YouLookFab Forum » Topic: Pattern Grading

YouLookFab Forum » Topic: Pattern Grading https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Sat, 18 Apr 2026 17:35:21 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php Anonymous on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading/page/2#post-2218198 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 13:25:35 +0000 Anonymous 2218198@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Wow- that sounds complicated! Makes a lot of sense that not all dimensions would have to change, or change at the same rate. I'd think there would be CAD programs now that could do it fairly easily though. Janet on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading/page/2#post-2218190 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:59:03 +0000 Janet 2218190@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Oh Greyscale, that would be interesting indeed! I’d like to know more about the actual design and production of clothing — in my experience, people appreciate the value of what goes into a product much more when they know more about the process of designing and making it. I watched MTC too! Gary is my favorite, and I have purchased from his Amazon offerings (not sure how far you are into the series but I think you’re near the end, so you can find his designs in my Finds — I won’t put them here just in case of spoilers)! I think in-store tailoring, or even having SA’s have some knowledge of tailoring, is a huge benefit! I have become much more likely to have things tailored in the last few years. I can now try on a garment and have a very good idea of whether it can be adjusted to be a better fit on me. In fact, I’ve had some old tops tailored to suit me better, after years of wearing them with a fit that I realized didn’t feel exactly right. For instance: - Taking in the sides of a top, dress or jumpsuit under the arms and through the waist, even on a loose garment, helps prevent me from looking swamped or a top look too poufy and oversized, since I sometimes have to size up for bust or hips. - Shortening and angling sleeves helps me achieve a more flattering effect than big wide sleeves that almost come to my elbows. - Altering the hem of a top so that the sides are vented or the hem is curved creates a nicer line and more ease through the hip than a straight across hem. I’ve had tops shortened at the hem too, since I am short in the torso. Likewise, sleeveless tops and dresses often get shoulders taken up to accommodate that short torso. - The most obvious for most people: I’ve had pants hemmed to a shorter length, but also adjusted for slightly higher front than back so they don’t scrunch too much on shoes in the front and keep a nicer line. - I’ve bought maxi skirts and dresses and had them altered to be midi lengths. I’ve also had slits added to side seams of sheaths to add a bit more ease of movement. Experienced and knowledgeable in-store stylists can point all those things out to a client, and that would be an excellent way to increase sales and perceived value. Of course all of that drives price points up, and this is not going to be a model embraced by Gap/ON and the like. But it circles back around to the idea of buying more carefully, buying fewer, more well-made and tailored items that are customized for the individual. Greyscale on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading/page/2#post-2218140 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 04:09:33 +0000 Greyscale 2218140@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I just watched the previous season of Making the Cut and there was a neat discussion of in-store tailoring as the future of fashion. (Very charming show, by the way! Low drama and supportive. And I'm being cautious about spoilers here.) Something Heidi Klum said on the show reminded me that celebrities tailor everything for a better fit, and I'd be so intrigued to see what her tailor would change on my clothes. I'm into oversized looks right now, and I don't have great intuition for what to change for a subtly improved fit while keeping it loose. It's easier to imagine with more fitted clothes. I bet they'd take things in a touch and shorten the arms so I look less lost in my clothes. Maybe I should ask my amazing tailor to clue me in on all the possibilities! And yeah, it would be awesome if clothes went back to having larger seam allowances for more tailoring options. Maybe hard to make that work with the lighter fabrics and unlined clothes that are standard now? I was a fit tester for Everlane's first batch of jeans (just a lucky fluke of living a few blocks from their offices). They'd sewn samples in a narrow range of sizes, and the designer looked at how they worked on us. They definitely changed the sizing and length; I remember the sample boyfriend jeans were huge on me, and the ones I bought in stores were my usual size. It was my only glance into the professional world of clothing design and it was really interesting! I'd love to know more about the process and how it differs in fast fashion vs somewhere like Everlane that offered very few items back then. Maybe some blog posts? Jaime on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading/page/2#post-2218122 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 01:39:27 +0000 Jaime 2218122@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Absolutely fascinating. I had read a while ago about how difficult it is to grade patterns but had never learned the details. I agree with Janet completely about the importance of specialists - because I do not see how one big manufacturer could possibly incorporate all the variations without cutting corners and lots of waste. Gaylene's point is excellent also. There should be more generous seam allowances in women's clothing at the very least. (You do more often find that with vintage garments.) Sal on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading/page/2#post-2218120 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 01:33:35 +0000 Sal 2218120@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Yes agree Gaylene. Maybe because men buy less it is very accepted to alter. And yes Jenn - it is priorities. Trying to offer a range that suits the reality of different bodies is a start. Some lines will suit broader shouldered women, some may suit those with wider hips. Irina on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218116 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 00:35:33 +0000 Irina 2218116@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Gaylene , I absolutely agree. I accepted that most of my clothes needs to be altered to fit me. I buy the brands whose quality and style aesthetics is close to me and alter it  rather than searching for brands that make clothes for my body type. It is not perfect and not everything can be adjusted but it generally works for me. chewyspaghetti on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218115 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 00:15:25 +0000 chewyspaghetti 2218115@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ That will be part of sustainableclothing lines- the ability to be altered. Janet on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218113 Sun, 22 Aug 2021 00:02:40 +0000 Janet 2218113@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Interesting, Gaylene! Yes, I absolutely agree that it’s a good idea to make alterations easier, and a more normalized and expected part of adding to a wardrobe. I like it when retailers offer alteration services. Nordstrom has done a really good job for me. I wish more stores would follow suit. Gaylene on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218110 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 23:28:25 +0000 Gaylene 2218110@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ As someone who went down the pattern creation/grading rabbit hole when I was sewing tailored workwear for myself in the 70s (following in the footsteps of my mom and grandmother who were both professional seamstresses in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s—all pre-Lycra eras), I can attest to the complexity of fitting garments to the curvatures of female body. It’s bloody hard work to manage a good fit even when fitting to a single live model much less creating a fitting pattern which is capable of being graded into a dozen or more, perfectly fitting sizes for hundreds of women of varying ages, ethnicities, muscularity, and heights. <div> </div><div>Kudos to Old Navy for trying to figure out a solution to this fitting conundrum but I think they are moving down the wrong path. Even if Old Navy insisted on manufacturers doubling the standard 32 base fits,  grading from statistically “average” models still won’t come close to the ideal of creating well-fitting garments for the diversity of female shapes which exist in the population.</div><div> </div><div>To me, the real key to getting clothes to fit individual, real-life bodies is to persuade women that alterations and adjustments are part and parcel of the buying process. Men, whose bodies are much easier to fit, accept alterations as normal because manufacturers build in adjustment points in their men’s clothing and retailers readily provide the service.  Women, whose bodies are infinitely more challenging to fit, have been indoctrinated into expecting a garment to fit off the rack. I’ll save my applause for the designer/manufacturer who consciously builds in easy-to-alter adjustments in critical fit areas and retailers who provide these adjustments as a fast service to all customers. Can’t be done?  Well, a Canadian designer Linda Lundstrom did exactly that back in the 70s when she patented an easy fix for poorly fitting pants by adding an adjustment to the rear crotch seam. I remember buying a pair of her pants and marveling at the ingenious adjustment which made it dead simple to get a good fit on the back of those lined, woven fabric, pants. No stretch required. </div> Stagiaire Fash on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218094 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 21:46:34 +0000 Stagiaire Fash 2218094@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Jenn, yes. Thank you. JAileen on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218090 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 21:29:16 +0000 JAileen 2218090@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I think this is why when I was in my 20s and thin, sleeves were too short, and now, in my 60s and pudgy, sleeves are too long. Jenn on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218084 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 21:06:13 +0000 Jenn 2218084@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Sure, it’s complex, but most of these companies are also coordinating global supply and distribution chains with thousands of moving parts. The complexity isn’t the issue, it’s the priorities. Sal on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218072 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 20:21:10 +0000 Sal 2218072@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thanks CS for this informative post. My friend is a lingerie designer and she showed me how she did this for bras. I suspect the growth of stretchy fabrics and loose styles is partly due to the easier fits across different bodies. Leggings are more likely to fit than denim, tee are easier than cotton shirts. Elle on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218059 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 17:11:18 +0000 Elle 2218059@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thanks!  This is so informative and explains a lot about the fit problems I've had over the years (long torso, small difference between waist and hip measurements).  I've become a loyal Old Navy customer because their pants consistently fit and I can find natural fibers  Stagiaire Fash on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218047 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 16:14:21 +0000 Stagiaire Fash 2218047@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Runcarla, interesting article! This part was particularly frustrating: Finding racially diverse fit models for this series proved to be unexpectedly difficult, which seems to indicate that this sector of the modeling industry is lagging behind in regards to inclusivity. Perhaps this means that fashion brands don't take the bodies of women of color into consideration as much as they should when designing collections, which taps into the ongoing industry- and culture-wide conversation about what a woman's body is supposed to look like — how curvy, if at all, a physique should be — and how clothing ought to fit. Holy devils circle, Batman! If the point of racial inclusivity for fit models is to have clothing that fits bodies that vary from a very specific body type which is much more likely to occur among white women, then of course it’s going to be hard to find women who aren’t white who have those measurements. Carla on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218044 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 16:05:42 +0000 Carla 2218044@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ A couple years old, but interesting none the less.  <a rel="nofollow" href="https://fashionista.com/2018/06/fashion-fit-model-experience-megan-roup">https://fashionista.com/2018/0.....megan-roup</a> cat2 on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218038 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 15:37:22 +0000 cat2 2218038@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Yeah, learning about the fit models really helped me too. I keep lists of brands that fit and brands that don’t, so I don’t waste time shopping a brand that is too short waisted, too narrow of shoulder, etc. I keep ShopStyle sale alerts running for the brands that do work, and don’t budge from them unless I can’t find what I need. Stagiaire Fash on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218033 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 15:22:38 +0000 Stagiaire Fash 2218033@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Angie, I fully agree with your last statement (probably already obvious that I do by now) Angie on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218031 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 15:17:41 +0000 Angie 2218031@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Also adding, that although the fit models used by brands are key, and should be varied and as close to what the customers/markets needs are - it is STILL no guarantee for good fit. If you're lucky and the fit model was based more or less on your proportions - bonus.  Angie on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218029 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 15:12:37 +0000 Angie 2218029@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thank, Khris! I used to grade by hand as a designer. It was a mare :( I then sent out patterns from our sample room to a professional grader - very skilled work - who did a much, much better job. This was 1993, btw. But in the factories, grading was done with CADs, and that was  accurate as far as following grading rules goes. But the rules are a little flawed, and based on the wrong assumptions. Therein lie the fit challenges. (Grading rules are different across mens, womens and childrens wear).  Grading is VERY tricky as it is. As you mentioned, you have to stop adding length and concentrate on width after a certain size. And be careful that armholes and necklines don't get too wide either. That's why - in my experience as dressing people for a living - the hardest person to fit is a plus sized petite person because of the problems with excess length in the torso, necklines and armholes. I see that Old Navy goes up to an 18P. That is at least something. Finding a 24P and beyond is a very tall order. "The best case scenario is that the fit models they use will be the most typical body shapes/weight distributions and that their patterns will allow for the widest array of figures to fit into their sizes" = we can only hope!  Since it's on topic, I will re-paste what I said in your Old Navy thread. Good to have it in one place:  Anna linked to an excellent article, if you missed it. It explains the grading rules that have to change across a large assortment of sizes: <div><div><div> "Waldman and co-founder Polina Veksler self-developed a technique for constructing plus-sized clothing called micrograding. They recognised the weakness of the standard formula for grading towards bigger sizes, which they compare to making a photocopy of a photocopy. “After a while, the pattern becomes distorted (a pair of culottes in a size 4 becomes a pair of palazzo pants by the time you reach a US size 24), so we started grading between every size, and using fit models across our entire size range whenever developing a new garment.” It works. “When you have 11 models (representing alpha sizing) standing shoulder to shoulder, you can see right away if a dress meant to stop at the knee does so on a size 4XS as well as a XL,” they say" This is the care and control that is needed to create a good fit across ALL the sizes! </div><div></div><div></div><div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.voguebusiness.com/fashion/what-happened-to-plus-size"><a href="https://www.voguebusiness.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.voguebusiness.com/</a>.....-plus-size</a></div></div></div></div> Stagiaire Fash on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218027 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 15:08:58 +0000 Stagiaire Fash 2218027@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Runcarla, interesting to look at the different fits like that. I agree with you that it’s great they have them for different bodies! Now to find a way to encapsulate that easily, a common language that can be used across brands, so that when you’ve done the experimentation at one, you know what to ask for at the next. ETA I have seen this for sizes—there’s an applet at numerous sites that asks your height weight, age, and then asks what sizes have fit you at other designers. Idk what the data behind it is. chewyspaghetti on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218023 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 14:59:47 +0000 chewyspaghetti 2218023@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Synne, I never worked in fashion. I studied it, and discovered that I had no aptitude for the necessary technical skills (such as pattern grading). I worked in the wardrobe department at Disneyland for a few years, but not designing or sewing- I dressed some shows and parades and handed out the uniforms for people working in the park. Staysfit- many times the fit model ends up being someone the designer was already working with- a supportive friend who was always willing to try on and model items in progress, a "muse", or a favorite model they had worked with before. I'm sure there must be information and companies who deal specifically with fit models now. Janet- that's why I like Old Navy so much- I know it's going to fit. I hope that doesn't change. Rachylou- that brings back such horrible memories lol I hated that class! Anonymous on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218021 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 14:55:42 +0000 Anonymous 2218021@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Yes . This is how we did it , back in the day . There are now AutoCAD programs to direct cutters instead of cardboard pattern pieces . I spent an entire semester learning how to do this - and even back then we were writing papers and doing research projects on the difficulties of / lack of / limits of standard sizing in manufacturing . The frustration and outrage isn’t exactly new Chewy- sounds like you and I have similar backgrounds ? Carla on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218020 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 14:55:18 +0000 Carla 2218020@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Some places do try to account for variety in builds by providing different fits.  A jeans line I liked had the Mia, Hanna, and Suki fit - each with different waist, hip, rise configurations.  BR has Ryan, Logan, and Avery fit trousers, and Riley and Dillon fit shirts.  Levi’s does a whole series of number codes for different fits. I believe Boden does fit families as well.  <div> </div><div>Even if a brand made clothes that fit my body perfectly, I don’t think I would buy my entire allotment of garments from them.  Ralph Lauren fits me very well, but the clothes aren’t always my aesthetic.   <div> </div><div> </div></div> Stagiaire Fash on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218014 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 14:27:54 +0000 Stagiaire Fash 2218014@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Rachylou, 32 base fits—wow! You are correct, of course, that actual variety is infinite, so I guess we just have to wait for clothing made from body scans to fit us perfectly. In the meantime, though, wouldn’t it be awesome to see those different base fits be general knowledge, openly discussed and announced up-front by makers, so people could go right to the ones that work for them? Anonymous on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218012 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 14:22:12 +0000 Anonymous 2218012@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ repeating Janet's entire second comment verbatim Helena on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2218000 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 13:26:31 +0000 Helena 2218000@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ This is so interesting ... I've never given much thought to the technicalities behind how clothing is made to different sizes. Nodding with everything Janet said ... It isn't reasonable to expect a single brand to be able to cater to every combination of height, size, and shape (and aren't tailors glad!) ... But the more retailers that put forth the effort, the more we all have an opportunity to discover a "go to" brand or two that works well for us. Good for business too, as they have the opportunity to find and service a niche ... Love a good win-win scenario! Such fascinating discussion, thanks CS for sharing! rachylou on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2217998 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 13:15:33 +0000 rachylou 2217998@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Ok. I’d never heard of such a mechanical tool. So I googled it to see what it looked like and then had to watch a video of it in action because I really could not imagine, lol! It’s kind of like calipers, isn’t it. <a href="https://vimeo.com/83953396" rel="nofollow">https://vimeo.com/83953396</a> I once went into the shop of a local clothing designer. She said there were something like 32 standard ‘base fits.’ As a maker, you would choose something maybe like 3, because that’s a pretty overwhelming number. And of course the variation of real bodies is infinite. Stagiaire Fash on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2217990 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 12:34:17 +0000 Stagiaire Fash 2217990@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Some might find brand diversity exciting & fun. It can also be daunting & overwhelming. Some kind of indicators of what brands use what shape fit models could provide a map. Finding makers who design for your body type is trial & error/word of mouth. I’d much rather have a sizing system that codified it. Then a brand could say clearly what proportions they design for, taking the guesswork out of it. Some might design for diversity, producing a bunch of versions. Others might focus on fit models with x feature (the same one) at every size. But at least consumers could know what they were getting. I think a size system that took proportions into account would take a lot of the anxiety out of trying on clothes. Instead of trying on heaps of jeans and despairing that you couldn’t pull any all the way up because the calves are too narrow, you could go straight to the ones with your proportions in mind. Janet on "Pattern Grading" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/pattern-grading#post-2217989 Sat, 21 Aug 2021 12:20:36 +0000 Janet 2217989@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ All of this is evidence for why there needs to be a thriving market of a variety of independent clothing designers and manufacturers. It’s an argument for more brand diversity and supporting smaller and regional/local designers who work for your individual body and style. Each designer has their own design perspective, ideal clientele, and body types that their designs particularly suit. It’s too much to expect a single brand like Old Navy (even though they are a large brand with the resources and infrastructure to have a wider manufacturing scope) to do it all and fit all shapes and sizes, at least when it comes to clothing that has any degree of tailoring. So I think it’s impressive when these brands make the attempt. I remember first learning about fit models way back decades ago, and it clicked into place why some brands never work for me, no matter my size. A designer like Ted Baker, for example, clearly uses a fit model with a long torso. Once I figured that out, I never bothered trying on their dresses again, LOL. Once I find a maker who seems to get my body type (for instance, Anthro’s Pilcro line for jeans and pants) , I’m generally a loyal customer.