https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Wed, 03 Jun 2026 11:34:17 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions/page/2#post-644482 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:48:35 +0000 teeandcee 644482@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I try to dress in a non-revealing way. Most of my problems lie with cleavage. I loved those offbeat modest outfits. </p> <p>I live in an area where there are Amish, Mennonites, Muslims, religious headcoverers, and Pentecostals (those of the giant hairdos), so I see a lot of different interpretations of religious modesty and find it very interesting. </p> <p>I'm also appreciative of the fact that I'm not compelled to cover up to such an extent during the summer. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644481 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:47:50 +0000 Anonymous 644481@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I feel like my style is occasion appropriate. If I'm on a romantic date with my husband, I might not be exactly "modest," but I'm not going to scare anyone, either! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644477 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:44:49 +0000 MsMary 644477@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Interesting thread! I think that for my age my style is neither particularly modest nor particularly conservative, although it has certain elements of both. I guess I shoot for "reasonably dignified!" LOL </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644448 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 20:04:11 +0000 Anonymous 644448@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Well said, Echo.</p> <p>This thread reminded me of something that happened when my DH and I visited his cousins in Nicaragua last year. One of his cousins told me she won't wear capri pants because down there, women aren't supposed to show their legs. She said young girls and teens can wear them, but not older woman (meaning her age, which is around 50). I thought that was bazarre. Also, my DH's younger sister won't wear certain clothes because she thinks she's too old to wear them. The clothing in question are what I consider to be mainstream looks for all women, and not the least bit restricted to young women in their 20s. So I guess dressing a certain way is all a matter of upbringing and perception. My SIL thinks of herself as old, even though she's a good 4 years younger than I, and she acts and dresses accordingly. I think of myself as young. While I don't try to compete with women in their 20s and certainly don't want to dress the way they do, I do feel young at heart and try to wear updated fashions that I think I can get away with due to the fact that so many people say I look like I'm in my 30s. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644423 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 19:19:27 +0000 Echo 644423@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Mander makes an excellent point about the hyper-sexualized fashion recently, and how many women are dressing in a less revealing manner simply as a backlash. The clothing for little girls is obscene, and don't even get me started on Halowe'en costumes, both for adults and little girls. </p> <p>Many people have mentioned that modest dress is often done for the sake of men or men's perceptions, which offends a feminist sensibility. But many women take it to the other extreme and see themselves as only having value when they are sexually attractive to men. American culture is so focused on youth and sex appeal that many people go to extremes to preserve youth and to look "sexy". IMO, this is no more freeing or liberating to women than the expectation of modest dress. It is only when women dress for themselves and who they are and who they want to be that equality can flourish. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644269 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 16:09:22 +0000 Meredith1953 644269@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Wow! I have been loving this whole conversation. Modesty means so many different things to individuals. I have always just thought of it as a quiet and unassuming way of dressing and behaving. Interesting to hear all the different ways it can be interpreted. I consider myself a modest and somewhat conservative dresser. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644191 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:34:35 +0000 Aziraphale 644191@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think what most of us are trying to get at here is that "modest" and "not revealing" are not exactly the same thing. </p> <p>What Jenava says is true, I think, and that's why I have a reflexive dislike of the whole concept of modest dressing. The idea of dressing myself almost exclusively with the male eye in mind, whether the goal is to deflect that attention or draw it (in a sexual way), goes against my feminist principles. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644186 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:29:18 +0000 Anonymous 644186@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Politically, I'm Independent. I've always considered myself to be rather conservative, but not nearly as conservative as some. I've always been what I describe as moderate. I don't like extreme anything, and I think my clothing style reflects that. I probably do dress modestly in the sense that I don't feel comfortable showing cleavage or too much leg or whatever. I do want to look attractive; just not overtly sexy so as to draw the wrong type of attention to myself. I don't think I have to cover most of my body up to feel or look modestly dressed, though, and I dare say that those who do probably call more attention to themselves when they dress extremely modestly than they would if they chose to wear mainstream attire that is considered by most people in our modern society to be modest. I am certainly not going to tell others what to wear or what not to wear, but I think the term "modest" means different things to different people. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644172 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 14:22:08 +0000 rachylou 644172@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>The difference between modest and conservative, I think, is that conservative dressing isn't necessarily designed to deflect attention. The conservative banker's pinstripe, if you ask me, does the opposite of tone a person's presence down. Walking into a room full of suits is like a whack to the head. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644150 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:59:02 +0000 mrseccentric 644150@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Vildy, that is just priceless! You're always coming at things from an unexpected angle and i love it!</p> <p>I grew up in a town with a variety of more fundamentalist religions which all encouraged modest dressing among the women and girls. Interestingly, each variety had different rules for modest dressing: hair could be cut or no, you could wear pants or no, you could wear skirts with pantyhose or no, heel heights all different specs, and so on. Frankly, it all started to seem pretty arbitrary.</p> <p>I dressed fairly modestly as a girl and into my twenties mostly to discourage unwanted male attention, because i sunburn quite easily, and because a lot of my style references tend towards a more modest look (victoriana, the 1940's and so on). I don't generally care how most people dress, but do think it's common courtesy to keep at least something covered up. I had a boss who used to wear little gym shorts with no undies, yeah just what everyone wants to see (he was the owner, no going to HR about that). And i saw enough tattoos over the coccyx in the 1990's to last me three lifetimes! But to me that's just about TMI, it's not offending my core being or anything.</p> <p>I still tend to cover up - i got in the habit, it works better with my personal style, i still burn easily. The funny thing is that i've spent a fair amount of time as a patient in hospitals, going to doc visits and getting various tests where you have to disrobe and so on. You really become inured to your own nakedness, so i have to watch it at times to avoid flashing people on the street or in a park when i'm trying to adjust clothing or talking to someone about a bug bite or whatever. It seems to be a little shocking given how i dress.</p> <p>FWIW, i have found my blog on a number of 'modest dressing' blogrolls. steph </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644135 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:44:14 +0000 KikiG 644135@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>What an interesting conversation!</p> <p>Where I live, there is a large, highly identifiable Protestent group who all attend the same, perfectly enormous church. The men dress like ordinary men, but the women have long hair in elaborate updos (go to YouTube and search for "Apostolic hair" for some fascinating instruction in this area) they always, always wear dresses, and obey certain other grooming and modesty rules. Elbows don't show, for example, and I don't think knees are supposed to. They don't watch TV, mainly they go to church. And boy oh boy, do they ever dress up to go to church!</p> <p>As a major people watcher, it is very interesting to me to identify the "hip and trendy" younger women within the group. As a garage sale shopper, let me tell you, those are some terrific garage sales for clothing items!!! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644096 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 13:06:34 +0000 Vildy 644096@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>hmm, you've given me food for thought here. I would have previously used the term<br /> "modest" but reading through these responses, I see it doesn't fit. I'm not really conservative or traditional and had used "modest" to describe what is better said as<br /> "not revealing." The reason is that I have, sadly, no spiritual component at all to it, no<br /> elevating principles or values. On the contrary, in my case it's out of arrogance and a refusal to just put it on display or "give it away." Ya gotta work for it. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644042 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 11:28:30 +0000 ManidipaM 644042@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Oh, great point vs 'hypersexualized' clothing, Mander! It gets my goat every time I get into a departmental store where the boys' clothes are sporty and somehow 'normally' youthful, and the girls' are all Barbie-ish and miniature bimboesque with flirty hemlines, 'cute' butt ornamentation on pants, keyholes in front and back necklines, a bunch of spaghetti straps and straplessness --- all of which would be fine if they were not cut as downsized versions of adult and older teen clothing (some of the again 'cute' slogans, or the ruching in the centre bodice for a six-year-old's nonexistent bosom etc, sweetheart necklines and angled bodice lines on a 10-year-old... so NOT the confident counterpart of the boys' clothes)! </p> <p>(Yes, gone off on a tangent... but it does mean I like the adult fashion being mimicked here less for this very reason sometimes!) </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644033 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:59:06 +0000 Mander 644033@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think there's modest in the conventional sense of not being flashy or overtly sexy, and then there's modest with specific religious meanings. I think I'm fairly modest in the normal sense of the word in that I'm uncomfortable showing too much skin and I think excessively skimpy and sexualized clothes are pretty tasteless (we're talking ultra-mini skirts, breasts practically hanging out, super sky-high stilettos, exposed thong underwear, etc.). But I don't have a moral issue with people dressing ultra-sexy if they want to, and I do sometimes try to dress in a sexy way myself. I have no problem with cleavage. </p> <p>Modesty as a religious or quasi-religious concept is an interesting development. I am uncomfortable with the element that wants to keep women hidden except to display their bodies to men, because of the declining feminism that Manidipa mentioned. But on the other hand, I think there are a lot of women who have adopted modesty as a reaction against hyper-sexualized fashion, and advertising in which women are presented solely as sexual objects. I can support this view, because although women *should* be able to wear whatever the heck they want and still be taken seriously, the reality is that this is not so. Manner of dress is a powerful communication tool and the message can be manipulated by those who design and manufacture clothing. The "modesty" movement can be seen as deliberately challenging this manipulation by choosing to alter the way a garment is worn (filling in the neckline, wearing it loose, layering, etc.). </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-644028 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 10:32:08 +0000 fashionista 644028@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I couldnot agree more ManidipaM.<br /> That's the exact case here where security personnels, society and even the victim's relatives say that short dresses was the ultimate lead to her rape.<br /> So maybe dressing modestly and coservatively is our compulsion!!!! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643980 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 07:54:29 +0000 ManidipaM 643980@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>In a sense I've dealt with Jenava's sort of upbringing and environment all my life, and in some milieus I inhabit, we seem to be going *backwards* as far as feminism goes, unfortunately.</p> <p>I can't say I'm either modest or conservative in my leanings, and I usually enjoy throwing out a light challenge to the environmental norms --- BUT I actually do end up dressing a lot more modestly and conservatively than many others in my environment who can rely on a certain socio-economic advantage. For me, not enjoying those advantages or consciously opting out (more public transport and shank's mare, less private car and I don't drive anyway), part of the compromise is to do with safety --- my style of work and living (often alone at home, often on the road alone, sometimes in male-dominated spaces both public and semi-private) mean I'd rather not make my daily life riskier or more unpleasant than I can help. The police force in our capital, for example, demonstrably believes that women encourage 'attentions' through dress here, and 'rape' is rarely a 'real thing'. </p> <p>I also don't dress sexy for all and sundry as a preference; when I do, it is... uh... more targeted towards specific individuals, I guess? (even if sometimes that individual is myself! like with the undergarments I sometimes choose and deliberately do NOT put on show). </p> <p>Social and legal security and sanction are not so great here yet, except in small and specific circles, if you dress immodestly (and yeah, even when you don't, but 'immodesty' gets worse treatment still). You DO see those who dress with less supposed 'modesty' around me because they can get away with it in lifestyles where they are usually ensconced in the safety of a private vehicle; when in public spaces, they are often in a more 'upmarket' environment where security may be tighter (though even that is very gendered and not always supportive, so I personally find the wisdom of their choice questionable --- and no, they aren't usually doing it to challenge the norms but often from a mistaken belief of being safer where the disadvantaged demographics are less dominant or numerous).</p> <p>Me, I'm not often seen in plunging necklines, sheer fabrications that will show much of my undergarments (though I do layer camisoles or slips and sheers regularly), shorter hemlines (anything above the knee is rare on me, excepting the occasional pair of shorts --- but even those don't go beyond my immediate neighbourhood, not even so far as the supermarket or mall, on the milk run or grocer). I'll wear more body-skimming silhouettes at times and often leave off the scarves so popular with us culturally as to be normative (over a maxi or jeans even!), so I'm not exactly 'modest' in the traditional sense, though. It's my 'comfort zone' between giving in to social pressures and being enough of a feminist to challenge them. (Heck, I went to a college where jeans were upsetting the senior boys, and the girls in my freshman and sophomore years dutifully came by to tell me so, to explain how it hurt them to hear me spoken of so and to request that I refrain from being quite so 'mod' at school!)</p> <p>But it depends where I am or where I'm going, too. I'm unusual in not wearing boy-leg or skirted swimsuits at public pools here. I do wear strappy sundresses when I travel abroad or when at the more tourist-friendly beaches. </p> <p>So it's subjective as well as relative. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643970 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:34:19 +0000 fashionista 643970@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Dressing modestly and conservatively- now that depends on people's perception and preference and geographical locations<br /> I may dress modestly but I may not be conservative and vice-versa. Our country has a conservative mindset but we do not dress conservatively like in sarees or salwar kurtis. But we do dress modestly to avoid wolf whistles and unwanted remarks and attention. We also dress modestly because we are comfortable in this style. Skirts above knees, cleavage shows, navel shows are not the aim for our dressing, we just want to be modest-modern.<br /> I may be wearing floral pattern jeans and nice sleeved tees, that's modest but not conservative. What you wear as modest- knee length skirts at workplace is considered not appropirate at work at our country due to some leg skin showing and some fancy outfit options for us. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643962 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 06:18:34 +0000 Jenava 643962@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I actually grew up in a church where "modest" dressing was expected. That included having long uncut hair (usually pinned up or at least in a ponytail, and no bangs), and no jewelry or makeup.</p> <p>The problem I have with it is that like others have pointed out, it defines itself by a lack of sexuality- which means you first have to acknowledge and have an understanding of what sexy means, which kind of goes against the whole point, right? And it means you're dressing for men's viewing (or not), but either way, the man is the frame of reference. I have a big problem with that. Others might not agree, but that's my experience and opinion, anyway! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643926 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 04:46:53 +0000 catgirl 643926@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I feel I dress modestly. I don't dress in tight clothing, I don't show lots of leg or cleavage in general, and I don't wear anything transparent. OTOH, I don't dress conservatively either. Conservative and modest are not synonyms in fashion! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643906 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 04:12:59 +0000 christieanne 643906@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I stumbled on the whole modest dressing community and trend through a link on pinterest and read some blogs and forums one day (yes, I was home kind of bored lol) and there seems to be some women who do so for religious reasons ( cross religions - I was impressed on one of the forum that all these women of very different religions didn't have those discussions but were helping each other find long skirts!) to just wanting to preserve viewing of their bodies for a husband. Interesting. </p> <p>I kind of get that - I mean DH and I have definitely discussed friends who seem to "flaunt it" and how awkward that would seem for the spouse. Or maybe the spouse likes it. But for me it would be weird. I don't like to show cleavage but I have an ample bosom and no amount of hiding will cover that up (other than a puffer coat). I could see doing an above knee skirt if I thought I had the legs for it. </p> <p>I kind of have a live and let live philosophy these days really. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643898 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 03:57:46 +0000 lyn* 643898@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I suppose I am a modest dresser, but mostly because of my profession... It is kind of hard to take someone seriously if they are young and have cleavage hanging out all over! </p> <p>I have recently started to wear shorter skirts, but I generally restrict this to weekends! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643891 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 03:49:50 +0000 velvetychocolate 643891@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think elisabeth has nailed it - trying to dress modestly is more about a deliberate intent to not look sexy. She's 100% right that you can be conservative and still look 'sexy', even without being overly revealing about your clothing choices. </p> <p>As for myself, my own somewhat modest clothing choices stem from a desire to be comfortable and empowered in any situation. I don't want to be uncomfortable in a too-short skirt, and I don't want to be worrying if my bra strap is showing or what have you. If I have to take off running, or lean down on the ground, I don't want to worry about my clothes, so in this respect, anything that I wear that is 'modest' is actually more about feeling like I can do anything, without feeling awkward. To me, modest dressing is about empowerment, rather than stifling any 'sexiness' or what have you. </p> <p>I can't run like the wind in super high heels, I can't feel relaxed if I'm worrying that a tank top's straps are going to reveal too much of my bra, and the last thing I want is to feel constrained by a too-short skirt. </p> <p>Having said that though, I reserve the right to be and look as sexy as I want to. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643876 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 03:26:50 +0000 Aziraphale 643876@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>To me, "modest" dress means the opposite of "deliberately sexy". So no, I'm not a modest dresser, although most days I'm not going for sexy, either. </p> <p>Conservative is a whole separate category to me. It implies a timelessness, and involves classic pieces such as well-cut blazers, crisp collared shirts, subdued classic jewellery, neutral colours, and so on. A woman can be a conservative dresser and still come off as sexy as hell, especially if she's dressed for an evening out with her nice high heels and classy cocktail dress. A modest dresser, to me, implies some sort of desire to not appear sexy. And yes, there are often religious overtones to that. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643856 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 02:54:16 +0000 cheryl 643856@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I'm definitely not conservative. Modest, i'm not sure how modest I am either. I wear shorts, i show a bit of cleavage now and again but not too much. I don't have a problem with people who dress either way, if you've got it flaunt it, and if you don't want anything showing thats cool too. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643855 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 02:49:01 +0000 Echo 643855@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I agree that "modest" can have many different definitions, depending on religious group, area of the country or just personal comfort levels. It can range from not showing cleavage or wearing short skirts all the way to not showing the shoulders or arms or even the ankles. Indeed, the most conservative religious groups don't allow women to show their hair or face.</p> <p>I am not at all religious or conservative, but I do have three small children and spend a lot of time involved in their activities or at school. It kind of goes without saying that very high heels, skirts above the knee, cleavage, lots of bare skin or very tight clothing just isn't appropriate. I love the feeling when I am wearing a twirly midi-skirt where I can comfortably bend, squat, sit on the floor and have freedom of movement without fear of accidental exposure. </p> <p>I also live in a fairly socially conservative area of the country (where I really don't fit in at all), and most people here are more interested in function than fashion. I can get away with a lot more in the "fashion" arena if I don't go overboard with the sexy or exposed aspect of things. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643835 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 02:10:55 +0000 modgrl 643835@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I read this petite blog. <a href="http://laviepetite.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://laviepetite.blogspot.com/</a><br /> The author is Mormon and dresses modestly. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643812 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:43:36 +0000 Jaime 643812@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Well where I live dressing modestly has very exact definitions and people identify themselves by how they dress. Within the orthodox community there are many levels of modesty from covering hair, elbows, and knees to covering just one of these parts regularly and letting the rest hang out. Literally. Among the non-modest dressers, conservative is not the norm - quite the opposite. I regularly wear sleeveless tops, low necklines (but no cleavage), and fitted jeans and shorts, but think of myself as a fairly conservative dresser by local standards - yet I definitely don't make the grade for modesty by most religious scales. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643799 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:37:24 +0000 nicoleb 643799@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Here's a flickr group you might be interested in called <a href="http://www.flickr.com/groups/offbeatmodestdress/">Offbeat Modest Dress</a> . They've asked for my pictures a couple of times (mostly winter looks i believe, heh) but obviously not all. </p> <p>I don't like to be overtly sexy but i do like to be flirty. I'm youngish and i figure i should do it while i still can? </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643795 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:31:45 +0000 velvetychocolate 643795@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I've always dressed somewhat modestly, just for my own comfort and style, and not for any particular reason other than that. </p> <p>Thing is? I've recently moved to an area (due to husband's job situation) where 'dressing modestly' seems to be fairly popular, and I feel kind of weird about it, to be honest. I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't purposely go looking for clothing companies or designers that specialized in 'modest' clothing, and in fact - I tend to avoid these companies for some reason. Something about the whole concept makes me feel a bit squeamish (specially designed "modest" clothing, I mean), even though I dress fairly modestly to begin with. </p> <p>On the other hand, I guess I feel the same way about retailers/companies that suggest that you need to dress more 'sexy' too. </p> <p>Come to think of it - I'd rather just shop somewhere where I can pick and choose. If someone wants to dress a bit more 'sexy' than I do, I can appreciate that look, and likewise, if someone chooses things that are a bit more modest - I can appreciate those looks too. I guess I have trouble with companies that want to box you in to a certain ideal or look, especially those that want to put some sort of 'criteria' on either sexy enough or modest enough. ACK! I don't like those kind of judgements, to be honest. If a retailer or designer wants to say that only a certain size bust and super long hair is the 'ideal' and another suggests that you must be totally buttoned up to be "ok"....</p> <p>I'm outta here! I don't want to shop at places like that. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/modest-fashions#post-643763 Tue, 12 Jun 2012 01:02:17 +0000 marianna 643763@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I dress modestly but I am not conservative. I just feel more comfortable when I am dressed modestly. For me that means no skirts or shorts above the knee, no exposed cleavage, no exposed bra straps, etc. None of this stems from any sort of religious beliefs for me... I just prefer the aesthetic of modesty if that makes any sense. </p>