https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde Style Advice for Fashion Lovers en-US Sun, 05 Apr 2026 17:36:11 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/search.php https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1144199 Mon, 20 Jan 2014 08:14:13 +0000 Greyscale 1144199@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I'm coming late to this conversation, but I've enjoyed reading back through all the comments and I&nbsp;realize I was using the term avant-garde differently than many of you.&nbsp;</p> <p>To me, avant-garde is almost particular phase in fashion, the one that a lot of you have described, Rei Kawakubo,&nbsp;Margiela, Demuelemeester, etc. Just like we use "modern" and postmodern" to refer to specific periods in literary / cultural history. So when I use the phrase, I often mean something reminds me of that particular aesthetic.</p> <p>But that was without really thinking about it, and after reading all your comments, I realize that's definitely not the only way I use the term. I also think of design that's really pushing the limits of what is wearable or functional. So, even though there's no one correct&nbsp;definition, maybe I'll stop throwing around avant garde so casually about things that are practically a formula.</p> <p>The question of what happens when the avant garde becomes mainstream... I was intrigued by the Margiela collaboration with H&amp;M two years ago. The pieces they included were reissues of regular Margiela pieces from the past decade or more. So, first, is something still avant garde if you re-release it for a mass market? But on the other hand, if you look at the pieces, it's hard not to see a deconstructed jacket or a sideways dress as avant garde even if it's been done before. I'm curious if their sales met expectations. I was surprised they were selling such unusual things. (But for me it was perfect - even if I'm not avant garde enough to wear most of it.) </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1144172 Mon, 20 Jan 2014 06:03:40 +0000 Caro in Oz 1144172@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I love that video Anna it's still stunning.</p> <p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1144125 Mon, 20 Jan 2014 04:43:41 +0000 Deborah 1144125@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Caro I like you on your soapbox! You know stuff!! I am encouraged to do some more research. I am familiar with these Japanese designers and particularly love the work of Yamamato but I need to take a good look at what they were doing in the 80's to get a better understanding.</p> <p>Anna, that is a beautiful video. Mesmerizing. Now I need to find the fashion show it was part of and watch that. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1144115 Mon, 20 Jan 2014 04:30:54 +0000 annagybe 1144115@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>On a tangent. I think Viktor and Rolf used to be more avant garde. Their perfume, Flowerbomb was hugely panned by fashiony people because it was a very mainstream floral perfume and really not reflective of their design house.<br />I'm on call this holiday&nbsp;weekend and have been working too much to dig up better examples, those were the first houses that came to mind.</p> <p>Also just to show that presentation is hugely impactful I give one of the most sublime moments in fashion, ever by the late great Alexander McQueen.</p> <p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cou04-vOZx8">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cou04-vOZx8</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1144111 Mon, 20 Jan 2014 04:21:55 +0000 Caro in Oz 1144111@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I agree Deborah I think Odyssey has a really clearly defined aesthetic.&nbsp;</p> <p>With Anna's links I still have trouble seeing some of those pieces as avant garde&nbsp;- I think they were when&nbsp;Schiaparelli&nbsp;did them but not so much now - to me they are&nbsp;more costume &amp; I believe avant garde is more than just costume.</p> <p>I believe the last true avant garde&nbsp;push was in the 1980s.&nbsp;<span>Japanese designers such as Issey Miyake, Rei Kawakubo and Yohji Yamamoto reshaped fashion literally - cuts changed, fabrics changed &amp; the relationship of clothing to bodies changed. There have been other avant garde designers of course but not a "movement" imo. The other important thing to me is&nbsp;these designers brought fashion back to "art" &amp; aesthetics. To&nbsp;an eastern one rather than a western one though.&nbsp;</p> <p>Okay off the soapbox now - I find it all so fascinating :)</span> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143949 Mon, 20 Jan 2014 01:18:20 +0000 Deborah 1143949@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Caro, yes I agree. Odyssey's style is not AG. I have clearly misused the term in that respect. Her style IMHO is a combination of a number of style elements. I suppose when I really think about it, I would describe her as dressing to a certain 'aesthetic. Does that sound reasonable?</p> <p>I think the conclusion I am coming to is that:</p> <p>1. Avant Garde is demonstrated best by the kind of designs that Anna linked<br /> to. Almost pieces of art if you like. And perhaps not expected to be<br /> worn as seen on the catwalk.</p> <p>2. What I am actually referring to would more accurately be referred to as AG<br /> influences or AG stylings, as opposed to actual AG garments.</p> <p>3 And then there is styling an outfit in an AG manner. Say taking normal<br /> everyday pieces but combining them and styling them in a way that is<br /> fashion forward, unusual and unexpected?</p> <p>I really appreciate this discussion. I not saying this is my final conclusion as I agree that these things are open to interpretation and perception and will always be quite fluid. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143812 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 21:38:38 +0000 Caro in Oz 1143812@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I agree 100% with Anna &nbsp;&amp; &nbsp;would love to see her avant garde take on&nbsp;khakis &amp; a navy blazer :)</p> <p><span>FWIW Deborah, I don't see Odyssey's look as avant garde - edgy maybe but it is very common in parts of Europe (&amp; Melbourne). It is also repetitive - not a bad thing in itself but not avant garde by virtue of the fact that avant garde by definition must always be changing..<br /></span><br />Another question I ponder&nbsp;is - what's the difference between avant garde &amp; costume? </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143640 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 16:39:43 +0000 Angie 1143640@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Interesting discussion.&nbsp;</p> <p>Gaylene, you're right that people define style terms differently. There is no right and wrong here. Just different perceptions. Remember the "Edgy" thread? That prompted me to write a post on how I perceive the word Edgy. Others had a different perception. Here,&nbsp;I found myself nodding along to what Suz, Anna and Denise said, just because we define A-G similarly.&nbsp;</p> <p>Like Edgy, Avant-Garde is on a continuum. You can be a little or a lot Avant-Garde.&nbsp;</p> <p>Also, an ITEM can be Avant-Garde, or an outfit can be Avant-Garde because of the way more regular&nbsp;pieces have been combined to create a less regular visual.&nbsp;</p> <p>And just to make things even more confusing, A-G style is usually Edgy. But not all Edgy style is A-G.</p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143594 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:10:16 +0000 Suz 1143594@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Yeah, Denise - I think that was more or less what I was inarticulately thinking in the past....avant-garde was just a name to describe that particular aesthetic. Hmmm. Well. And now I don't know!&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143524 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 08:19:09 +0000 Lantana 1143524@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Yep Denise, I agree. It's all about the denotation versus connotation of words. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143507 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 07:02:31 +0000 CocoLion 1143507@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>… And using the reasoning above, the jacket would still be called "avant garde" as simply a style descriptor for a certain look, rather than where it stands on the trend bell curve as Lantana points out.</p> <p>Two sides to this coin definitely! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143506 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 06:59:06 +0000 CocoLion 1143506@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>This reminds me of the threads about what is "edgy." &nbsp;There is the liberally defined "edgy" -- which can incorporate soft elements, or hard ones, but is a stylish look that has unexpected elements and relies on juxtaposing styles&nbsp;to achieve&nbsp;interest. &nbsp;As Angie explains it. &nbsp;More about styling than specific things like hardware or the color black.</p> <p>Then there's the "edgy" as you'd expect to see it used&nbsp;in a teen style magazine, as in "What's your Style?" &nbsp;"Are you: &nbsp;Edgy? &nbsp;Girly? &nbsp;Avant Garde?" &nbsp;</p> <p>Now, name some designers that quickly come to mind.&nbsp; For edgy I see a rocker look, a bit tough like Saint Laurent. &nbsp;For girly I see Kate Spade or Leila Rose or&nbsp;something like that. &nbsp;For avant garde I see Japanese designers like Rei Kawabuko, Anne Demuelemeester&nbsp;or… yes, Rick Owens. &nbsp;Even though neither of these is technically avant garde. &nbsp;Anymore.</p> <p>So because this is a fashion forum, I usually think of these terms in the mainstream, conventional fashion context. &nbsp;Not in the true sense of the word, but as the fashion world uses it. &nbsp;These are simply handles, a shorthand for describing a certain look. &nbsp;Does anyone else understand these words, in a fashion context,&nbsp;to mean something similar?</p> <p>Hmmm… maybe I just needlessly re-opened the edgy can of worms when I should just leave them in peace! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143503 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 06:31:07 +0000 Lantana 1143503@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Fashion can be seen as on a bell curve, with avant garde leading the way, mainstream being the bulge in the middle and the trailing edge being dated or passe. Like a wave, what is now at the cutting edge eventually becomes the norm before becoming old fashioned.<br /> I think one can be stylish at any point on that continuum, yes, even stylishly old fashioned. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143482 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 05:10:28 +0000 Gaylene 1143482@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Ah yes, but to me that is the essence of avant-garde--the experimenting and the going where no one has gone before. If we use the term avant-garde to describe fashion that is wearable and available to anyone, what do we call the conceptual, experimental pieces or even the items worn solely by one person because they cannot be reproduced--like Björk's collaborations with Alexander McQueen or even Cher's Bob Mackie outfits? </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143475 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:54:48 +0000 annagybe 1143475@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Gaylene, I think showing St. Martins graduate collections is cheating a bit. They are almost always SHOW pieces and pretty much never get produced. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143473 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:51:53 +0000 Suz 1143473@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Those are cool, too, Gaylene! I am off to check Anna's other links - the slide show to 3 was so great I have to see the rest! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143472 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:51:20 +0000 Deborah 1143472@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Suz, let me doing some searching on line and get back to you. x </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143471 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:51:04 +0000 Suz 1143471@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Wow...I just clicked through the whole slide show to Anna's third link. That is <b>AMAZING</b> stuff. It's not real-life wearable, most of it (although some of it comes pretty close) but it is so interesting and inventive. Talk about making something from nothing. The hair was of course part of it....but the clothes themselves are fascinating, too.&nbsp;</p> <p>Okay. Well, I think we have agreed that we are misusing the term avant-garde here (or I am) on YLF. "Alternate" does not have the same associations for me, Deborah, so I am going to have to come up with another name for the Rick Owens/ Helmut Lang/ and similar designs...maybe The Style Formerly Known As Avant-Garde. &nbsp; ;)&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143468 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:47:55 +0000 Gaylene 1143468@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>My avant-garde offerings: </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde/page/2#post-1143467 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:46:21 +0000 Suja 1143467@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>This is off topic but where have you seen similar jackets? I love this jacket but really want it in a faux leather version. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143462 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:40:52 +0000 Deborah 1143462@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Gaylene I was thinking the same thing about true avant garde garments almost being fantasy peices that are toned down for real life wear. I would be very unlikely to wear any of the outfits that Anna linked to but I might take inspiration from them. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143458 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:38:25 +0000 Gaylene 1143458@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>You beat me to the punch, Suz. Personally, I don't think <i>edgy</i> and <i>avant-garde</i> mean the same thing. I've always defined <i>avant-garde</i> using Caro's definition--something new and experimental. To me, <i>edgy</i> is a term commonly used by fashion mags and stylists to describe an outfit that uses contrasting elements to create interest. Wearing a pair of Docs with a soft dress might be called edgy, but certainly isn't new or experimental. Neither is an asymmetrical hemline or mixing textures in a jacket or pair of pants.</p> <p>To me, avant-garde is best used to describe some of the eye-popping creativity that designers love to show on the runway--the designs that make us revisit our ideas about what clothes ought to look like or how they can be worn. Most avant-garde garments probably couldn't be worn in real life, but we love them because they test the outer limits of our fashion imagination. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143457 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:36:30 +0000 Deborah 1143457@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>True Suz, We have an expression here "alternate" . I grew up using it to describe fashion and music that was not mainstream. I see Odyssey's look here as alternate, maybe no AG but for me it is edgy. I don't see people in my town walking around looking like this...hence it is alternate.</p> <p>Anna that is a good point. Perhaps we need to be talking aesthetics? Those examples you linked to are definitely cutting edge. The third one is the one I find most appealing Rick Owens appears to have found his niche and designs for those who love a certain dark aesthetic. But again perspective comes in to the discussion. In he world of fashion perhaps RO is not AG but in the real world I live in.. it would be. Does that make sense?</p> <p>p.s. I love Rick! </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143455 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:32:43 +0000 Suz 1143455@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Anna, I agree completely with you. Those are avant-garde. Rick Owens is...Rick Owens. Whatever he is. It's not avant-garde any more, although we tend to call it that for want of a better way to describe it.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143454 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:31:15 +0000 Suz 1143454@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Hmmm. I wouldn't call this avant-garde. I would call it modern and a bit edgy, although I'm not really sure about edgy, because it's not really unexpected.&nbsp;</p> <p>I like it, by the way. Those pants are really cool! And yeah, her hair....</p> <p>So...I don't see it as avant garde but I do see it as expressive of that aesthetic, somehow. Whatever that aesthetic is. Urban minimalist?&nbsp;</p> <p> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143452 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:27:32 +0000 annagybe 1143452@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>See the thing is I do not see the Rick Owens aesthetic as avant garde anymore. He does the same things over and over again. It is look but it's not this<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.style.com/fashionshows/review/S2014RTW-YJIYMOTO/">http://www.style.com/fashionsh.....-YJIYMOTO/</a></p> <p>or this</p> <p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.style.com/fashionshows/review/S2014RTW-VIKROLF/">http://www.style.com/fashionsh.....W-VIKROLF/</a></p> <p>or this</p> <p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.style.com/fashionshows/review/S2014RTW-JNWATNBE">http://www.style.com/fashionsh.....W-JNWATNBE</a> </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143449 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:24:22 +0000 Deborah 1143449@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>It does seem that a great deal of what I would consider AG styling seems to have Japanese origins or at least inspirations. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143444 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:18:09 +0000 Suz 1143444@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Yeah, Anna - agreed - you can make it edgy for sure. But is edgy the same as avant-garde? I think it's something different.&nbsp;</p> <p>And maybe the way we use the term&nbsp;avant-garde is wrong. (Or maybe the way I use it, at least).&nbsp;</p> <p>Maybe what I call "avant-garde" I <b>SHOULD</b> be calling "Japanese influenced draping/ origami/ or whatever....or "high modernist aesthetic"...or....I don't really <b>know!</b>&nbsp;&nbsp;Something.&nbsp; </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143443 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:15:17 +0000 Deborah 1143443@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>Ladies you are all getting the wisdom button:)</p> <p>Just doing some blog catch ups and saw Odyssey's latest. I thought this was a good illustration of the point that has been made about the wearer and styling. This outfit almost reads modern classic to me. Theory Blazer, sleeveless turtleneck and skinny pants...BUT... Odyssey has turned this into, IMHO, a pretty edgy and perhaps AG look. What makes it for me is:</p> <p>- the all black<br /> - the detail on the pants &amp; design, there seems to be a 'strap' draping<br /> - Odyssey's very cool platinum blond hair style<br /> - Overall minimal look, no accessories that I can see</p> <p>Say I wore this, with my former neat bob, some earrings, watch, maybe a long pendant and pumps... the look changes completely although the core pieces are the same.</p> <p>What do you think?</p> <p>Anna, I think you could make anything look edgy (that's a compliment) and I think it has a lot to do with who you are and how you see things. </p> https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/topic/ask-angie-all-when-is-avant-garde-not-avant-garde#post-1143441 Sun, 19 Jan 2014 04:09:34 +0000 annagybe 1143441@https://youlookfab.com/welookfab/ <p>I think it's all in the styling. If I make an effort I'm sure&nbsp;I can make khaki pants and a navy double breasted blazer&nbsp;edgy. </p>