https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Mon, 13 Apr 2026 17:51:04 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845998 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:50:17 +0000 Angie 1845998@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>GREAT link, kkards.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845979 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 16:41:25 +0000 kkards 1845979@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>&nbsp;because Glamour was keeping track...</p> <p><a href="https://www.glamour.com/gallery/model-size-diversity-plus-fashion-week-spring-2018" rel="nofollow">https://www.glamour.com/galler.....pring-2018</a></p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845954 Mon, 18 Sep 2017 14:33:57 +0000 LaPed 1845954@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Wow, finally catching up with this thread! </p> <p>Kkards, thanks for the data on market shares. I think, honestly, that the Walmart/Nordstrom divide ties directly into Rachy's point about class/wealth. And of course the gatekeeping is much stricter with women's bodies -- lots more size latitude, less scrutiny, for men.</p> <p>Annagybe, I LOVE your point about the tech industry and the ability to create demand for products that don't exist yet. I wonder if fashion as an industry will be able to survive its own solipsism. Is it gonna go the way of fine arts, available and relevant only to an elite? </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845757 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 18:07:41 +0000 Thistle 1845757@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Love the Washington Post article. Thanks for sharing it, Ryce.</p> <p>As a plus-sized woman who could afford a vacation house with the money I've spent on dieticians, personal trainers, and other things to lose weight, I can tell you I'd buy more if there was more available. If it was well made. If it fit properly.</p> <p>There's a reason 90% of my clothing budget goes to two stores (excluding shoes). My choices are limited. </p> <p>I hate shopping. And if you're shopping with a cusp or straight sized friend, you don't even shop in the same area. The plus size section at my Macy's, for example, is down in the back corner of the basement.</p> <p>No thanks. I'll go shop online. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845756 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 18:05:10 +0000 Laura (rhubarbgirl) 1845756@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Anyone have a non-subscriber link for that article, or could write a quick summary of it? </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845747 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 17:03:54 +0000 Angie 1845747@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>WOW, <b>Ryce</b><i>. FINALLY</i>. <b>BRILLIANT TIMING.&nbsp;</b> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845737 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 16:21:00 +0000 Anonymous 1845737@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Front page of today's WaPo digital edition:</p> <p><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/online-retailers-seize-on-long-ignored-market-women-size-16-and-up/2017/09/15/414d5c84-657e-11e7-a1d7-9a32c91c6f40_story.html?utm_term=.da01a03a8057" rel="nofollow">https://www.washingtonpost.com.....01a03a8057</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845726 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 15:27:37 +0000 rachylou 1845726@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Kkards - thank you for that info!</p> <p>Anna - Ok, now that's news to me about the IPO. That's just plain news... and strange to bury it. You would think that is important to the debate.</p> <p>Says to me, boy, that's a deep bias and it's gonna do fashion retailers in. Surely Amazon will take advantage of any little cracks and turn them into yawning caverns... </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845725 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 15:25:16 +0000 K.M. 1845725@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p><b>Laura</b>, I also noticed the Target website with the different-size models side by side, and thought it was wonderful. Also done in a very subtle way. I saw it for their new line (A New Day or something like that) with lots of fresh-looking pieces. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845704 Sun, 17 Sep 2017 14:44:01 +0000 Laura (rhubarbgirl) 1845704@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Following on from rachylou and kkards's comments, I agree that lower-cost retailers are doing a better job serving and appealing to the cusp and plus size market - I regularly see ads from Kohls, JC Penney, and Target with both straight and plus sized models side by side. Meijer, a superstore chain based in the Midwest (think a nicer Walmart or a super Target with groceries) has eliminated the division between straight and plus and has all women's clothes together, and seems to order all items in the full size range. Maurice's is a good one to note too, as is Dress Barn.</p> <p>There's Violeta and Universal Standard, as well as Gwynnie Bee - the latter started out as more of a middle man but now collaborates with designers and brands to make exclusive lines, so they're driving the market more these days. Stitch Fix has also expanded into plus (and men's) and they're now owned by Nordstrom - I don't know how they obtain the clothing they offer. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845497 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 19:35:34 +0000 annagybe 1845497@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Well they just had an IPO, which may explain the fashion show. Funnily enough none of above mentioned articles mentioned that. Guess that's further proof of the disconnect between fashion and the market<br /> <a href="https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/07/21/upcoming-ipos-in-2017.aspx" rel="nofollow">https://www.fool.com/investing.....-2017.aspx</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw/page/2#post-1845483 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 18:36:59 +0000 Gaylene 1845483@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I wouldn't count on anything changing in the near future, despite the flood of comments on forums and Facebook. Except for a few outliers, most companies prefer to concentrate on making money for shareholders, not leading social change. From a business perspective, employing marketing research is a less risky, and more defensible, strategy than relying on hunches about potential markets, especially in today's tumultuous retail world. </p> <p>Entering the plus-size market has two big hurdles to overcome: First, curvy bodies are unique in when, where, and how they curve so designers have to be more adept at creating designs which fit a wider variety of body shapes. It's easier to focus on a personal vision when you don't need to be distracted by how the person will actually be able to get into the garment, and many of today's designers simply aren't knowledgeable enough, or interested in, making the transition. </p> <p>Secondly, the plus size market is just as--and maybe even more--diverse than the "regular" fashion market because of the sheer numbers who wear size 12 and over. Price points, fashion sensibilities, style preferences, and environmental considerations don't disappear just because the number on a scale goes over 150 lbs. Torrid isn't for everyone, but neither is Eileen Fisher. Picking the right designs for your target market, but the wrong pricepoint will sink you. Choose the wrong image and you'll lose your target market in the nanosecond it takes for your company to be labeled as too stodgy on Facebook. </p> <p>My personal feeling is that designers and retailers aren't unaware of the demand for more options in plus-sized clothing, but have decided, in today's low-cost, fast fashion environment it's just too risky to sell to shareholders. The companies who do go that route, like Torrid, are as likely to elicit sneers as well as cheers in the press and with consumers. If companies like Torrid make money, then other designers and retailers will leap on the bandwagon, but, if they fail, it will just confirm the perception that the plus-size territory is too much of a mine field for a fashion-focused company in today's retail climate. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845479 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 18:25:47 +0000 kkards 1845479@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Angie-IMO the U.S. retailer doing it best is QVC. Most, if not all, apparel is offered in a wide, extended size range. They don't generally charge more, and they showcase the clothing on a variety of body types. </p> <p>Rachylou-- walmarts total apparel volume is around $23B, compared for example to less than $10B at Nordstroms. They also bought Modcloth (lost track of when), which gives them access to both thst brands ecommerce knowledge,but also that brands extended size selling.<br /> But the one to watch is Amazon, which is expected to own 15% or more of the apparel market by 2020. In seems like in their private brands they are going to a size 16----but not above.<br /> <a href="http://www.cpcstrategy.com/blog/2017/05/walmart-vs-amazon-fashion" rel="nofollow">http://www.cpcstrategy.com/blo.....on-fashion</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845476 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:53:13 +0000 annagybe 1845476@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Or there are "uncool" retailers<br /> NY &amp; Company's Eva Mendes line has straight &amp; plus sizes in the same styles. The more urban Garbielle Union collection goes up to XXL. I found out about this line through a plus size model on Instagram.<br /> Ashley Nell Tipton, who won Project Runway, she has a line for JC Penney<br /> ETA Marina Rinaldi has been around for quite a while but is hard to find &amp; over all pretty conservative </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845475 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:42:56 +0000 rachylou 1845475@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I can't find the answer to this question: 'How much clothing does Walmart sell in comparison to FASHION retailers?' Because Walmart is not considered a fashion retailer and is excluded... Because what I'm thinking is, non fashion retailers may sell more clothes, across the whole range of sizes... and I'm thinking of the fact that Walmart stays out of the 'fashion business' (only making anemic forays) because it knows that the industry is alienating to its customers...</p> <p>Ok. Well, maybe I'm beating a dead horse. Another way to say bigger than size 8 people are so alienated they don't buy as much... </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845472 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:19:16 +0000 Angie 1845472@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p><b>YES.</b>&nbsp;EXACTLY, Anna. Market&nbsp;research&nbsp;is missing a <i>huge</i>&nbsp;potential&nbsp;market. There is money to be made and a need to be satisfied. Designers and retailers are either unaware, or deliberately choosing to ignore a need. <i>No guts</i>.<b></b></p> <p>ETA: The ONLY retailer that had the guts to tap this segment of the market is Violeta (by MNG). Sizes 10 to 20 only. My hat off to them.</p> <p>I have&nbsp;spoken to&nbsp;manufactures and retailers that I&nbsp;come into&nbsp;contact with about&nbsp;this dire need - and so far, it all falls on deaf ears. Infuriating.&nbsp;</p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845470 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:09:46 +0000 annagybe 1845470@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Ok then the market research is missing a potential market, that's what I mean by being wrong. Marketing is so far from my knowledge base.<br /> Look at the tech industry, specifically Apple which creates new products that weren't there before &amp; still get sold.<br /> Could be a reason fashion is struggling. They don't look beyond their own circular echo chamber </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845469 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 17:03:53 +0000 Angie 1845469@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Anna, the research is hard fact. Retailers can track the sizes they sell in stores very accurately - so there is little argument on that point. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a need. A dire need for larger sizes. THERE IS. I've been shouting that from roof tops for decades. Retailers can't track a size that does not exist - <i>and they forget that.&nbsp;</i></p> <p>Retailers, startups, designers, and small businesses are reinforced by the data which makes things <b>WORSE.</b>&nbsp;They are ignoring a need in the market place that is very real - which makes me very angry. You know it does!&nbsp;<b></b> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845468 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 16:52:50 +0000 annagybe 1845468@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Angie, I definitely remember you've said that, and I understand about purchasing. But if on all these Facebook ads for various clothing companies &amp; there are many comments about lack of larger sizing then something is off. Either in the market research or built in perceptions by the designers. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845465 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 16:31:58 +0000 Angie 1845465@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Anna, there is absolutely a market for the larger size range. (Did you see my post on missed retail opportunities recentLy?).</p> <p>Important: Remember that the most BOUGHT sizes in the US are smaller than the average size. US 4 to 8 are the most bought sizes, which is why those are the sizes retailers focus on. That's the market research. Sizes US 14 to 16 are the average size - but those sizes don't shop as much, and probably because of the lack of assortment. All sooo ironic. I don't have the words. I have been going on about this forever.... </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845460 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 16:03:10 +0000 annagybe 1845460@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>So an ad for a start-up called Grammar NYC showed up on my Facebook feed.<br /> Supposedly they're making perfect white shirts for women in the NYC garment district using eco friendly textiles.<br /> One woman commented that there sizing stopped at a US 12, and saying average US woman was a 14-16. They responded saying that their market research didn't justify larger sizes. I wish I screenshot it, but now can't find it. I wonder what kind of market research is done.<br /> When I see fashion ads on Facebook I often read the comments. There are many many comments on all sorts of ads about the lack of larger sizing. So I think the market is there.</p> <p>ETA I'm agreeing with Rachylou about size, wealth and class issues. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845370 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 08:18:37 +0000 rachylou 1845370@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Excellent points about conflating tokenism and representation ... and also about the show being the finale to Torrid's model contest ... a totally different use for a fashion show.</p> <p>Also, in regards to high end fashion and plus sizes... you know, while designer stuff does drive general fashion hard from its end... I wonder how many of the super rich are plus size. I mean, think about all that surgery, all that time at the spa... and, well, I don't know about all y'all's cities, but being a small-nosed blond (by hook or crook) is still something of a prerequisite to get invited to become a member of the social club. And top positions are still recruited from the club...</p> <p>I think in some ways, while RTW has taken over and killed couture, it's nonetheless the red-headed step child. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845357 Sat, 16 Sep 2017 04:40:55 +0000 annagybe 1845357@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Interesting thing is that Bernstein from We Wore What is notorious for photoshopping herself much thinner.</p> <p>ETA on a personal level my ardor for fashion has significantly cooled with my weight gain. What appeals to me doesn't exist in my size. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845289 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 23:26:29 +0000 Laura G 1845289@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>How many times have you heard someone say, "I'm not going to buy any clothes until I lose the weight"? I suspect this, and not industry opinion about what anyone does or doesn't deserve, is the biggest reason for the lack of options in plus sizes. The market has no problem stepping up with anti-chafing creams, diet foods and supplements and high-capacity bathroom scales, because people actually buy these things. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845266 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 21:40:00 +0000 Emily K 1845266@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Thinking further about the model-search element...Maybe the NYFW show was the culmination of a marketing effort focused on the model search. &nbsp;Walking in the show would have been a prize coveted by the young women who entered. &nbsp;These women represent Torrid's customer base. &nbsp;If we searched further, we might find that the model-search marketing effort included point-of-purchase displays and media coverage and may have generated a lot of excitement within Torrid's customer base. &nbsp;Viewed in this way, it's possible that the marketing effort was wildly successful and the show, beyond its function as a prize for the contest, was almost an afterthought (although it could/should have been more, ideally). &nbsp;I'm just speculating, here. &nbsp;It would be interesting to dig up more facts.</p> <p>Also--the contrast between the point of view of the racked and DB articles was fascinating! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845232 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 18:31:45 +0000 kkards 1845232@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>What was interesting to was the amount of coverage Before the show...and the lack of reviews post show.<br /> After reading the racked piece LaPedestrienne posted, I was curious what others thought---and the daily beast was the only other article that I could find.<br /> One interesting thing I did find-- this was apparently part fashion show/ part model search.<br /> Honestly what I'd like is for mainstream sites like nordstrons jcrew etc to show Merchandise on wide variety of bodies---honestly QVC is the best at this. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845228 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 18:13:50 +0000 LaPed 1845228@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Sorry I haven’t had time to weight back in!</p> <p>Rachylou, I agree that her point about NYFW feeling less and less relevant is well-articulated. And here’s the thing: fashion as a whole is rendering itself less relevant by refusing to cater to and market to the MAJORITY of American women. Is it any wonder we’ve seen this shift towards personal style/individual interpretations? Most women can’t replicate catwalk looks because the items on display simply aren’t available in their sizes.</p> <p>Ryce, I agree that it’s astonishing that there are so few companies are even remotely interested in trying to engage a really enormous, untapped market. I think what the first article highlighted, for me, is that while there are a handful of designers out there, there just aren’t many innovators. I think the first person to come out with a truly contemporary-looking, innovative, wearable line of clothes with a size 16 at the CORE of their line, not the fringes, will be seen by history as THE fashion innovator of the 21st century. </p> <p>I read the second article, which I think the first article links. What got me (as a politics person — I’m much more fluent in politics than in fashion), is that I think the first article’s analysis is actually MORE political than the write-up in the Daily Beast. The DB article makes the mistake of conflating tokenism (“Oh, boy, one show with plus-sized models!”) with representation (ex: plus-sized models side by side with straight models wearing clothes from the same designers).&nbsp;</p> <p>As for invoking the current administration — I think we’re at a moment in history when politics sells, perhaps bigger $ than fashion. Clickbait will be clickbait. I suspect Torrid’s reasons for the show had less to do with sticking it to the man and more to do with making a profit (unless they made a statement indicating otherwise and I missed it?), so trying to draw a connection with the current political climate felt like a bit of a reach.</p> <p>And Angie, I’m with you that it’s not Torrid’s fault — they’re just doing what they do (although maybe not quite as savvily as they could), and moreover it sounds like their show made a lot of people feel happy and more included -- although it sounds like others felt more marginalized by the experience. But even if the show was a net positive, it gives us a way of talking about a problem deeply embedded in our culture, a culture which continues to say that people (women in particular), over a certain weight, no longer deserve nice things, no longer deserve choice; the fashion industry is one a manifestation of a widespread mentality. I could go on and on about the politics behind size-ism, but this is a style forum, so I won’t :)</p> <p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845225 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 18:06:23 +0000 Emily K 1845225@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I feel like the complaints were a bit scattershot. &nbsp;On one hand, it seems that the plus-size bloggers, reporters, and influencers in attendance felt marginalized and that's a big mistake. &nbsp;And, if Bernstein's role in this is the equivalent of the mean girl in high school, they shouldn't have been pandering to her. On the other hand (and this is the part that bothers me), it seems that the author felt that plus size fashion should have kept its shame private. &nbsp;Torrid is what Torrid is--they make inexpensive mall-clothing that isn't particularly well made or innovative. &nbsp;We all might wish that a line featuring classy, luxurious, innovative, plus-size fashion had hosted a show. &nbsp;Where were they? &nbsp;Someone had to lob in the first ball and it was Torrid. The show garnered modest mainstream attention. &nbsp;It was a place to start. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845194 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 16:12:36 +0000 Angie 1845194@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>My two cents: <ul> <li>Why wouldn't Torrid&nbsp;show at NYFW? The more diverse the models - the&nbsp;better.</li> <li>I liked the show and thought it was fab.&nbsp;</li> <li>The show reflects Torrid's usual&nbsp;assortment of merchandise. Nothing wrong with it.&nbsp;They&nbsp;have a target market&nbsp;that is very&nbsp;under-serviced. Well done to them.</li> <li>I&nbsp;don't get the Bernstein affiliation.&nbsp;That seemed off.&nbsp;</li> <li>Nodding&nbsp;along&nbsp;with Ryce and Rachy.</li> <li>You cannot separate politics&nbsp;from&nbsp;anything anymore. The world&nbsp;is different.&nbsp;</li> </ul> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/good-but-disheartening-read-torrid-at-nyfw#post-1845170 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 14:59:00 +0000 Anonymous 1845170@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Thanks for sharing this, LaP!<br />Wow - did those reporters go to the same show?<br />Seriously, I get that the fashion reporter had the background to compare it to the mechanics of other shows. &nbsp;While the political reporter would obviously focus on the current political climate. &nbsp;But, still.....<br />And, yes, it's hard to imagine anyone would think retaining Danielle Bernstein made any sense whatsoever. &nbsp;<br />I will confess to being totally mystified at the fashion industry's lack of interest in providing quality products to an underserved market. &nbsp;I mean, isn't the point of business to make money? &nbsp;They are leaving SO much on the table. &nbsp;</p>