YouLookFab Forum » Topic: Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?

YouLookFab Forum » Topic: Do we really think our looks aren't "us"? https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Sun, 03 May 2026 17:55:46 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 <![CDATA[Search]]> q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php Jaime on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384708 Tue, 28 Oct 2014 03:17:34 +0000 Jaime 1384708@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Aziraphale you expressed yourself very well, and please excuse me for challenging you a bit upthread. I love your example of a singer vs. a violinist because that is closer to what I am thinking about while removing the laden looks from the equation. The violinist you mention was born with talent, the right kind of family, and maybe even the right personality, but still she did the work. But, on the other hand, the singer with the naturally good voice still, quite properly I think, sees herself as a singer and takes pride in that - or maybe not? Gaylene I love your example of AH resetting our notions of beauty and agree with you completely. Society's emphasis not just on looks, but a certain kind of youthful looks, is offensive. Although I suppose one must admit maintaining that kind of look does require quite a bit of work - in every sense. Lyn D. :-) Nika Lea I have two daughters and a son and it very important to me to show them that I am just as vital as mothers without grey hair. I am keeping a wary eye as they approach their teenage years though. I was disturbed by the women of Parenthood because it that is the standard expectation, no one is going to feel good about aging. SarahTheWhite I love your stories. People who are slightly less standard might be a bit more sensitive to false expectations.  Eta Echo exactly. If we are born with the looks that are sought after or shunned by society,  or born with a certain personality that primes us for success - or failure, who are we and why are some parts more us than the others.   Echo on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384697 Tue, 28 Oct 2014 03:02:21 +0000 Echo 1384697@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Many people here rightly point out that the gifts and benefits we have in life are often due at least in part to a genetic lottery. We accept without question that some people are born traditionally "prettier" or more intelligent or taller or more musically gifted than others. But how far do we extend the same assumption as far as negative traits go? For example, there are studies indicating that one's odds of being a convicted felon are more dependent on whether one's parents are felons than on any amount of nurture. Children adopted as infants into stable, middle-class households have hugely higher rates of being convicted criminals if one of their parents was, even if the child never knew anything about his parents at all. Likewise, the greatest predictor of unplanned teenaged pregnancy is whether one's mother was a teen mum. Even if the mother marries and the child is raised in a wealthy, upper-class home, her odds of becoming a teen mum herself are hugely higher than if her mum had her first child at a later age. And the accident of birth can contribute at least as much to our "gifts". There are many interesting studies indicating that something we in the US find elusive and to be a gift, perfect pitch, is far more common in societies with tonal languages like Mandarin Chinese. While an average of 1 in 10,000 people in Europe and the US have absolute pitch, well over half of those speaking tonal languages do. For children beginning musical training at an early age, the incidence rises to about 14% of Americans and almost 75% of tonal language speakers.  Honestly? I am not sure what my point is in all this, except to say that as we unravel the human genome, we find that far more of what we consider to be uniquely ours is instead written into our genes. How much free will do we actually have, even as far as ambition to develop the traits we are born with? If one person has the ambition to finish multiple degrees, despite struggling in school, is that also a trait he or she was born with? How much of our nature can we actually change? SarahTheWhite on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384610 Tue, 28 Oct 2014 00:29:07 +0000 SarahTheWhite 1384610@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Just chiming in here with another anecdote from my work day. I spent some time with an electrician today who came to give us a quote on some work for our existing office as well as a new building we purchased. I felt a little out of body - like I was watching us do this little dance of sizing each other up - him with his faded blue jeans, tattered baseball cap, thick wedding ring and silver stud through his tonge, and me with my blonde-as-you-can-get hair, young looking, made-up face, and pointy toe leopard flats. And I have to tell you, it was the best experience I have had yet with this type of situation. I have rarely felt so respected before as an intelligent, grown up woman. He managed to explain what needed to be done, without demeaning or talking down to me. In fact, I had to struggle to keep up (and at one point insist that he speak to our IT guy on the phone because I needed backup). He assumed that I knew more than I actually did, but also took the time to explain what I didn't know without making me feel like an idiot. Anyway, I just thought it was interesting because we both could have brought a boat load of preconceived misconceptions into that interaction, but we both (I think) came away with a mutual respect and appreciation for one another. Niki Lea on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384588 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 23:09:09 +0000 Niki Lea 1384588@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ "Beauty, to me, is more subjective and transitory than the other "gifts" that you mention." Gaylene, I so agree with this. And Michelle, your post just blew my mind. Going back to the first post that talked about how Mrs. Braverman looks barely older than her granddaughters on Parenthood, I've struggled with the pressure I feel to "fix" my looks as I'm going through my 30s. One of my favourite day time shows in Canada even occasionally features a prominent plastic surgeon who talks about what women should be fixing.  In my social/work circles, there are women having their breasts reshaped, tummies tucked, and faces nipped here and there. I'm not opposed to this at all, and may some day make some of the same choices. But I kind of want my daughter to know what the aging process looks like, and how aging can be beautiful too.  This is not a judgement of anyone who has taken that route. I wholeheartedly support the personal choice to have it done. Just something I'm thinking about more and more as my daughter, and son for that matter, grow up. Lyn D. on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384550 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 21:36:57 +0000 Lyn D. 1384550@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Gosh, I learn so much more than how to bookend my hair on YLF. Thanks all for another fascinating thread Aziraphale on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384498 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 20:05:29 +0000 Aziraphale 1384498@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ As usual, Gaylene said what I was trying to say with half the words and twice the clarity. Gaylene on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384489 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 19:48:58 +0000 Gaylene 1384489@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Beauty, to me, is more subjective and transitory than the other "gifts" that you mention. And, like Aziraphale points out, working to develop and hone a talent elicits more of my admiration than just being born with a propensity towards something that is held in high regard by our society. That said, I reserve my "beauty" appreciation for women whose beauty comes from the force of their personality and other talents rather than for those whose beauty arises from a conformity to prevailing standards. So I think I fall into the camp that feels that "born-with" looks aren't a very important part of us--at best they are kind of a sideshow or distraction. Give me an Anjelica Huston who spent years feeling like an ugly duckling surrounded by mobs of "born with good looks", but eminently forgettable, starlets and models. To my eye, she is a beautiful woman who re-sets notions of female beauty by forcing us to expand our definition of what is attractive and compelling in a woman's appearance. Anonymous on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384399 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:40:25 +0000 Anonymous 1384399@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Quote from Aziraphale: "What particularly bothers me is that women (and not men) are judged on looks first, and everything else second. And physical beauty is, of all the qualities a woman might be born with, the most superficial, and the least important when it comes to adding anything meaningful to the collective oevre of humanity." Exactly! And yes, I take great pride in my accomplishments, and in my daughters' accomplishments. That said, beauty should not be the first thing people judge. While I have stressed to my daughters the importance of dressing appropriately, particularly for one's chosen occupation, I have also taught them not to rely on looks, as beauty fades. They each seem to have a healthy self image. Aziraphale on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384397 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:39:54 +0000 Aziraphale 1384397@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Put another way, would you be prouder of your pretty face or the fact that you earned a PhD? This is why I'm generally much more impressed by accomplished violinist, say, than a great singer. Sometimes people can sing really well without much effort. They were just born with a good voice. Not that you don't train hard for certain kinds of singing, like opera -- but sometimes people can sing really well with no training at all. You KNOW, however, that nobody plays violin -- or any instrument -- really well without thousands of hours of practice, regardless of their natural musical 'talent'. You could argue that the violin virtuoso got where she did because, first, she was born into an upper middle class family that had the means to provide violin lessons, and the culture that values playing an instrument. You could argue that she was born with the persnickety kind of personality that an exacting instrument like the violin requires, and has a natural inclination to want to practice. This might all be true. But she still invests thousands and thousands of hours, which is far more admirable than simply having a pretty voice or a pretty face! Aziraphale on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384393 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 17:28:31 +0000 Aziraphale 1384393@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Shevia, of course I have an appreciation for beauty! A very deep appreciation.  :-) My comment must have been misleading. What particularly bothers me is that women (and not men) are judged on looks first, and everything else second. And physical beauty is, of all the qualities a woman might be born with, the most superficial, and the least important when it comes to adding anything meaningful to the collective oevre of humanity.  But to be clear, that's not to say that there is anything wrong with taking pride in one's appearance, and taking care of one's health and beauty. It's good for you, both physically and psychologically. And I definitely appreciate beauty in many things, be it a human face or a dew-coated spider's web. I personally invest quite a bit of effort into making the most of my physical appearance. But when it comes to how people see me, I would hope that my appearance is the LAST thing they judge, not the first. Jaime on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384137 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 04:37:58 +0000 Jaime 1384137@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thank you all so much for your thoughtful and thought provoking comments. I spent a long time considering each one and responding, and believe me it was for my own pleasure. One general comment: reading all these comments makes me realize that I am trying to separate society's value system, with its over-emphasis on looks and youth, from our own self perception. It is my tentative contention that how we are born, in terms of our talents, intelligence, personality and looks, is as much a part of us as what we make of ourselves. With the further, more radical, suggestion that even what we make of ourselves is to a greater or lesser degree part of our genetic makeup. Echo absolutely! Society does value looks and youth in a way I also resent. And I guess the way we value ourselves is a reflection to some extent of that resentment.  Sharan I am also inclined to favor the doing rather than the being, but the doing is also very often a genetic gift. Sarah all right! Love it! Isabel Totally agree that the emphasis on beauty is totally out of proportion. But in Amal Clooney's example, the fact that she speaks three languages is (as far as I understand) also a bit of genetic and family circumstance luck.  Gigi It is true that you can not work yourself into being a model (and although not every actress is conventionally beautiful it does seem to help), but I am not sure that the ability to work hard is not itself something of a gift. Style Fan Point well taken. Nonetheless, my grandmother, who worked very hard at both her looks and her work, would have loved that eulogy. At 95 her looks were certainly an accomplishment.  Sharon Yes. I basically agree that success is greatly influenced by our package of gifts and even go so far to say that our ability to develop them is also in itself a gift. And I strongly feel the we have too much faith in the idea of meritocracy as being somehow fair. Krishni Thank you. I totally agree about the pleasure of getting to know different aspects of the women on this forum. Diane Athletes and models have a lot in common I think. Both need a very specific sort of physical gift as a baseline. Then they must work hard to exploit and pursue it. Society's appreciation for these gifted people over people with other talents and abilities doing other work is certainly questionable.  bettycrocker You should take pride in your accomplishments. We are all full of prejudices unfortunately. Suz you are very wise. I do think as women our style becomes more important as we age. And I do think early treatment by our family and others does influence how we feel about ourselves in a profound and difficult to combat way. Janet yes! Hilary Clinton strikes me as a woman who profoundly wishes she could get on with things without worrying about her hair, but who understands that is not workable given her ambitions, so concedes time to stylists. (As far as I am concerned, she is one of the most articulate and intelligent public figures out there.) Peri yes absolutely. Looks are not the only gift that may be unduly favored by society. Isabel I relate to this extremely well. 2/3 of my kids are naturally talented at math, as am I. The third can get it but we have to work at it. She has talents that the other two don't - she has wonderful comic timing among other things. I spend a lot of effort explaining that we all have our own mix of talents and they are all valuable. But I do consider all these things gifts, along with their adorable looks ;-)! SarahtheWhite Thank you for that story. We all make and receive snap judgments, like it or not. Your wisdom in recognizing what is most important is simply beautiful.  Angie You have the gift of warming my heart and I am deeply appreciative of it, however you came by it! IK Yup. Agree. Aziraphale, I am interested in your comment because you are an artist after all, so it surprises me a bit that you find concern with looks superficial. Appreciation of beauty is a human trait and certainly something an artist and her audience must do? Totally agree that talent without cultivation doesn't get you very far but even the will and energy to pursue and cultivate talents is to some degree part of our inborn character and early upbringing. Why do we give ourselves more credit for these gifts than the gift of our physical selves? Furthermore, many women spend quite a lot of time and effort cultivating their looks. Adelfa, yes women are expected to have it all. Amal Clooney is the icon although, Hilary Clinton is at this point far more accomplished (because, at the very least, she is older). Una, accents are a terrific example that hit home. My children and I have terrible accents. Even though my kids were born in Israel and are bilingual, my son has an American accent in English and my kids speak English with a Hebrew accent. My accent in Hebrew is terrible and I can be hardly comprehensible for it. This is definitely a problem with our auditory processing but makes me very self-conscious because I feel people are judging me on it. Anyway, I have read about those bias studies and done on-line tests and yes, indeed, it would seem we are fooling ourselves if we think we are in control. To my mind, it is not a question of faulting people that don't develop various aspects of themselves, it is more about owning the whole package. (I saw and thoroughly appreciated the article on FMcD in the NYTimes.) Deb thank you for bringing in your perspective. You are right, the question is much more loaded for people that have especially challenging relationships with their body.  TraceyLiz it is wonderful that your daughter values her abilities and is working to make the most of them. I guess the question for me is not whether our looks (genetic and cultivated) are important but how they relate to our other talents and abilities (also genetic and cultivated) in our self image.  Laura, yes, the dualism is very western and is being influenced by the globalization of ideas as well as goods. I also think meritocracy is somewhat a myth - or at least far from the whole story.  Lisap what you wrote made sense to me. Perhaps you feel your body is something you should be able to control, which is why you struggle with it?  Tulle yes! BJ indeed. Not sure this is a good thing though. Michelle, wow I'm flattered. I do not disagree that looks are given disproportionate attention and praise in our society - quite the opposite. I am just wondering out loud how we see our looks as opposed to other parts of ourselves. My contention is that most of what we are is heavily influenced by genetics and upbringing - neither of which is our own doing, so to speak. Let us say I am a tall, blonde and blue eyed concert pianist.* I was born with height, conventionally beautiful coloring and an enormous musical talent. I practice hours a day at the piano, and the rest of the time I am at the gym or having a facial. I eat healthily, watch my weight and pay lots of money to keep myself naturally blonde. Who am I? What is more important? *Michelle and others, I am clearly none of these things. eta Marin - alas that is the way it is. I guess you have the challenge to help her keep things in perpective. Anonymous on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384127 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 04:09:26 +0000 Anonymous 1384127@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thank you for such an engaging and interesting read. It fills my heart to know that the world my daughters will encounter will be sprinkled with strong thoughtful women to support them for who they are. Who will recognize them for their contributions. Not let them off easy, expect them to be THIER best. And shame on the guy at Starbucks that told my 5 year old - blonde fits every stereo type of beauty in our media driven cluture - that she can have whatever she wants (cut line in this case) because she is pretty. Michelle on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1384094 Mon, 27 Oct 2014 02:58:40 +0000 Michelle 1384094@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Wow, Shevia, you've accomplished a first - this is the first YLF thread that made me take notes as I read. This was absolutely fascinating. I have many thoughts that seem a bit disjointed at this stage, but I'll try and weave them into something resembling a cohesive response. :) "If a woman is born with high intelligence, exceptional musical talent, or athletic ability why is that more to her credit than being born looking like a model?" The whole premise of this thread was that beauty is less valued than intelligence, artistic/ athletic prowess, or other accomplishments that required more visible effort to achieve. I'd argue that this isn't even truly the case on a variety of levels. First of all, I'm not persuaded that beauty is less valued. People may have genuine respect for the more tangible achievements I've already listed, but those accomplishments often seem eclipsed by physical attributes when they're present or diminished when they're not. The article about Clooney's fiancee is a perfect example of this. It's a particularly extreme case, but it's almost as though that writer was paying lipservice to her intellectual strengths and saving the more genuine plaudits for the physical ones. We have a similar situation here in Canada. One of our more high-profile federal politicians married a highly intelligent woman who has a tremendous record of human rights activism. She also happened to have won a beauty pageant once, and she's referred to as a "former beauty queen" just as often, if note more so, than she's called a human rights afctivist, feminist or anything else pertaining to her work. Another example I'll submit is the contrast between the treatments Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama received as first lady. Both women forged similar career paths and were highly respected in their fields, but Mrs. O has attained a certain status that Mrs. C never received due largely to her more glamourous and stylish presentation. I wonder if, as Adelpha eluded to, Mrs. O ever feels limited or constrained by her appealing physical appearance? As Angie said, being beautiful can be hard work, and I argue that it has its share of emotional baggage as well. Assessment of characteristics can extend beyond the question of attractiveness, too. Psychology has revealed a height bias that people bring to bear on men, particularly those in power. Ditto face shapes, which have been well researched as evoking all kinds of associations right out of the gate. As for people with physical disabilities, any of their accomplishments tend to be viewed through that lens rather than taken at face value. I can't tell you the number of times people have praised me for doing X or Y "because I'm blind," or "in spite of my blindness" etc. Maybe that particular accomplishment is worthy of praise, maybe it's not, but it's invariably framed by my physical reality. The same can be said for the able-bodied celebrity examples I've mentioned above.      My point is that physical status in general, and beauty in particular, *are* valued in this society. We as participants in a fashion and style forum surely recognize this implicitly, as we're here to make the most of what assets we have. Appearance likely shouldn't be valued in the way that it is, but we're dealing in real-world terms here rather than ideal ones. I agree with Sharon and others that judgmental conduct is the key here. Everyone *should* be judged independently and as a complete physical, emotional and intellectual package, but society as a whole does not do this. Perhaps it's best to work on doing that within our own spheres. We can limit our judgment of others, try to discourage those around us from falling into such habits, etc. Every non-judgmental person I've ever encountered has had a genuine impact on me and others around them. Rather than agonizing over broader social patterns over which we have very limited control, perhaps we should focus on exercising what control we do have and trying to affect change on a smaller scale? Sarah the White: that was a fascinating story and a perfect example of how your physical condition, rather than your attractiveness quotient, was used as social shorthand for the types of experiences you've had in life. On a related note, I'm so very sorry you've ever had to contend with the loss of a child. My condolences. And finally...To those who play the old "girls can't do math and science" card, I have only two words. Marie, and Curie. High five to Isabel, Tracy Liz and all the others who fight this absurd misconception. Your reply bj1111 on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383909 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:45:36 +0000 bj1111 1383909@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ men feel the pressure to look younger too. <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/fashion/13SKIN.html?_r=0">http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01......html?_r=0</a> behaviors will become more prevalent and more extreme if the number of men undergoing manscaping/botox is any indication.  tulle on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383902 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:22:08 +0000 tulle 1383902@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I feel that, as a species, we are hardwired to respond to beauty, and attractive people will always have a certain advantage in life--but there are so many ways of being attractive!  It has often struck me that the longer I know someone, the more beautiful he or she looks to me. Surely we can feel grateful for the gift of beauty, wherever we find it? deb on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383882 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 21:33:23 +0000 deb 1383882@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Thanks Una, she is one of my favorite actresses. catgirl on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383852 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:18:05 +0000 catgirl 1383852@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ An article on Frances McDormand and looking your age: <a href="http://thehoopla.com.au/looking-age-subversive-act/" rel="nofollow">http://thehoopla.com.au/lookin.....rsive-act/</a> Anonymous on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383805 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 18:50:17 +0000 Anonymous 1383805@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ This is a really interesting read, as was the other thread that started this conversation .  What is great is reading what everyone thinks, feels and wishes for.  I'm not sure I have anything sensible to contribute as this is giving me lots to think about. I have a mixed relationship with looks vs achievements and looks vs personality traits  and likability.  I don't bemoan my appearance in terms of my face (i.e. the things I cannot change) but I do bemoan my body at times.  I wish I were better at keeping it  perfect. I don't know why, though, because as I've decided with my face, looking like Amul Alamuddin or Cindy Crawford would be very nice, but it wouldn't change my life. For some reason I think if I had a perfect (or closer to) body , my life would be changed.  I'd feel better and be freed of self-consciousness and able to focus on what really matters.  What I want to be noted for most of all is for my intelligence, success and knowledge - things I struggle with internally . I never feel up to standard on those things in certain environments (mostly success and knowledge) and among certain groups of people. My internal demons have limited my success - or so I feel . Not my looks.  I type this and I don't even understand what I'm trying to say:) Laura (rhubarbgirl) on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383792 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 18:19:19 +0000 Laura (rhubarbgirl) 1383792@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Deb brings up something that I was thinking as well. My body was always something that was just there, a room I was living in if you will, not something I thought of intrinsic to my 'me-ness'. I've tried to resist such dualism in recent years and integrate my body and my mind and think of both as me, but I still don't think of my body as consistuative, if that makes any sense. For sure, our society doesn't like to think that our outcomes are so due to genetics and luck as they probably are. We like to fantasize that we're in a meritocracy but we're not. TraceyLiz65 on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383787 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 18:15:36 +0000 TraceyLiz65 1383787@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Isabel's points really made me take a moment to celebrate that my blond haired daughter valued her intelligence and substance over looks.  She is fantastic at both math and science and took AP Physics in high school and never felt the need to dumb herself down which I know so many girls do in the teen years around the boys.. In hindsight her mindset with this is of most importance for her chosen path of getting a PhD and I am so glad that those messages though around her, were outright rejected.  I think having 3 brothers actually helped her in this.   I also love that she embraces her inner child and hasn't gone to just schooling and is balanced. She doesn't feel the need to wear daily makeup, but loves it for anytime outside of school... I fought hard as a child to not be put in the box adults around me tried so hard to put me in... I was a very spunky, sassy, witty girl and called cute and adorable in a somewhat dismissive manner of other personality traits, which irritated me no end.  I knew I was intelligent, kind and funny and wanted to be appreciated for the choices I was making on who to become rather than the comments regarding my looks that always came my way...I remember years of self-talk where I felt like I was screaming, "Why can't you see who I AM by Choice, not by Nature! " I was probably 8 when that started in full force and lasted most of my teen years.   No one ever said such one sided comments regarding my sister or brothers... They were celebrated for accomplishments.   I felt like no one expected as much of me... Not so much my parents, but every other adult at school and church... This experience made me a mother who taught her children that substance and being kind was there responsibility in this world.... I am grateful that I didn't succumb to playing on the advantage of my looks as I saw so many girls do and create more shallow lives for themselves...  This doesn't just happen to women by the way... I remember when my husband would go to test drive cars and get given overnights and special privileges that my friend's husband's tried and got denied...  ,My husband didn't ask they volunteered these.. Same exact people denied that overnights were ever done to friends husband... They asked no financial questions, so it was purely on his looks and how he presented himself... He knows this and definitely has used it many times to his advantage... Right now I know his company is looking at him for possible commercial sales as his look and confidence would play well with business owners...    Anonymous on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us/page/2#post-1383772 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:50:50 +0000 Anonymous 1383772@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ My boss gives preferential treatment to certain people, based on their occupation, appearance and/or social status. This really rubs me the wrong way, as we are there to serve the general public, and that includes everyone. I don't think there should be preferential treatment. I have lost count of the number of times I've been asked if a client looked like he/she had $ or not. Why should that matter? Everyone should receive the same courteous, respectful service. So yes, there's a certain amount of discrimination, if you will, and it shouldn't be that way. deb on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383754 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 17:10:55 +0000 deb 1383754@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Shevia, this question is so loaded for me in many ways. Since I was a child I have never thought of my body as 'me'. Not only because of looks but health reasons. My body is the place 'I' inhabit and basically no different than the  house I live in. I try to take care of my body just like my house. I also believe look have played a large roll in all societies since the beginning of man. And for that matter, for the whole animal kingdom. Men preen just as often as women, I just do not think they talk about it.  catgirl on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383747 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 16:55:21 +0000 catgirl 1383747@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ The information I learned on implicit bias showed that we are hardwired to make snap decisions, and that both biological and societal/cultural biases are ingrained.  For instance, the feature that most determines whether one finds a face trustworthy is the depth of the indentation above the nose, between your eyebrows.  Who has control over that?  Race, gender, age, weight, accent - all these factors and more may create immediate impressions in our minds about a person's character without us even realizing it. A good example: accents.  When I was a kid, the cartoon characters with a Southern accent were usually dumb.  The New York accent was a trickster smartypants rabbit.  What does that tell a kid about who's smart and who isn't?  So much of what is considered beautiful is the same way - snap-judging features over which we have little control (skin color, height, bone structure) yet determined quickly, subconsciously influenced by biology, culture, and society.  If we are talking about style, rather than the being wearing the clothes, then I do believe that can be cultivated and admired for the talent and work it can take to dress well.  But I don't fault people for not choosing style as their focus, any more than I would fault them for not taking up the violin.  Adelfa on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383744 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 16:45:09 +0000 Adelfa 1383744@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ If we can go back to the idea of the pair of sisters where one is "the pretty one" and one is "the smart one," I know more than one pair where neither sister likes her role, and both feel diminished by it. So even though people respond more immediately to a beautiful woman, I wonder if, in these enlightened days, a woman might have to be both pretty and smart to be considered truly adequate. Plus a good mother, and on and on. Jaime on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383742 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 16:38:15 +0000 Jaime 1383742@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Wow! I am blown away by all the interesting and thought provoking directions this thread has taken. I will touch on a few and get back to the rest later since I am holding up dinner here. Sharon, your comment reflects my starting point. Everything I have read and experienced suggests to me that much more than we usually consider is genetically determined - including personality traits such as perseverance, kindness, altruism and competitiveness.  I am not saying we can't change or are completely determined, but as Angie and IK and others suggested, perhaps looks are not a simple gift granted at birth but must be developed and maintained as much as any other talent or skill.  Suz and bettycrocker I think personal style is the heart of the matter. Our personal style is the interaction of what we are given and what we make of it. But it is, in the end, largely a visual creation - it is what our looks in some sense. Where is the line between owning our personal style and being overly defined by it? To basically everyone - yes, it is offensive that we are held up to standards that are impossible to maintain. Or even worse, extremely difficult but just possible enough to keep us trying, wasting energy that could be pursued in other areas. Again there is that mysterious line between not disowning our looks but not being defined by them exclusively. And yes, it is a joy to have a place to throw out these ideas and have so many wise women discuss them! Thank you all and I can't wait to reread tomorrow! Aziraphale on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383741 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 16:35:33 +0000 Aziraphale 1383741@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Shevia, it is true that every aspect of a person has a genetic basis. But those things you mention -- exceptional musical talent, say, or IQ, or athletic ability -- all of those things can be cultivated. To some degree you have to play the hand you're dealt (you probably can't be an olympic-level gymnast if you're five foot ten), but most things other than looks can be achieved with effort and perseverance. I suppose looks can be improved to some degree with effort -- makeup and flattering haircut/clothing etc -- but, I don't know, it just seems so superficial. If you learn how to do something well, it's a REAL achievement. If you're born with a pretty face, how lucky for you, but you did nothing to earn it. Even being born with great intelligence is useless if you don't put in some kind of serious effort to achieve something with it. Plus, to really change something, you'd need a plastic surgeon. That's insane. And yet how many women go under the knife to change the face or body they present to the world? (I guess men do too, but far more women have cosmetic surgery).  I guess the whole thing annoys me because of the gender imbalance. We are all judged on looks, but women much more so. No one ever asked President Clinton about his designer suit, but they asked Hilary. And made relentless (often negative) comments about her looks and style. She had to work hard for her achievements to eclipse all that.  ironkurtin on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383711 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:42:10 +0000 ironkurtin 1383711@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ I think we only appreciate the effort that is put into being ANYthing if we have experienced it ourselves.  It's easy to see being beautiful as "effortless" and somehow undeserved.  But it takes time and discipline to develop and direct that beauty, just as it does talent.  It's not just innately gifted. I think we've all met people skilled in one realm or another only to learn that's all they have and it's not very pleasant to spend time with them. For example, I've met several authors whose work I very much admired and just could not wait to get away from them.  I've also met people who I initially thought were plain and realized they are more than beautiful. I think what I truly dislike is being judged on something we never meant to convey -- like, "you must be sexually available!" or "you can't do math" or whatever.  But since no one can really control what other people think, it's just kindof one of those things you have to take day by day.  As someone not conventionally beautiful, I get a different gamut of responses than someone who is, but there you go.  Life. Angie on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383690 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:18:12 +0000 Angie 1383690@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Shevia, HIGH FIVE. I was thinking along similar lines  yesterday with what you wrote here:  "If a woman is born with high intelligence, exceptional musical talent, or athletic ability why is that more to her credit than being born looking like a model?" Being a brilliant model is as skilled as being a brilliant engineer. You only get to appreciate this when you work with models, or actually have to be a model yourself. Trust me on this.  Team Sharan. Each day I try to be less judgmental than the day before. Judgements are a natural thought process, and an EXTREMELY dangerous one.  And Suz, you are as wise as ever. I support all that you said too.  SarahTheWhite on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383689 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:14:13 +0000 SarahTheWhite 1383689@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ This is very interesting. I think that this is all about who is looking/judging. Strangers on the street and random people we interact with in minor ways only have so much data to work with in making an assessment. Our looks are the very first thing that others see, and I do think that to some degree we are all simply programmed to admire beauty. When I see a beautiful woman or man, I do take a moment to admire and appreciate that beauty. I can't help it. I'm struck with it. (Admiring great style is also in this category for me.). But I do think that society certainly takes that a step further and elevates it disproportionately. Then I think that what happens is the people who interact with us a little further (say, the repairman that you meet on multiple occasions to set up a job) begin to see a little further below the surface - that we are intelligent (or knowledgeable), impatient, kind, stubborn... Various traits start to emerge that add to what their initial assessment of age and beauty conjured. And then you have the people we work with everyday. They may not be our closest friends/family members, but they certainly know what our characters are. Things like beauty, style, intelligence, and skill all factor into what they think of us, but I can guarantee that things like our kindness (or lack thereof) reign supreme in their judgements of us as people. And finally, you have that group of people who are our nearest and dearest. These are the ones who know our character strengths and flaws, our beauty strengths and flaw... and everything in between, and love us unconditionally through it all. This is the group that matters the most, and yet who judges the least (or at lease should). Just the other day, I had a situation happen where I was at a meeting with my boss, and she struck up a conversation with a woman that we will probably never see again. They were discussing parenting and how marriages play into how we parent. No one really drew me into the conversation and they were both talking too much for me to insert myself. I knew that my own 20 years of marriage and two children (and having lost one of those children) did have much insight to offer, but I honestly didn't feel the need to interject. They were doing a thorough enough job without me. At the end of the conversation, our new acquaintance turned to me, and asked "how old are you?" I was so shocked that I had to repeat the question back to her. When I told her that I was 42 (much too old to be asked outright in our society) she was shocked nearly speechless and admitted that she thought I was in my 20's. I know that I should have been flattered, but it was so awkward because my boss is only 3 years older than me, and this snap visual judgement that the woman made had actually cost an even deeper level of conversation that she still doesn't know could have existed had she probed farther beneath the surface. But in the end, I honestly don't care. My boss and other co-workers have long since learned to look below the exterior and see the qualities that lie beneath, and my deepest relationships in life are based on mutual love and acceptance. It just doesn't matter to me whether the random people on the street, or various people I interact with for an hour here or there think of me, as long as there are people in my life who know the real me. Isabel on "Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?" https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/do-we-really-think-our-looks-arent-us#post-1383685 Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:03:15 +0000 Isabel 1383685@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ Janet, I do want to say that one of the goals for my daughter is that she NOT care about it.  I want her to be like you and so many other women here :  don't listen to the media.  They are just trying to sell stuff !  LOL ( The booty comment is because there are a number of songs our right now about how a big booty is a great physical asset.  We are having a HUGE booty moment in music history.    )  Stylefan, your eulogist will say, " Her ravishing beauty never outshone her ravishing curiosity and kind heart. "   Her friends here will make sure of it !