about fit and length. I will not wear am item that does not fit perfectly, to my eye. Happy to add my two cents if and when you need it.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113188 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:54:14 +0000 Helena 2113188@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Thank you Angie, yes I veered down a rabbithole! I'll check out Imogen's articles as a starting point ... I feel better breaking rules once I know what they are ;)</p> <p>Fit is a whole other issue which I will delve into in the blog archives since I think you've written lots of helpful posts about it!</p> <p>Thanks all! Xx </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113182 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:27:51 +0000 Angie 2113182@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Sweet<b> Helena,</b> I think you're talking about PROPORTIONS, not fit :)</p> <p>The 1/3 - 2/3 outfit proportion is something that Imogen Lamport from "inside out style" believes in quite strongly. I fully support and understand the appeal as a starting point! Like dressing for your body type. It makes complete sense.</p> <p>I also like to throw the guideline out the window, because why not! &nbsp;</p> <p>I prefer the approach that the wearer establishes a set of PERSONAL figure flattering proportions, and adheres to them. They can evolve over time of course.&nbsp;</p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113168 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:37:34 +0000 nemosmom 2113168@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p><div>HAHAHAHA I mis-read your title to say "Proportions and the 'Golden <u><i>Rule</i></u>'" and was wondering what on earth had happened ! <br /></div><div><br /></div><div>I need more coffee.....!&nbsp; ;)<br /></div></p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/proportions-and-the-golden-ratio---who-can-educate-me#post-2113166 Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:24:58 +0000 Anonymous 2113166@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think there are posts about this in the archives, somewhere. I remember- although maybe I'm thinking of another site- reading them when I first joined here and read every single post right back to the start of it all &nbsp; </p>