YouLookFab Forum » Topic: "Marked" dressing

YouLookFab Forum » Topic: "Marked" dressing https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Tue, 07 Apr 2026 10:28:41 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php rachylou on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155928 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 20:16:43 +0000 rachylou 1155928@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Hate to say it, but I feel I know why people hate sexy dress. You don't have to wave a flag that you're gonna be messy, but people often do. And those kinds of messes are big and tortuous for everyone else. It's cringe-worthy. ETA: also, I believe if John Lennon and Paul McCartney had a son, it would be Daniel Radcliffe. Suz on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155914 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 19:53:01 +0000 Suz 1155914@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Denise, I agree with that assessment. And another place the woman will be judged particularly harshly is in academia!! I somehow have a feeling it's even more of a faux pas to dress in an overtly "sexy" way there than it might be in a business setting. (I could be wrong about that, though).  CocoLion on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155910 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 19:48:01 +0000 CocoLion 1155910@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thanks for the link Jacky and the great conversation it has sparked! I think women are aware of being marked from an early age.  (Although we don't express it that way -- the author's description of this phenomenon comes from the perspective of being a linguist.)  That's why we put a lot of effort into "appropriate" dressing for different occasions, locales, and age. In her description of the three academic women, she describes one woman's style as telecasting more sexual availability.  I wonder how other women, not just men, view the judgement of such a woman.  More than being fashion forward or even fashion wacky, I think the harshest judgment comes to a woman whose style is sexy.  And at no time is it harsher than when she is outside of the age appropriate time or occasion for sexy dress.  For example, a young teen would be judged harshly, just as a woman over 50.  A woman aged 18-34 at a club, not judged as harshly. Jacky on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155622 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 07:00:28 +0000 Jacky 1155622@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ E - Thanks so much for the recommendations! The TED talk was fascinating, and I'm glad that I can now add the "man box" to my arsenal of words to use in these sorts of discussions. rachylou - Wow, that's too funny! Greyscale - Oof, that's really frustrating about the glasses. I hadn't realized that that shape now evokes Harry Potter, but I guess that's not too surprising. Your point about "gender performativity" is spot on. I feel like this is a constant struggle in a lot of my social group. Greyscale on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155616 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 06:31:52 +0000 Greyscale 1155616@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I have so many thoughts on this thread that I haven't organized enough to post yet. But for now, a few things: 1. Rachylou, as always your comments are hilariously insightful. My guy is a science professor, and indeed, in the late 90s (college) he bought little round wire glasses. At the time they evoked Lennon; since then the cultural reference point has shifted to Harry Potter, much to his frustration. We just went to the optometrist today to look for replacements, since the old ones are near dead. I love the look on him, so I hope he finds something similar. 2. "Gender performativity" is another phrase that pops into mind in this context. Many of my friends are transgender women; many others are women in science or software who grew up uncomfortable with traditional femininity. And so clothing choices and gender presentation and "girl skills" are all very actively on our minds, sometimes quite uncomfortably, rather than being part of the comfortable unexamined background as they are for many women. 3. My moniker in various places is a variant of Monochrome Chameleon because I spent much of my life overly concerned about how to dress to fit in with whichever of my many social crowds I was running with at the time. I'm glad I have a more central sense of my own style now but I still think a lot about this. I guess since I over-analyze everything under the sun, that shouldn't surprise me. rachylou on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155601 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 06:11:24 +0000 rachylou 1155601@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Ok. Now I have to tell y'all about markers, my first visit to the Midwest, and coming from CA. I got off the plane and said "Wow! So many out gay people! And here they always say..." Yes, well. What I'd taken for a "gay marker" was actually just "Midwestern" - but the only people I'd been meeting from the Midwest happened to be gay. In my defense, I was 14... E on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155511 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 03:55:09 +0000 E 1155511@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Jackie, that's so interesting re: your experiences with being misgendered.  I do think it's a shame about the cardigans, but I can see why they'd be associated with hipster men. The author is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't quite track him or the book title down right now. It's going to drive me nuts: when I remember it I'll pm you. I googled it, though, and discovered there's a TED talk too about the man box that I watched by a different guy, so maybe that's where I first heard about it. Whoops! Here's that link: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_porter_a_call_to_men.html">http://www.ted.com/talks/tony_.....o_men.html</a> That concept has made it much easier to talk about patriarchy with the men in my life! Another book you might be interested is Covering by Kenji Yoshino, which takes a look at the intersection of race and sexuality (and a bit about gender towards the end) as it relates to how minorities need to act/appear in the professional US. Not essentially focused on dress though! ETA: Found the author I was thinking of! It's Michael Kimmel. :) Jacky on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155498 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 03:33:18 +0000 Jacky 1155498@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Oops, crossposted with E while I was composing my long response. Jacky on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155497 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 03:32:38 +0000 Jacky 1155497@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ rachylou - Thanks for sharing! Now to see if I can spot academics based on your descriptions ... E - Ooh, the books you mentioned sound really interesting! I'll have to check them out. And it is such a shame about men and cardigans - around here, the cardigan marks men pretty strongly as "hipsters," which many people I know seek to avoid being viewed as. So sad though, since hipsters have such good style! Vicki - Can you describe some of the outfits you've worn that you think are unmarked? I'm curious what they're like. DonnaF - You're right that the conversation has been very hetero-centric. I know a number of people who are genderqueer though who use different clothing markers to indicate which gender they present as and wish to be referred to as (or the fact that it's not so simple as being binary!). I've personally never struggled much with my gender classification, but since my friend asked me whether or not I face trouble for being femme, I've started thinking a lot more about my gender presentation. I feel sometimes like I'm unmarked when I'm misgendered (since I look like an unremarkable college male) but the same outfit becomes a real marker when someone realizes that I'm female. E on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155481 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 03:15:24 +0000 E 1155481@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Rachy, that doesn't surprise me, but I'd also want to see what the parameters of the study were, if that makes sense. lol re: cardigans and sheep vs buffalo. Vicki, I'm curious: what would an unmarked outfit look like to you? I haven't figured out yet what an unmarked outfit would look like on me, or if I could even dress in an unmarked way. Perhaps jeans & a tee shirt? Donna, I mentioned that sexuality has its own markers in my original post, but I probably should have expanded on them. I think we were talking about hetero-centric ideas, because that's what the article seemed to reference. But thanks for pointing that out, and how gender binaries are quite exclusionary too! DonnaF on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155436 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 02:22:25 +0000 DonnaF 1155436@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Just noting that the discussion here strikes me as rather hetero-centric.  (Note that I live in the SF Bay Area where closets are small if nonexistent.)  In my world, I see definite clothing markers for sexual orientation and gender identification -- or not, for those who are gender queer. Vicki on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155363 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 00:27:48 +0000 Vicki 1155363@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Great article you posted, Jacky, and I agree with Diana that inherently we have this desire to mark ourselves and there is this range or continuum when we want to turn it up or down.  I do find that if I am unmarked, I feel somewhat less visible.  But, it's a matter of choice. rachylou on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155358 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 00:25:17 +0000 rachylou 1155358@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Hehe. Well, I'm a creationist myself. Hehe. So, but I don't know about the evolution of it all, but same profile pic with $30K salary v. $100K salary posted - and women definitely rate "the richer man" as better looking. Health and vitality is definitely a factor in mate selection, so to speak, and I think it's an interesting question as to what's given more weight depending on the state of society. What a thought! I'm hungry. Is the guy with the sheep or the guy who can hunt down a buffalo more attractive? But oh! The cardigan! Men fight the cardigan like women fight the bra. E on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155352 Sun, 02 Feb 2014 00:05:36 +0000 E 1155352@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ LOL re: undershirts and spray starch! Clearly I'm not analysing the men I see closely enough. ;) I'm not big on evolutionary psychology, so I tend to read those studies with skepticism: I suspect if you stripped away the systemic differences between men and women, men's attractiveness would suddenly have a lot more to do with their physical appearance than their wealth and status. (I think you're already starting to see that in the younger crop of Hollywood actors and how much more pressure they're under to have sculpted, muscular bodies than their predecessors had.) But in our current society, you're right! And the traditional markers of masculine wealth, such as a suit in beautiful wool that drapes just so and is perfectly tailored, also happen to flatter the male form immensely. A man doesn't need to wear spanx under his formal wear! No unforgiving satin for him. hehe To be fair, they are at a disadvantage in sweaters though: I know several men who won't wear sweaters despite their warmth and cosiness because they feel it's too clingy to their less than six-pack midsections. But none of them have bad bodies, and I'm sure they'd all look wonderful in sweaters. And just think of how cardigans in men have strong markers, while cardigans on women are more neutral. And cardigans are so helpful! I'd cry if they were taken away from me. (I'm really enjoying reading everyone's differing opinions on this thread, so I hope I'm not coming off as too argumentative. Just throwing my own views into the pot, but that doesn't mean I'm dismissing everyone else's!) rachylou on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155341 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 23:38:37 +0000 rachylou 1155341@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ E - Your reflections made me think of something: wealth and status go hand-in-hand with sexual attractiveness for men. Lots of studies on this. Also, undershirts are a signal of how prudish a man is, as well as spray starch. Suz on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155338 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 23:32:21 +0000 Suz 1155338@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Jacky, that's a good question. I know Caro refers to this at times. She has felt constrained by her environment and role to dress in a way that felt inauthentic and was working to find a way that would allow her to blend in without feeling unhappy.  I'm not sure I ever have been in a situation where I couldn't wear some version of "me"  -- but that's probably because I do like a lot of classics, which can veer in various directions. Pure luck maybe. Or maybe the variety of the situations I've found myself in helped to influence that love of modern classics. Hmmm.  E on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155337 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 23:31:05 +0000 E 1155337@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Ugh, I hate that I have to dress for protection on occasion, whether it's an option or not. :/ But that is a different discussion! I understand than men have markers too, but they don't have gender markers, so that's one less category for them to worry about than women imho. For instance, no one will assume a man is a prude based on his outfit. They might assume he's poor, or not intelligent, but they can assume that about a woman too. I do find the idea that men's clothing is more about displaying wealth & status interesting. I wonder if this has to do with career fields, because I imagine high flying women executives and lawyers would need to show the same attention to quality and ability to pay for it. No? But those are fields traditionally associated with men. None of my good guy friends are in such professions, so they definitely don't have the closet dilemmas some of you have described. Society is so fascinating! I just finished reading Luella's Guide to British Style, which had a long chapter on class and dressing, which was essentially an exploration of such markers (on both men and women). It made for an interesting, thought-provoking read, although of course the book was written with a light touch. Suz also makes an excellent point about women becoming less 'marked' as time moves on, and they become more visible in certain fields. I love that there is now a female academic uniform where she lives! Having read Academichic, and being a bit of a bookworm myself, I'm always curious about where style and academia/intellectual pursuits collide. Also, it is a shame that men can't experiment as much! We should all overturn patriarchy together, so that men don't have to be in their tiny 'man box' anymore (I got this concept from a male feminist who's written a couple good books, but his name isn't springing to mind right now). And I loved Diana's science stuff! I read a really neat book about the X chromosome once (with the unfortunate title of The X in Sex) that made me appreciate calico cats in a whole new light. rachylou on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing/page/2#post-1155335 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 23:26:26 +0000 rachylou 1155335@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Another thought: You don't have to wear your markers, of course. The question is, what happens when you don't? Also re. academics: Spectacle frames. The vogue changes, but it changes in waves. In the '90s there was an abundance of little round wire John Lennon's. I think now they're doing "heavier" frames. Those with children might be wearing architect's frames. rachylou on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1155334 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 23:22:27 +0000 rachylou 1155334@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I wish I could post some pictures of people I know, but they'd kill me and be resentful. Lol. The female academic is much like the male academic, which I don't suppose is interesting. A reliance on browns, tweeds, oxford cloth, lace-up shoes. Hair *just* this side of unruly and too long. Always something a little askew (from rushing to and from classes). An imperfect understanding of how to tuck one's shirt in and refusal to use spray starch. And despite all this, still a certain formality and neatness, if not polish or precision. I suppose the difference is, a woman may also wear a brown straight skirt (women always have more options, n'est-ce pas?). And maybe a female academic (even those in the sciences) will also get to don a scarf or piece of jewelry that shows something of her knowledge and familiarity with far-off cultures. Male academics I don't suppose have to rely more on decor: A Navajo rug, a pre-Columbian statue. That sort of thing. Haha. Basically, a female academic is a mussed version of the Liberal Protestant Female Minister in brown, and her cultural artifacts (earrings) are a bit bolder (no need to be calming really). Oh hahaha. One of my neighbors is moving away to my neighborhood of origin. A doctoral candidate. This brings me to the homes of academics. If only I could be there to witness the transformation of her home decor. The leather couch will disappear one day. An upright piano will appear in the dining room. A Henry Evans print in the front hall. Old pedal Singer in the living room. And she too will subsist on Cheese and Ice Cream for the whole of Decembers from henceforth (the Germanic influence). She could get another leather couch, but it will have to come from Scandinavian Designs. Jacky on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1155289 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 21:40:09 +0000 Jacky 1155289@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Mo - Oh, that's spot on. I wish I had your confidence in ignoring what other people might think! Suz - That's a good point about always staying true to yourself. Do you ever run into situations (or worry about them, I guess) where you don't feel like a version of yourself works? That's something I've worried a lot about as I end up at more formal occasions that involve my family. K. - I've definitely had commentary from men in my industry about departing from the standard industry markers before. It can be very frustrating! Gigi - I definitely agree that it's not always a bad thing, although I do think it's sad that we all understand what it's like to need to dress for "protection" sometimes. But the societal attitude that women are somehow public property is definitely a different discussion. I have a number of male friends who complain that men's fashion is too boring and how they wish they could wear all the pretty things that women wear - you're absolutely right that we need male clothing revolution! rachylou - I'm curious, what is the female academic marker? Not being an academic myself, that world seems very interesting and mysterious to me rachylou on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1155011 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 15:45:04 +0000 rachylou 1155011@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ "They could not choose the "female academic" marker -- because it just didn't exist." Suz, I'm not sure I understand - in that female academics existed and had markers to go with in my mind. And by Deborah Tannen's time, Women's Studies departments had certainly and firmly been ensconced all across the U.S. at least. Also, well, in the world of preppies, "slightly rumpled" is probably the big marker for both men and women re. being an academic. ETA: I suppose I should note in addition to being preppy, I grew up in a university town, and am a Catholic (with my fave doctor of the Church being St. Catherine of Sienna). So perhaps my experience skews things away from the overriding reality. Gigi on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154896 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 07:26:02 +0000 Gigi 1154896@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ This is a very interesting thread. I had a couple of reactions to the article. My first reaction was like Diana's--marking is not necessarily a bad thing. Compared to a man, I can much more easily express different facets of myself through my clothing choices. And I enjoy that. And like E said, I can use my "marked" clothing choices even as protection on occasion. If I'm going somewhere where I don't want to be bothered by males, I make sure I'm dressed in a very boring, no-nonsense, even frumpy way. I don't know much about men's clothing and so can't speak to how much it is marked, but I think that men have an abysmally small amount of clothing style choices. As gryffin pointed out, men used to be extremely fashionable! They even used to wear heels. So I think the current state of affairs is not so much that women developed to be marked while men didn't but that men ceased to be marked while women continued to be marked. And I wonder why that happened. It's really too bad. I think the world would be a lot richer of a place if men had the style options they used to have. We need a male clothing revolution! K. Period. on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154862 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 05:46:40 +0000 K. Period. 1154862@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Suz, that reminds me of a point that I meant to make. Thanks!   The men in Tannen's article are marked.  They are marked as academics.  Among a crowd of non-academic men--a group of lawyers, for example--they would be very obviously marked.  She acknowledges that when she says that beards aren't a marker among men in academics.   And spinning off on that, men face pretty significant criticism when they depart from their uniforms.  An attorney in my office has a wife who is involved in the fashion industry.  She often selects clothes for him that are very fashionable. At times too fashionable for the comfort of the other men in the office.  Their comments sometimes carry subtle subtexts of "you are departing from the norm."  They're all good friends, but the message is there.   Similarly, my partners know my husband is an academic. He has a uniform that is very different than theirs.  There are jokes about tweedy jackets and turtlenecks.  So his markers are obvious too.   I think that loops back into the idea of men as marking status and wealth, but, ehh.  That's it for me.    Suz on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154837 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 04:47:46 +0000 Suz 1154837@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Jacky, such an interesting read - thank you for posting. I agree with others that men's clothing is not as unmarked as she suggests -- but also agree with her, that marking is more ubiquitous for women (yes, even 20 years on) and has more potentially damaging effects.  I'm definitely aware of this in different contexts and dress  -- to a degree -- in response to it. I say to a degree because there's some subtle (perhaps inarticulable) line that I'm not willing to cross -- I can dress like a different version of me, but not like "not me." If that makes sense. So....what I'd wear to visit my friend who lives on a dairy farm is different than what I'd wear on a trip to New York -- and it's not only for practical reasons, although they also factor in. It's also to do with how my clothes would mark me. Or how I imagine they might mark me. Because one thing I've noticed is that as soon as we switch contexts we can be terribly mistaken about markers! Geographical differences aren't the only ones we need to factor in, either.  On the other hand, while I'll dress differently, it's a matter of degree more than kind.  The thing that strikes me about her article is that, written when it was, the men may have seemed "unmarked" because they were all academics. And there was a common uniform for academic males to which they all subscribed. The problem for the women was not so much that they were inevitably marked as that they could not choose the "female academic" marker -- because it just didn't exist. They could choose the "sexy" marker or the "sensible" marker or the "no-nonsense" marker (or whatever) -- but there wasn't an equivalent fade-into-the-background "I'm an academic" uniform for women.   Where I live, there actually is a "female academic" marker (or set of markers...there are a few variations) and it is possible (should one want to) to fit into that category pretty easily. As easily as the males, these days.  Mo on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154794 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 03:27:23 +0000 Mo 1154794@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ The paraphrased definition in your post.  I didn't get it. " . . .The unmarked form of a word . . "  All of that quoted part.  It sounds like everyone is just discussing visual cues from styles.  That I get.  The rest is so over my head. EDIT: so if the question is simply do I think some ways of dressing might make people assume certain things about me, and do I change if so, then for myself, no I don't think so.  I'm not too concerned with how I'm viewed out in the world doing my errands or going out to eat or whatever.  I have changed for personal comfort (feeling too revealed, or frumpy, etc) but not that I can remember because I'm afraid of an impression someone might (or might not) get.  At work I wear a uniform, so the point is pretty moot there.  I might feel differently if I wore "my" clothes to work, where an impression could affect my bottom line! Jacky on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154772 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 03:06:11 +0000 Jacky 1154772@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ gryffin - Oh, that's a good point about males in the animal kingdom usually having all of the visual glory. Like peacocks! Also, I didn't know that people used to get fined for dressing above their rank - historical class structures are always both really interesting and really depressing. I definitely agree that it would be interesting to talk about the history of how our perceptions of clothing and style have changed. rachylou - You're definitely right about being able to see things if you care about it. Sometimes I worry about how good we humans seem to be at finding things that separate us from each other ... ik - That's a really good point about how it's all mixed up in body language and everything else. I'd like to read some articles on how society teaches us to interpret these various things, and how we develop these often unconscious tells. Runcarla - Wow, your husband's style evolution sounds really interesting! It sounds like it would be sort of sad if he stopped wearing his ties, since he seems to enjoy them so much. Congrats on your transfer! Jacky on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154765 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 02:57:04 +0000 Jacky 1154765@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Diana - I agree with you that it's necessarily a bad thing. I do wonder, though, if it gives people a feeling of being "always on" as it were. Sometimes I feel like I don't want to communicate with my clothing at all! You make a really good point about uniforms though - my high school had uniforms and rules about what kinds of accessories you could wear, but we still noticed if one girl rolled her skirt so it was shorter when teachers weren't looking, or if that guy always popped his collar etc. Also, thanks for the additional little biology fact! That's so cool :) MuseumGal - Do you ever try to mix your roles? I'm very curious about how academic politics work! Aquamarine - I often think I could stand to do that a bit more. It's definitely something YLF has helped me with! Mo - I'm not sure what your question is directed at? Is there a line of the article that you're referring to? Jacky on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154763 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 02:50:55 +0000 Jacky 1154763@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thanks for sharing all of your stories - you've all brought up some very interesting points. caro - I think you're right that being able to make quick judgments isn't always a bad thing. One of my concerns though is whether or not we can actually prevent these quick judgments from affecting the way we view and treat other people. But the first step of making sure that they don't is being aware of them, so thank you for reminding me of that! fuzzylogic - What do you mean? Liz - That makes a lot of sense! Now I wonder more about the t-shirt wearers who surround me ... Janet - That's really fascinating! It's really interesting what parts of our culture and interactions follow us into even the most remote locations. Did you find that the "typecasting" mapped to other things that you expected from each of the people you were interacting with? Carla on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154730 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 01:45:48 +0000 Carla 1154730@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Oh, men don't get away unmarked! DH has always been teased a bit because he wears a tie to work most days. When he started (science/gov't) he wore thin wool ties in solids with plaid flannel shirts, and corduroys or chinos. As he progressed through the hierarchy he transitioned to Oxford cloth shirts, and started to introduce silk ties. He added a tweed jacket for 'important' meetings. Later he got into light weight wool pants. Then better quality shirts. he has 3 jackets (5 years, 15 years, and 25 years old-- but timeless tweed styles) that mix and match with bottoms and tops and 20 silk ties. He will soon start a new job in university/research setting vs an office in a government building. At recent meetings with his colleagues he was teased 'this will be you last time to wear a tie' and he has put serious thought to capitulating to a more casual work uniform. This week he actually started a sartorial challenge of wearing a different tie each day until he has gone through all of his ties. He is also paging through The Land's End catalogue and putting together a chino list! At least he has the sartorial war chest to 'represent' when he has to, but I believe he will be a very different looking guy in a couple of months. Maybe a lot like those 'unmarked' academics in the article? I, on the other hand, am transferring to Head Office, and am sharpening my pointy toe shoes and pencil skirts! ironkurtin on ""Marked" dressing" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/marked-dressing#post-1154685 Sat, 01 Feb 2014 00:43:47 +0000 ironkurtin 1154685@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I'm with Rachylou in that if you care, you'll see it.  I make these judgements - primarily whether people care/don't care/care too much or are comfortable/uncomfortable or appropriate/inappropriate/clueless - fairly quickly, and I do draw conclusions from that.  But this is also tied up so much with body language, power dynamics, and context that I'm not sure it can be called out separately for men OR for women.